UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Suspect 55cm DLV?

Well for one thing i dont think they realized they were only going to be making them for a short time. Im wondering if DLV member were complaining about the size of them and how clunky they were and they came up with the flighters knife. Maybe Eickhorn threatened them about using there pommel and crossguard design. Maybe they were paying Eichorn to use that design and they decided not to keep paying for it and made there own or buy from a company (with the other design) that was cheaper. Im not saying they are good or bad> But just bewcause there are 5-6-7 of them out there doesnt mean there bad. If more and more show up, then yes there is a problem.

Den70..i do agree with your point about finding someone with this same dagger that was gotten years ago.

I sure hope there one at the SOS. I would love to get a hands on look at it. Paul (lakeside trader) see you at the show if you spot one before me let me know.

And forge a different blade.
The Eickhorn type has a flat and pronounced ricasso while the Weyersberg type does not have this feature. It is always possible that Henckels bought in completed daggers from Eickhorn and then stamped their TM on the blades. Not so with Weyersberg, as the scabbard fitting rivets are simple wire and not decoratively shrouded as are Weyersberg's; and the chain assembly snap clip lacks the number found stamped on the Weyersberg clip reverse.

And make an Eickhorn pattern scabbard.
All of this are in Mint condition.

I just keep thinking of all the work involved to recreate all the special components to make these. Even if someone made 10 of them, 10 x 5k each=$50k. There is no way you could make all these special components fit them together and age them for that. Just look at the pommel, the swas's were inserted to very close tolerances. You don't just do that in your basement. You need all the right tools. Think about that blade, a special length, forged and plated. You have to create the logo in hardened steel and press it into the blade.
I worked in a tool shop for years and trust me the costs of such a project is way up there.
Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see such a venture as profitable.

I agree with Paul, but towards an unknowing mind outside of our own realm ,, these fakes are geared mostly to the newer collectors and somewhat challenging to the seasoned collector and the dealer. To start a business one needs to dump alot of money into it,, in the beginning and after a few years the investment is recovered. IMO I believe there are more "newer collectors" than there are seasoned. The art of marketing is appealing to the eye first,, then impulse is set in motion. Yes i agree it is costly to go out of ones way to create these fakes.. but all businesses, knowing there is a "hot market" still alive and desirable will spend that kind of money if they have the right backers. I dont think there are a handful of chimps doing this in their garage or rented warehouse,, I believe it is on a grander scale, and with alot more powerful people involved. The drug trade has never disappeared and cartels and drug runners all the way down to the street scum dealers are always thinking of new ways to reestablish themselves when there is a temporary setback. They just keeping moving and not staying in one place for too long of a period.

Common sence would dictate tht it is a huge effort and potential expense to recreate daggers.

But, look at all the Hungarian reproductions being turned out. These are better quality daggers than the originals. Beautifully etched and gold plated blades. All selling originally for about $75. The producers are making money on these.

We now see the same thing with the Italian daggers being produced at the factory and sold wholesale for about $50.

When I lived in Poland, I had a good friend who was a retired University Professor in metallergy.
We were looking at guns at an antique store when he pointed to an old pisol and said that one is mine. I said you mean you use to own it. No, he said, I built it.
there are 16 cap and ball antique pistols being traded on the antique market, that he built in his home with a metal lathe. He did this so he could trade for real antiques.

The point being, when you live in an economy where $200 per month is a good wage, and you have all the expertise of crafstmen, you can turn out reproductions. Especially if they sell for $5,000 each.

Back to common sense. Numerous near mint daggers show up with an uncommon maker. Really guys.

You're not wrong Paul, I also always believed the task to be impossible for anyone to be able to make the "perfect" fake.
The machines that were uses 80 years ago had their own and unique flaws that cannot be duplicated with today's high tech computerized machines.
If the hobby slows down, it won't be because of the fakes but merely because of its high prices and yet, look at Craig's auction going on at the moment, prices are still very high.

Good point on the 70 year old machinery.

Which makes my case. These daggers are being producd using the same machinery used to produce daggers 70 years ago.

Those familiar with the former Russian occupied countries know that they did not replace equipment. I bought Binoculers built using confiscated German machinery. Confiscated equipment from WWII making Binoculars today.

It is the same with the Hungarian daggers being produced at the origiinal factories using original dies and equipment. The same with Austrian daggers.

The Russians reproduce Russian Honor daggers, why not these.

As for reasons people leave the hobby, I have definitely changed my collecting behavior due to the reproductions and books that proclaim reproductions and fantasy daggers to be original. I have sold off most of my collection because of this. The pattern is always the same. Suddenly, a large collection of extremely rare daggers is up for sale. All near mint specialty pieces. Then shortly, another, then another, as the prices of originals is cut by 50 to 60%.

Of course, in the German area, there is much more scrutiny and expertise so it is not so easy to pass off fakes and parts daggers. But, what has the appearance of the Czech SS daggers done for buyers confidence in SS daggers.

I think the treacherous market place will definitley keep people out of the market.

Gentlemen...I think we all agree the object to fakers making them is money. Its not like the 50s 60s 70s when collectors hardly know one another and there were very few if any military shows. With the internet and the closeness of collectors it isnt long before the collector knows there is a problem with a new fake dagger. So no one will buy it (except for the few that get burned at first).Lets say 50 get out there at 5 grand that 250,000 not enough to make money, for the time, labor, effort and machinery. So 50 get out at 5 grand, the gig is up and everyone knows there fakes. The price will plummet. No one (collector wise) will buy them. Know there down to 100 buck apiece collectors might buy one every once in a while to fill a space or some non collector just because he wants a wall hanger. With as well informed as the collecting community is i cant see any profit in it for as much as it would cost.

Thank goodness edged weapons from the TR were all made in Solingen, Ruskies didn't get their hands on them.

Pat: Not only in Solingen. BTW have you heard about POW camp in Solingen suburb?
Earl (Rick) Schreiber: Some time ago I bought a rare and really expensive dagger for 30-40% less than anywhere. From a known GDC member. Was it a good deal or did I buy a fake? I know that it is 100% original, but so-called "experts" named it a fake, as the price was unbelievable.
----
If someone interested I can show a Russian Honor dirk in Gold for 35K to compare what dagger is easy to reproduce. I also have a pics of its copy made in Russia. It would be nice and interesting to compare them here at GDC.

Now it looks like there are more than the supposed 6 by Henckels. That is usually the story that's floated with the 'initial release' until more surface.
One of the best lines regarding this point was made by Frederick Stephens in his book Reproduction?Recognition! when discussing the Paul Muller SS prototype dagger; " It is a curious feature of this extremly rare dagger, that of the three original manufactured, five of them have so far turned up".

That was in 1981. Now how many of the original Three Paul Muller SS prototype daggers are to be found? There has to be at least 15 that were sold in the last 20 years. Every other 'advanced' closet collection in Europe probably has one.
However in 1965, according to the authority at the time, there were only three.

-Serge-

When you produce daggers and sell them for let's say $ 50 a piece, you can only make a profit when you produce several hundreds of them. Otherwise the production-costs per dagger would be way too high. The problem is, when you produce several hundreds, you will never be able to sell them all as authentic (and rare) TR pieces. So I don't think the problem is as big as some think. There will allways be a few extremely well made fakes, but I also think it is just too expensive to produce one or two daggers once in a while to make a lot of money, even in Hungary. I agree with Lakesidetrader on this subject.

Danny

I agree with Paul and Pat,
Do I think it's possible to make a "super fake", yes, but not one that would pass a professional hand on inspection. I just think it's highly unlikely and not feasible. This is my theory. When counterfeiters counterfeit money they don't make 50's and 100's, they make 5's, 10's, and 20's, their are more of them around. If they're going to fake a 55 DLV, in order to recoup costs they would have to flood the market...they can't, it's a "rare dagger". In order to make a perfect fake the first hurdle is to make the perfect dagger...not too easy, but now they have to make it look 70 years old. I'm not sure which one of those two things is harder. I posted this picture from Tom Johnson's German Daggers of World War II reference book volume 4 page 1023. These are dies of various dagger and sword parts from the period, they're still around and in my opinion this is the only way to make anything convincing enough to look like an original. HOWEVER, there is still the task of making it look 70 years old and that is what I have a hard time believing. I'm not trying to run this thread astray but if anyone has ever watched the Antiques Road Show, there is reproduced furniture and tables on there all the time and guess what...it doesn't fool the appraisers...not once. Their made from the same materials, put together the same way, but when they take a drawer out or take it apart it's missing the patina. I have heard that these dagger counterfeiters soak the daggers in piss, bury them in the back yard and so on. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it. You can reproduce a dagger, it won't be cheap, it for sure won't be easy, but you can only reproduce the duration of time with the duration of time.


Rich


PHOTO FROM TOM JOHNSON GERMAN DAGGERS OF WORLD WAR II A PHOTOGRAPHIC REFERENCE page 1023

Rich,
Sorry, but I have to disagree with your posting above. To me it shows you must not have been in this hobby a long time.

The reality of the reproduction situation is this; EVERY expert in this field has been fooled by a 'in-hand' authenticity inspection at one time or another. Naturally, few will want to admit it, fewer yet want to be reminded.
And if you believe what you see in those staged antique shows on T.V. - well...let's for now stick to blades.

Are you looking for a screamer TeNo leader? Here's one that could be had.

Images provided to me by 'confidential source' and used here with their permission.


It's got a mint blade, with full sharp burnishing on the logo and eagle.


And the scabbard is also super clean with all burnishing.


Here is a full shot...You want it beore it gets away??? Ya gotta move quick!



Well save your money. This is a current super fake TeNo Leader. I have not inspected
it 'in-hand', however I'm told it has fooled many a expert. Is it a perfect fake? No.
There is a way to tell...but that's for another time (no PM's on what that is please)
Billy G. knows about these...but how many others?

All I'm saying is don't get so confident that an expert can tell. When good new model
repro comes on the market many get taken.
Here is the west we are mostly behind the times in this area anyway IMO.
When the new patina repro Postschutz came out it was newer colleages from Russia who proved that it was a fake in this excellent thread.
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=248379#Post248379

I felt it was important to make a point here but it took away the initial 55cm DVL thread. Moderator please
feel free to delete this post if non-conforming.

-Serge-

I have allways thought that it is impossible to fake crossgrain and I don't see it on this one either nor have I ever seen convincing crossgrain on any fake dagger. I'm wondering of others have seen convincing crossgrain on a fake.

Danny

I have to admit that this Teno is indeed a very well made fake and that it would fool most of us if we were to base our judgments on pics alone.
However, I still doubt that it would pass a hand on inspection but only if you knew what to look for.
As for the Poschutz, it was easily discarded by Ron and Houston on pics alone so there's no panic on this one.
Now, I will take a closer look at the Poschutz that I bought from Serge couple of years ago, haaaaaaaaaaaaa.

LOL
Sorry to say, Serge, but the same guys knew NOTHING about 3R period iteams only 3 years ago...
the same den70 anounced that SA High Leader from H.Coates is a fake, what was especialy interesting as he has never seen one in hands... This is just one example I have seen myself.
Have anybody heard a theory that all blind Eick logos are fakes? No? I had. I guess you will soon.
the same den70 tried to resell some TENO daggers as originals, even now he insists they are good. Hard to imagine what kind of a TENO book he will published.
At the same thread about Postshutz daggers at the most popular Russian forum again the same den70 was caught red handed trying to fool members but nobody knows about it here.
Here are some threads about it:
http://ww2.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=464332&st=0
ww2.ru/forum/index.php?

Here are some pics of TENO fakes from a well known and highly respected expert on TENO daggers from Ukraine.

Next time, if you want to be consider as a serious forum member be sure you know the exact story.

Serge,
I would like to admit to the forum that I don't know everything about every dagger, but I didn't just walk through the door yesterday.

Just to clarify things, I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, I'm not trying to sway your opinion, and I'm not trying to get you on the same side of the fence as me. Your entitled to believe what ever you want. I was merely stating my opinion, as I'm entitled. That's what makes this country so great.

I've been collecting TR daggers/swords for about 12 years now, and don't hold me to it as I didn't write down the year I started. I have been around antiques my whole life as my parents were collectors. I have also been collecting hand guns, long guns and knives for 30 years.(none of that fantasy stuff)

You said EVERY expert has been fooled one time or another. I don't doubt what your saying, however I never said these "super fakes" will never fool anyone at any time. It's bound to happen.

What I would really like to know is how many experts have been fooled lately as there is more information at our finger tips now than ever before. If you have 2 collectors that have only collected for 10 years but the first collector collected from 1960 to 1970 and the second collector collected from 2000 to 2010 the second collector will be far far more knowledgeable for the simple fact that a large amount of the information just wasn't available.


Rich

Rather than get into personalities, the point was made that forums like this protect the members as best can be. I think this is correct.

I recall making a lot of noise about one Irish dealer who was selling fakes on Ebay and getting thousands each. We disclosed his name and email and shortly after I was contacted by someone in LA who asked me to prove the ultra rare personalized Hungarian Honor dagger he just purchased was a run of the mill reproduction. I proved it and the dealer disappeared from Ebay.

Also, the fakes are identified and discussed here with the help of our European and Canadian fellows.

I have a 200 year old Samarii sword blade. All experts agree it is a proper blade 200 years old. It has a bogus signature on it that was done at the time of manufacture. Fakes have always been there.

So please let us recognize that people have their beliefs. and let us not get personal or defensive. Please

We are all here to learn and help fellow collectors.
Serge has always been a generous contributor to this forum and I thank him for his work and research.
Now, if Serge get's burn on a super fake, then we are all in trouble.

When I started this thread I was counting on the collective experience and wisdom of our members to provide an overall balanced view of the problem I posed with the subject 55cm DLV. I have not been disappointed. I do not use the term expert as imo it fell into disrepute in our hobby many years ago. A definition of expert once published in pre-internet days was, "somone who likes your stuff". My call on this particular dagger remains that they are reproduction but that I cannot yet prove my statement beyond reasonable doubt.

Pat, and others by P.M., thanks for the comments of support.

I only wanted to help and say that we should never feel comfortable with what we know as that is determined by our past experience. Keep your eyes and ears open as there are constantly new things to learn in this hobby.
I'm still learning.

Thank you Barry for starting this thread on the 55cm DLV. Best one here in a long time IMHO.

-Serge-

Barry, that would be the way I would call it also.
Too many minty rare daggers showing up all at one time by the same maker.

Let's see what Tom Wittmann has to say about this model (Luftwaffe Book, pg. 3);
"All DLV Officer Patterns are to be considered extremely rare. With the exception of very advanced colllections,these daggers are almost never seen. This writer is familiar with examples bearing the trademarks of Paul Weyersberg, Adolf Braun, Carl Eickhorn, J.A. Henckels and Carl Heidelberg."

Here is one I picked up recently some of you may recall. A Carl Heidelberg, cut down to 19". Hope it's real - wasn't cheap.
But glad it wasn't a Henckels!

-Serge-

Rich,
Our opinions are all we state here. Mine was different than yours this time and that's OK. I didn't mean to sound brash but it looks like it was taken that way. Different opinions are what forums are about and healthy for the hobby, but delivery of them can sometimes be ackward. Many a time it is those differing opinions that lead to a new discovery in the hobby.
BTW, I enjoy watching your enthusiasm for the hobby and contribution in this forum.

-Serge-

A Carl Heidelberg, cut down to 19".
[/quote]

Congrats. All as it should be for a Heidelberg. I always like to see a silver plate finish on the early DLVs', unlike as seen on the subject/suspect Henckels which is not silvered. The few Heidelbergs that I have seen have been "cut down" and may or may not actually have been their only entry. If other members own or have seen a full 55cm Heidelberg it would be good to have a picture posted here.

Wow now that's nice

It sure would be nice to see these TENO " fakes" in hand. There certainly is some convincing flakeing on that TENO Officer. No one seems to want to admit they have held one and the reasons for their opinions. IMO this is BS and just tends to cause panic. If you don't want to tell the whole story what good does it do. If the fakers can make one this good they will certainly soon correct any mistake with or without any "super secret" revealed on this or any other forum. I think most collectors are aware ( or should be ) of the casting mark under the cross guard swaz on originals. Is this the big secret? or? Come on, what is it--I'm sure ALL will be revealed at the SOS anyhow.

IMO, the real big secret is that TENO has different casting marks in fact.

Wow! Nice job.

I know that this thread has gone a little cold, but I have to say, I am interested to have a look around at the SOS this year to see whether any of these "new" pieces pop up.

Even if we cannot agree about the DLV, I think there is much more support and evidence concerning the TeNo, Postal and other high quality fakes (even the SAs recently dissected by Dave) is persuasive.
In light of these recent fakes and the ever "improving" trend in the quality of these fakes, I am definitely on the side who errs with caution.

I know that these fakes make everyone nervous, collectors and dealers alike (although perhaps for nearly equal yet opposite reasons), so I think there may actually be some inherent motivation on all our parts, to find a way to justify chalking these suspicious pieces up to being " a new variant"?

Why are so many "new variants" popping up these days anyway?
Your telling me that we were able to identify nearly all makers of SA daggers decades ago, but "new variant" daggers are just popping up like flowers?

Is this the real story, or just the way we want to hear it?
Keeps the hobby interesting, doesn´t it?

In light of all of this, I take Serge´s information seriously and am behind the "whistleblowers".

Good hunting and looking forward to seeing you all at the SOS!

Johnny

I started this thread in order to gain opinions and information that might support a dispute. I obtained one of these "Henckels 55cm dlv's" from a UK dealer who has refunded to me the "cost/price" to him of the dagger. He has stated to me that the piece came from a "reliable source" - (not disclosed to me). As I have no verifiable proof I have given the dealer the benefit of the doubt as to his non complicity in a fraud and written off the balance of the retail price as a financial loss. Since starting the thread I have had several PMs' (including a PM from a major UK dealer, but who has asked not to be identified) confirming that the dagger I illustrated at the start of this thread is post war and has certainly been available in Europe in recent times. I noted earlier in the thread that Tom Johnson is reported as declaring these daggers a fake. However, there is no doubt that vested interests of collectors and dealers might lead to instances of denial, e.g., I have been advised that a UK collector who has been hit with one of these daggers should not be told "because it would hurt his pride". I have been round the block many times with TR edged weapons since getting my first as a kid in 1945. I have also been caught before over the long years of collecting. Denial can be the enemy of honest collectors and the friend of the scammer.