UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Suspect 55cm DLV?

Reported as being marketed in the UK by a Russian dealer. Stamped J A Henckels, and similar outline to the Weyersberg type. If postwar they are a very convincing effort. What do you think?

This is an original 55cm by Henckels that I owned thirty years back, it is of the Eickhorn pattern outline. The accoutrements were an add on by me.

Very interesting Barry
It certainly looks good to me. These were made for such a very short time I don't think that standardized products were made. Yours, I definitely agree is all Eickhorn with the exception of the blade. Very likely Henckels bought the parts from Eickhorn for a special order. The 1st example has thin scabbard staples, where as Weyersberg tended use thick ones. All the components of these things were special so it certainly would take an ambitious faker to attempt one.
What do you see that leads you to believe it's suspect?

Certainly appears authentic to me.

Hi Barry the only thing i can see that i don't like is the tang going right the way through the pommel,but i have not seen enough examples to know if this was standard practice on early DLV

The tang feeding through the pommel is exactly why I'm convinced this dagger is original. Early DLV's had the peened over tang on the pommel to prevent disassembly. The peen looks untouched. This method was used on other Imperial era daggers.

I see nothing wrong. If this is a fake we are in BIG trouble.

Reported retail price asked by the Russian importer is, £3k ea. In hand they are mint in every respect, but appear to me to be artificially aged (except the leather covering which appears brand new). I said they were very convincing and invited opinions, thank you to everyone. I can offer no evidence of them being fake. Cautious by hard learned experience and just uneasy about them being sourced by a Russian dealer. I have seen three others of these in 12 months, all identical, they may be "right".

The blade on the second dagger I show is in fact of the "Eickhorn" form with a pronounced ricasso, I believe the WKC entry was also of the "Eickhorn" form.

These 3 daggers were in the UK. There is another identical example presently for sale on the Helmuut Weitze dealership site in Germany and priced @ 5500 euros.

Can you give us a link to the Russian site?
I will watch for these at the show next month.

Paul

I do not have an internet link to pass on to you but have seen these daggers displayed/offered (singly) by a Russian stallholder at a particular UK show I attend at Farnham. Their next show date is 5th Feb', will post any information arising.

Kind regards
Barry

I remember when they first surfaced 4-5 years ago, mint as hell and very convincing. Supposedly 5 or 6 where found in an old fire department.
Too good to be true according to me.

Anyway, Tom Johnson said they where bad.

Kris

A 55cm DLV Mint with like new leather and selling, or should I say asking, 3K BPS....and it stayed on the table? And they started showing up 5 years ago? And I guess they found nothing else in this 'old fire department' ?

Wasn't there also a thread here awhile back on some really good Postschutz daggers seeming to have roots into Russia?

Although I would need to see it 'in-hand' there is something here not right like it should be a $10,000 dagger if it was real. And they shouldn't be showing up all mint and recently.
Sort of reminds me of the similar Czech ground dug SSTK's.

Obviously Tom Johnson knew about them already.

Whomever is making these is also making the Postschutz and perhaps more. Great repro, very scary fakes indeed.

-Serge-

Over the past couple of years, went on sale a lot of dirks DLV55 Henckel manufacturer(During this time was about 10 dirks.). What has almost everything in a state of NM or M-. Although the book Wittmann No photo dirks this manufacturer only one mention of him as a producer. Most Henckel DLV55 for sale in the former Soviet Union and Europe. (Do you remember the topic about the theft of a dirk in the gun show.)
Very interesting photos provided Bari Brown. It is possible that the manufacturer ONLY used the same guard as Eickhorn. Quality fake which is on sale in Russia and Ukraine can often be identified only by comparing subjects with known originals. Often the production of copies of rare or dirks used pictures (Teno Leader scabbard), or photos are not the best quality. It is also not known of cut samples Henckel DLV55.


Nothing would argue just express version. If I'm wrong let more experienced colleagues, correct me.

Here's another one but stolen at a European show:

http://www.flandersmilitaria.be/index.ph...483&lang=EN

I think I had this one in my hand years ago and was for sale at 5000 euro. I passed

Seems like that's not the only fake Henckels in their stable.
http://www.flandersmilitaria.be/index.ph...=55&lang=EN

Or does someone here believe that one is period ?

Could we be uncovering a new 'east-block' fakes here with Henckels repros in different models?

-Serge-

Gary needs to see this one.

IF this DLV is a fake, I agree with the others that said that this would be a big problem for the hobby. IF they can make a fake as convincing as this, it's only a matter of time before they can make equally convincing Teno's, chained SS, diplomatic daggers or other rare pieces. For me this is the reason that I never buy ANY 5k+ dagger. The more expensive the dagger, the more effort the faker can put in to it, to make it the best possible fake.
Still hope the DLV that is shown turns out to be real

Danny

Yet another example has been reported to me, in a PM, as being sold to a UK collector. The evidence remains circumstantial, but for me it is just too many examples of a rare dagger by the same maker "coming out" in a very short time line. A definite fake attribution needs to be discovered/disclosed so that collectors/dealers who have been hit can seek restitution. Please keep information coming to this forum, thank you.

They are already. I know TeNo leaders for sure as I been given photos of those. Been told Postschutz but no photos. The source, or close to the source, sells them for around half what a real one goes for- but these pass for the authentic examples!

....and now I hear Tom Johnson is getting out, yes selling his business. Rumor I heard from 'reliable source'. If true, could it be because of this new generation of super fake daggers?

Serge

Pictures can be very deceiving and it is very difficult to evaluate the authenticity of an artifact based on pics alone.
Personally, I wouldn't be worried about those "super fakes" and I'm convinced that none of these daggers would pass a "hand on" inspection, I mean none.

Concerning the state of the hobby, I would be very worried for those that are in only as an investment strategy, the morning after could be pretty sad.
I honestly don't think that it will get to the state it once was. Dealers and collectors alike, including myself, have caused great damage to this hobby.
Damage ? Yes, by agreeing to pay these crazy inflated prices asked by dealers.

What happens when a dealer get's out of business, those his COA still stands for something or do we just throw it in the garbage can ???????

The prices of the rare daggers have gone "sky-high" over the last say 10 or 15 years. I certainly would't look at these daggers as a great investment-oportunity now. They were 15 years ago

Danny

Just to clear up what Serge has posted a link to, the short Henckels hunting dagger is completely 100% real, there are a few about like that one, I own two of them and they are listed in the Henckels catalouges, they come in various lengths and made in different materials, I've seen both the blued steel and gilded brass finishes.

Cheers

Gary

This is very scary…
I remember about 2 years ago I saw a few SS daggers coming our of the Czech Rep. which were very very convincing…

I hate to repeat myself again and again, but there is too much money in this hobby.
Too much temptation to make high quality fakes.

If this is true, it is a sad day for us.

Careful hunting,
Johnny

Gary,
To me it looks of recent manufacture.
It also looks to me as there are etch imbalances that should not be seen like this in a period etch, or am I perhaps mistaken?

-Serge



Image taken from 'Flanders Militaria' and posted under 'Fair Use' provisions.

I dont know guys that DLV looks good to me but Pats right you really need it in hand. But if you think about it to manufacture something like that cant be cheap, it not something you can whittle up in your garage.I wouldnt think it would be cost effective. As per the hunting dagger is henckels currently in business. i know some companys are still in business and manufacturing third reich daggers that didnt have the swaz on them.

Honesty, for me this is pretty terrifying…
It is only a question of time before the value of these daggers justifies the labor and materials needed to make a "superfake".

Look, we all like to believe that daggers are somehow different from badges, and TK rings, but it is just more parts. Just because daggers are more complex does not mean that they are not "fakable".

It is just a question of "is it worth it" to the fakers.
I just think we may be deluding ourselves to think that cottage makers in the TR period, with 1930s technology, war shortages, material rationing and bombs dropping around their heads were able to create something so special that a well funded Czech artisan could not create today. Have you seen the incredible hand-work on the guns that they make!?!?

I cannot help but wonder if, one day, everything in this hobby is going to be like SA Rohm daggers and TK rings are now:
If you buy a Rohm, you need a Gailen COA (I have one!), if you buy a TK ring, you need a Boyle signature.

Maybe it´s happening already, maybe the buyer of that hunting dagger up there will ask Gary for a COA... Makes some sense.

In another 10 years will we be seeking out THE authority in each various dagger category for a COA to CYA?
I call "dibbs" on NSFK.

Just a thought…

Johnny

An then how long would it be before the COA s are faked ? . I personaly think that this hobby is finished as an investment , Fine by me .maybe we can get back to the basics an enjoying the items an books that go with them . prices are well over inflated an some of the major dealers are in denial TW for one ,, $1400 for a Army Dagger the mind boggles ???? A old collector once said to me " the dealers have taken a nice hobby an turned it into Big Business " Enough said !

I want to be as clear as I can about this next statement,

"The short Henckels hunting dagger that is shown above is 100% from the Weimar period"

Nothing more to say on it, please do not try to lump this particular dagger into the melting pot because it is also a Henckels and it is also on that Website.
I'm going to say it again so everybody knows

"The short Henckels hunting dagger that is shown above is 100% from the Weimar period"

Thanks

Gary

Hey Gary,

If you are referring to my post, I did not question this piece, just posting a hypothetical.
I was just using that hunting piece as an example. It was a convenient reference point since it was sitting a few posts above.

Perhaps it was a bad example, but my point remains the same. With values high enough, and fakes good enough, we will have to increasingly rely upon expert opinions and COAs just to sleep at night.

This is not about that hunting dagger, this is about all daggers…

All the best,
Johnny

Well before we all it the panic button I think one needs to be looked at in hand. I agree it sure is suspicious that a few have just popped up as of late. But we also know that medal collectors are aware of a few "hordes" of original mint medals found in the last several years. As I say, I will be on the look-out at the SOS. Would be great if one of our Russian participants could contact the Russian dealer. Perhaps he would even be willing to engage in conversation here or on one of the Russian Forums.

I remember a few years back Harvey Riley telling me and a mate about a stash (i think 7 or 8 ) of diplomat daggers found in a Russian scrap yard they had to be disassembled and smuggled out in pieces,then reassembled once out of the country,i think he had 2 or 3 of them at the time.so you never know.

In my honest opinion,

This is the way I see it. If your a dealer, and you only sell Army daggers. You have 2 choices. You can have a website with pictures of your expensive daggers you sell, or you can have a website with inexpensive daggers with nothing on it.

It's not like every other day someone walks into your place of business with 5 or 6 Army daggers for sale. So the supply to a degree is limited. So as a businessman you slowly increase your prices until you reach a happy medium of inventory and no empty shelves.

If these dealers sold these Army daggers for $400.00 and $500.00 the shelves would be empty and there would be a waiting list a mile long.

I believe it was Pat that said, we as collectors are the ones that did the damage to this hobby by paying the inflated prices. We're all guilty of it. I looked for a police officer sword for over a year and finally bought one from Tom Johnson for I think $1395.00, I thought it was a good price. I think it's still listed as sold on his site.

I do think some of the dealers got out of hand with their inflated prices however it is what the market will bear, because trust me if we all got together and stopped buying from the dealers the prices will come down or they would go out of business.

The only problem with that scenario is the big dealers already made their money and this would only hurt the smaller dealers. It's kind of like this recession we're all in together, it's not hurting the 1% of the U.S. population that controls like 41% of the money/wealth.

Before I end this I would like to say that I agree 100% hands down with Pat also when he said "I wouldn't be worried about those "super fakes" and I'm convinced that none of these daggers would pass a "hand on" inspection, I mean none". I truly believe that.

Just my two cents.

Thanks

Rich

Johnny

My post is not directed at you at all, I don't want to see things lumped together to try and make a spurious case for a new breed of fakes using the Henckels logo, I can see no proof in this at all, I personally have inspected the Henckels dagger that Barry started this thread about and I have no problems with it at all, though I must say that I am no expert in these type of daggers and when I inspected it I did not know what the dealer was asking for it. I do not see a problem either that there has been a few Henckels long DLV's around lately, why couldn't it be pure co-incidence, as much that as anything else I think.

Gary

Returning to the purpose of this thread: I have not seen a 55cm DLV by Eickhorn in the Weyersberg design, nor have I seen a Weyersberg 55cm DLV in the Eickhorn design. They may exist, and it would be helpful if members could comment. However, I question that any manufacturer would have incurred the tooling up expense to produce such a limited run dagger in both designs. The Henckels 55cm that I acquired for my collection in 1979 was of the Eickhorn design; I did not see another Henckels 55cm until the recent crop now available in the Weyersberg outline. As was stated in an early posting, Wittmann lists but does not picture a Henckels 55cm in his Luft' book. The 55cm DLV used to be considered one of the rarest of the production daggers, not often available to collectors. Anything, e.g., "last out of the factory cellars discovery", is both possible and explainable, of course.

Barry.. As far as i can tell all they have to retool is the pommel and crossguard and i bet if other companys already had them they could buy them from them or buy those parts from those companys.

Totally agree with Barry. Short production period, the Order of the new length (cutting), a rare producer for that type of daggers. And now we have a lot of full Henckel in excellent condition.

Is it possible that members of the community to check their collections, certainly someone that is daggers or good pictures (like Barry) Henckel DLV55 (full or cut) that he purchased long year ago, for more informations.

Where are you getting lots of them. As far as i can tell from this thread we are talking 6-7 of them.What does concern me is the condition of them. Only time will tell how many are out there.

Why purchased different guards for one model, for short time. Not sense for busines. I think Henckel used only one type guard Eickhorn or Wyersberg.

Well for one thing i dont think they realized they were only going to be making them for a short time. Im wondering if DLV member were complaining about the size of them and how clunky they were and they came up with the flighters knife. Maybe Eickhorn threatened them about using there pommel and crossguard design. Maybe they were paying Eichorn to use that design and they decided not to keep paying for it and made there own or buy from a company (with the other design) that was cheaper. Im not saying they are good or bad> But just bewcause there are 5-6-7 of them out there doesnt mean there bad. If more and more show up, then yes there is a problem.

Den70..i do agree with your point about finding someone with this same dagger that was gotten years ago.

I sure hope there one at the SOS. I would love to get a hands on look at it. Paul (lakeside trader) see you at the show if you spot one before me let me know.

And forge a different blade.
The Eickhorn type has a flat and pronounced ricasso while the Weyersberg type does not have this feature. It is always possible that Henckels bought in completed daggers from Eickhorn and then stamped their TM on the blades. Not so with Weyersberg, as the scabbard fitting rivets are simple wire and not decoratively shrouded as are Weyersberg's; and the chain assembly snap clip lacks the number found stamped on the Weyersberg clip reverse.

And make an Eickhorn pattern scabbard.
All of this are in Mint condition.

I just keep thinking of all the work involved to recreate all the special components to make these. Even if someone made 10 of them, 10 x 5k each=$50k. There is no way you could make all these special components fit them together and age them for that. Just look at the pommel, the swas's were inserted to very close tolerances. You don't just do that in your basement. You need all the right tools. Think about that blade, a special length, forged and plated. You have to create the logo in hardened steel and press it into the blade.
I worked in a tool shop for years and trust me the costs of such a project is way up there.
Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see such a venture as profitable.

I agree with Paul, but towards an unknowing mind outside of our own realm ,, these fakes are geared mostly to the newer collectors and somewhat challenging to the seasoned collector and the dealer. To start a business one needs to dump alot of money into it,, in the beginning and after a few years the investment is recovered. IMO I believe there are more "newer collectors" than there are seasoned. The art of marketing is appealing to the eye first,, then impulse is set in motion. Yes i agree it is costly to go out of ones way to create these fakes.. but all businesses, knowing there is a "hot market" still alive and desirable will spend that kind of money if they have the right backers. I dont think there are a handful of chimps doing this in their garage or rented warehouse,, I believe it is on a grander scale, and with alot more powerful people involved. The drug trade has never disappeared and cartels and drug runners all the way down to the street scum dealers are always thinking of new ways to reestablish themselves when there is a temporary setback. They just keeping moving and not staying in one place for too long of a period.

Common sence would dictate tht it is a huge effort and potential expense to recreate daggers.

But, look at all the Hungarian reproductions being turned out. These are better quality daggers than the originals. Beautifully etched and gold plated blades. All selling originally for about $75. The producers are making money on these.

We now see the same thing with the Italian daggers being produced at the factory and sold wholesale for about $50.

When I lived in Poland, I had a good friend who was a retired University Professor in metallergy.
We were looking at guns at an antique store when he pointed to an old pisol and said that one is mine. I said you mean you use to own it. No, he said, I built it.
there are 16 cap and ball antique pistols being traded on the antique market, that he built in his home with a metal lathe. He did this so he could trade for real antiques.

The point being, when you live in an economy where $200 per month is a good wage, and you have all the expertise of crafstmen, you can turn out reproductions. Especially if they sell for $5,000 each.

Back to common sense. Numerous near mint daggers show up with an uncommon maker. Really guys.

You're not wrong Paul, I also always believed the task to be impossible for anyone to be able to make the "perfect" fake.
The machines that were uses 80 years ago had their own and unique flaws that cannot be duplicated with today's high tech computerized machines.
If the hobby slows down, it won't be because of the fakes but merely because of its high prices and yet, look at Craig's auction going on at the moment, prices are still very high.

Good point on the 70 year old machinery.

Which makes my case. These daggers are being producd using the same machinery used to produce daggers 70 years ago.

Those familiar with the former Russian occupied countries know that they did not replace equipment. I bought Binoculers built using confiscated German machinery. Confiscated equipment from WWII making Binoculars today.

It is the same with the Hungarian daggers being produced at the origiinal factories using original dies and equipment. The same with Austrian daggers.

The Russians reproduce Russian Honor daggers, why not these.

As for reasons people leave the hobby, I have definitely changed my collecting behavior due to the reproductions and books that proclaim reproductions and fantasy daggers to be original. I have sold off most of my collection because of this. The pattern is always the same. Suddenly, a large collection of extremely rare daggers is up for sale. All near mint specialty pieces. Then shortly, another, then another, as the prices of originals is cut by 50 to 60%.

Of course, in the German area, there is much more scrutiny and expertise so it is not so easy to pass off fakes and parts daggers. But, what has the appearance of the Czech SS daggers done for buyers confidence in SS daggers.

I think the treacherous market place will definitley keep people out of the market.

Gentlemen...I think we all agree the object to fakers making them is money. Its not like the 50s 60s 70s when collectors hardly know one another and there were very few if any military shows. With the internet and the closeness of collectors it isnt long before the collector knows there is a problem with a new fake dagger. So no one will buy it (except for the few that get burned at first).Lets say 50 get out there at 5 grand that 250,000 not enough to make money, for the time, labor, effort and machinery. So 50 get out at 5 grand, the gig is up and everyone knows there fakes. The price will plummet. No one (collector wise) will buy them. Know there down to 100 buck apiece collectors might buy one every once in a while to fill a space or some non collector just because he wants a wall hanger. With as well informed as the collecting community is i cant see any profit in it for as much as it would cost.

Thank goodness edged weapons from the TR were all made in Solingen, Ruskies didn't get their hands on them.

Pat: Not only in Solingen. BTW have you heard about POW camp in Solingen suburb?
Earl (Rick) Schreiber: Some time ago I bought a rare and really expensive dagger for 30-40% less than anywhere. From a known GDC member. Was it a good deal or did I buy a fake? I know that it is 100% original, but so-called "experts" named it a fake, as the price was unbelievable.
----
If someone interested I can show a Russian Honor dirk in Gold for 35K to compare what dagger is easy to reproduce. I also have a pics of its copy made in Russia. It would be nice and interesting to compare them here at GDC.

Now it looks like there are more than the supposed 6 by Henckels. That is usually the story that's floated with the 'initial release' until more surface.
One of the best lines regarding this point was made by Frederick Stephens in his book Reproduction?Recognition! when discussing the Paul Muller SS prototype dagger; " It is a curious feature of this extremly rare dagger, that of the three original manufactured, five of them have so far turned up".

That was in 1981. Now how many of the original Three Paul Muller SS prototype daggers are to be found? There has to be at least 15 that were sold in the last 20 years. Every other 'advanced' closet collection in Europe probably has one.
However in 1965, according to the authority at the time, there were only three.

-Serge-

When you produce daggers and sell them for let's say $ 50 a piece, you can only make a profit when you produce several hundreds of them. Otherwise the production-costs per dagger would be way too high. The problem is, when you produce several hundreds, you will never be able to sell them all as authentic (and rare) TR pieces. So I don't think the problem is as big as some think. There will allways be a few extremely well made fakes, but I also think it is just too expensive to produce one or two daggers once in a while to make a lot of money, even in Hungary. I agree with Lakesidetrader on this subject.

Danny

I agree with Paul and Pat,
Do I think it's possible to make a "super fake", yes, but not one that would pass a professional hand on inspection. I just think it's highly unlikely and not feasible. This is my theory. When counterfeiters counterfeit money they don't make 50's and 100's, they make 5's, 10's, and 20's, their are more of them around. If they're going to fake a 55 DLV, in order to recoup costs they would have to flood the market...they can't, it's a "rare dagger". In order to make a perfect fake the first hurdle is to make the perfect dagger...not too easy, but now they have to make it look 70 years old. I'm not sure which one of those two things is harder. I posted this picture from Tom Johnson's German Daggers of World War II reference book volume 4 page 1023. These are dies of various dagger and sword parts from the period, they're still around and in my opinion this is the only way to make anything convincing enough to look like an original. HOWEVER, there is still the task of making it look 70 years old and that is what I have a hard time believing. I'm not trying to run this thread astray but if anyone has ever watched the Antiques Road Show, there is reproduced furniture and tables on there all the time and guess what...it doesn't fool the appraisers...not once. Their made from the same materials, put together the same way, but when they take a drawer out or take it apart it's missing the patina. I have heard that these dagger counterfeiters soak the daggers in piss, bury them in the back yard and so on. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it. You can reproduce a dagger, it won't be cheap, it for sure won't be easy, but you can only reproduce the duration of time with the duration of time.


Rich


PHOTO FROM TOM JOHNSON GERMAN DAGGERS OF WORLD WAR II A PHOTOGRAPHIC REFERENCE page 1023

Rich,
Sorry, but I have to disagree with your posting above. To me it shows you must not have been in this hobby a long time.

The reality of the reproduction situation is this; EVERY expert in this field has been fooled by a 'in-hand' authenticity inspection at one time or another. Naturally, few will want to admit it, fewer yet want to be reminded.
And if you believe what you see in those staged antique shows on T.V. - well...let's for now stick to blades.

Are you looking for a screamer TeNo leader? Here's one that could be had.

Images provided to me by 'confidential source' and used here with their permission.


It's got a mint blade, with full sharp burnishing on the logo and eagle.


And the scabbard is also super clean with all burnishing.


Here is a full shot...You want it beore it gets away??? Ya gotta move quick!



Well save your money. This is a current super fake TeNo Leader. I have not inspected
it 'in-hand', however I'm told it has fooled many a expert. Is it a perfect fake? No.
There is a way to tell...but that's for another time (no PM's on what that is please)
Billy G. knows about these...but how many others?

All I'm saying is don't get so confident that an expert can tell. When good new model
repro comes on the market many get taken.
Here is the west we are mostly behind the times in this area anyway IMO.
When the new patina repro Postschutz came out it was newer colleages from Russia who proved that it was a fake in this excellent thread.
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=248379#Post248379

I felt it was important to make a point here but it took away the initial 55cm DVL thread. Moderator please
feel free to delete this post if non-conforming.

-Serge-

I have allways thought that it is impossible to fake crossgrain and I don't see it on this one either nor have I ever seen convincing crossgrain on any fake dagger. I'm wondering of others have seen convincing crossgrain on a fake.

Danny

I have to admit that this Teno is indeed a very well made fake and that it would fool most of us if we were to base our judgments on pics alone.
However, I still doubt that it would pass a hand on inspection but only if you knew what to look for.
As for the Poschutz, it was easily discarded by Ron and Houston on pics alone so there's no panic on this one.
Now, I will take a closer look at the Poschutz that I bought from Serge couple of years ago, haaaaaaaaaaaaa.

LOL
Sorry to say, Serge, but the same guys knew NOTHING about 3R period iteams only 3 years ago...
the same den70 anounced that SA High Leader from H.Coates is a fake, what was especialy interesting as he has never seen one in hands... This is just one example I have seen myself.
Have anybody heard a theory that all blind Eick logos are fakes? No? I had. I guess you will soon.
the same den70 tried to resell some TENO daggers as originals, even now he insists they are good. Hard to imagine what kind of a TENO book he will published.
At the same thread about Postshutz daggers at the most popular Russian forum again the same den70 was caught red handed trying to fool members but nobody knows about it here.
Here are some threads about it:
http://ww2.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=464332&st=0
ww2.ru/forum/index.php?

Here are some pics of TENO fakes from a well known and highly respected expert on TENO daggers from Ukraine.

Next time, if you want to be consider as a serious forum member be sure you know the exact story.

Serge,
I would like to admit to the forum that I don't know everything about every dagger, but I didn't just walk through the door yesterday.

Just to clarify things, I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, I'm not trying to sway your opinion, and I'm not trying to get you on the same side of the fence as me. Your entitled to believe what ever you want. I was merely stating my opinion, as I'm entitled. That's what makes this country so great.

I've been collecting TR daggers/swords for about 12 years now, and don't hold me to it as I didn't write down the year I started. I have been around antiques my whole life as my parents were collectors. I have also been collecting hand guns, long guns and knives for 30 years.(none of that fantasy stuff)

You said EVERY expert has been fooled one time or another. I don't doubt what your saying, however I never said these "super fakes" will never fool anyone at any time. It's bound to happen.

What I would really like to know is how many experts have been fooled lately as there is more information at our finger tips now than ever before. If you have 2 collectors that have only collected for 10 years but the first collector collected from 1960 to 1970 and the second collector collected from 2000 to 2010 the second collector will be far far more knowledgeable for the simple fact that a large amount of the information just wasn't available.


Rich

Rather than get into personalities, the point was made that forums like this protect the members as best can be. I think this is correct.

I recall making a lot of noise about one Irish dealer who was selling fakes on Ebay and getting thousands each. We disclosed his name and email and shortly after I was contacted by someone in LA who asked me to prove the ultra rare personalized Hungarian Honor dagger he just purchased was a run of the mill reproduction. I proved it and the dealer disappeared from Ebay.

Also, the fakes are identified and discussed here with the help of our European and Canadian fellows.

I have a 200 year old Samarii sword blade. All experts agree it is a proper blade 200 years old. It has a bogus signature on it that was done at the time of manufacture. Fakes have always been there.

So please let us recognize that people have their beliefs. and let us not get personal or defensive. Please

We are all here to learn and help fellow collectors.
Serge has always been a generous contributor to this forum and I thank him for his work and research.
Now, if Serge get's burn on a super fake, then we are all in trouble.

When I started this thread I was counting on the collective experience and wisdom of our members to provide an overall balanced view of the problem I posed with the subject 55cm DLV. I have not been disappointed. I do not use the term expert as imo it fell into disrepute in our hobby many years ago. A definition of expert once published in pre-internet days was, "somone who likes your stuff". My call on this particular dagger remains that they are reproduction but that I cannot yet prove my statement beyond reasonable doubt.

Pat, and others by P.M., thanks for the comments of support.

I only wanted to help and say that we should never feel comfortable with what we know as that is determined by our past experience. Keep your eyes and ears open as there are constantly new things to learn in this hobby.
I'm still learning.

Thank you Barry for starting this thread on the 55cm DLV. Best one here in a long time IMHO.

-Serge-

Barry, that would be the way I would call it also.
Too many minty rare daggers showing up all at one time by the same maker.

Let's see what Tom Wittmann has to say about this model (Luftwaffe Book, pg. 3);
"All DLV Officer Patterns are to be considered extremely rare. With the exception of very advanced colllections,these daggers are almost never seen. This writer is familiar with examples bearing the trademarks of Paul Weyersberg, Adolf Braun, Carl Eickhorn, J.A. Henckels and Carl Heidelberg."

Here is one I picked up recently some of you may recall. A Carl Heidelberg, cut down to 19". Hope it's real - wasn't cheap.
But glad it wasn't a Henckels!

-Serge-

Rich,
Our opinions are all we state here. Mine was different than yours this time and that's OK. I didn't mean to sound brash but it looks like it was taken that way. Different opinions are what forums are about and healthy for the hobby, but delivery of them can sometimes be ackward. Many a time it is those differing opinions that lead to a new discovery in the hobby.
BTW, I enjoy watching your enthusiasm for the hobby and contribution in this forum.

-Serge-

A Carl Heidelberg, cut down to 19".
[/quote]

Congrats. All as it should be for a Heidelberg. I always like to see a silver plate finish on the early DLVs', unlike as seen on the subject/suspect Henckels which is not silvered. The few Heidelbergs that I have seen have been "cut down" and may or may not actually have been their only entry. If other members own or have seen a full 55cm Heidelberg it would be good to have a picture posted here.

Wow now that's nice

It sure would be nice to see these TENO " fakes" in hand. There certainly is some convincing flakeing on that TENO Officer. No one seems to want to admit they have held one and the reasons for their opinions. IMO this is BS and just tends to cause panic. If you don't want to tell the whole story what good does it do. If the fakers can make one this good they will certainly soon correct any mistake with or without any "super secret" revealed on this or any other forum. I think most collectors are aware ( or should be ) of the casting mark under the cross guard swaz on originals. Is this the big secret? or? Come on, what is it--I'm sure ALL will be revealed at the SOS anyhow.

IMO, the real big secret is that TENO has different casting marks in fact.

Wow! Nice job.

I know that this thread has gone a little cold, but I have to say, I am interested to have a look around at the SOS this year to see whether any of these "new" pieces pop up.

Even if we cannot agree about the DLV, I think there is much more support and evidence concerning the TeNo, Postal and other high quality fakes (even the SAs recently dissected by Dave) is persuasive.
In light of these recent fakes and the ever "improving" trend in the quality of these fakes, I am definitely on the side who errs with caution.

I know that these fakes make everyone nervous, collectors and dealers alike (although perhaps for nearly equal yet opposite reasons), so I think there may actually be some inherent motivation on all our parts, to find a way to justify chalking these suspicious pieces up to being " a new variant"?

Why are so many "new variants" popping up these days anyway?
Your telling me that we were able to identify nearly all makers of SA daggers decades ago, but "new variant" daggers are just popping up like flowers?

Is this the real story, or just the way we want to hear it?
Keeps the hobby interesting, doesn´t it?

In light of all of this, I take Serge´s information seriously and am behind the "whistleblowers".

Good hunting and looking forward to seeing you all at the SOS!

Johnny

I started this thread in order to gain opinions and information that might support a dispute. I obtained one of these "Henckels 55cm dlv's" from a UK dealer who has refunded to me the "cost/price" to him of the dagger. He has stated to me that the piece came from a "reliable source" - (not disclosed to me). As I have no verifiable proof I have given the dealer the benefit of the doubt as to his non complicity in a fraud and written off the balance of the retail price as a financial loss. Since starting the thread I have had several PMs' (including a PM from a major UK dealer, but who has asked not to be identified) confirming that the dagger I illustrated at the start of this thread is post war and has certainly been available in Europe in recent times. I noted earlier in the thread that Tom Johnson is reported as declaring these daggers a fake. However, there is no doubt that vested interests of collectors and dealers might lead to instances of denial, e.g., I have been advised that a UK collector who has been hit with one of these daggers should not be told "because it would hurt his pride". I have been round the block many times with TR edged weapons since getting my first as a kid in 1945. I have also been caught before over the long years of collecting. Denial can be the enemy of honest collectors and the friend of the scammer.