UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Strange NSKK Dagger

I got sent these images, and wonder if anybody knows anything about them? The dagger looks a bit weird, but I will reserve comment until others have a look.

More pics.

Final pics. Apparently some sort of NSKK Prototype Dagger?

The regular SA/NSKK prototypes are the ones with the early "A" motto and the pointy wing eagle.

A prototype leader dagger? Possibly .... but it does not seem that well made for something that was used to impress the higher-ups who signed the purchase order. No image on the rear of the pommel cap.

The crossguard seems to resemble either that leader dagger seen in some older books or maybe the RLB daggers. From the limited pictures, it could be most anything.

Dave

Pommel and crossguard almost resemble dug pieces! Maybe a prototype and they used sand casting?

I have held this one in hand a can tell you its right,what it is exactly i dont know nskk of some sort, but it feels right to me. thats all i will say about it.

The grips on these NSKK prototype pieces are beautiful, like the ultimate SLANT grip! Hope we can see some more pics of the front of the guard... Kevin.

How did we get from 'what is it' to 'NSKK prototype dagger' in 8 posts?

How does holding it in your hand make it right ?

I'd like to know the answer to both questions too. To me, the dagger seems rather crude and unfinished, even if it's real. The statement "it seems right" has never really been an acceptable defense here at GDC, and I look forward to learning more about this piece.

Has there not been several nskk "prototype" daggers popping up over the years ??? all looking different from each other.
even for a prototype ,the quality is less than one would see.

"o.k. boss ! , this what you wanted ?"
the logo would state it to be the early one (found in the sleeve diamonds).
Now might be a prototype rendering (very first stage) for a design for the yearly dagger compaction. or a designer's apprentice "class project".
got my doubts. jeff

Jeff: I would tend to agree. Even if it's real, it does seem like a "class project" of some sort. Why did they not complete the back side of the pommel? I can't recall a dagger that has a "one sided" pommel design.

The dagger is not a trade school class project and is absolutely and for sure 100% real!

ITS MOSTLY CORROSION THAT LETS IT DOWN,THATS WHATS TAKEN AWAY THE DEFINITION OF THE POMMEL

� Yeah, especially from the reverse side!!

LOL at Johnny

I get the feeling that someone is playing games here.

If you know what it is or have better pictures, post it.

Dave

Maybe I spoke to quick calling this dagger a "prototype" but we have all seen the other NSKK piece that was supposed to have been bought for a song by one of the Dagger "Guru's" and had this same deep orange to red extremely slanted grip!? Wouldn't think these grips were available just anywhere?? Kevin.

I would agree with Dave ... if anybody has more photos, I would like too see them. We do know that Johnson has had many leftover grips of various types over the years, and nobody's saying this is one of them. I'd just like to see more discussion on this piece. Why it has no motif on the back of the pommel, and why, if corrosion is to blame for the lack of detail, is the blade and scabbard so nice, not to mention the degree of finish? I personally believe this one has a chance, but would love to see more photos.

That is a keen observation Kevin. The one you speak of was a very similar. It sported a silver finish and had a pommel similar to a 2nd luft but was different. This example is even rarer as it the NSKK marine leader example to the silver one with just a different pommel and the light coppery plated finish as seen on chained marine NSKK daggers. It should be made by Eickhorn.

-Serge-

WAIT WAIT WAIT...

Quote from Craig: " Why, if corrosion is to blame for the lack of detail, is the blade and scabbard so nice, not to mention the degree of finish? I personally believe this one has a chance, but would love to see more photos."

The scabbard is nowhere in the pictures, and the blade, just barely, but not enough to claim that it is "nice"�

Craig, if you do not have additional pictures of the dagger, how do you know that the blade and scabbard are "so nice"???
Otherwise you must have the dagger and can then provide photos... in any case.

???

The prototypes I was speaking of , looked like items straight from the factory ,quality materials , superb finish, out standing looking dagger.
some thing you knew was not made in a garage or basement.
some of the designs actually looked better than the daggers that were chose. not like the one shown.
remember ,any prototype would be excellent quality, since the customer would give a thumbs up or down.
we have "all "seen the early / prototype S.A.s! & we all can see the changes that were made for the production model.
most of the dagger proposed designs were on paper only.
honestly don't know what this is.

Someone, who can remain anonymous for the moment, was kind enough to send me two pictures. Not great focus, but enough to shed a little more light.

I forgot to add that the blade had the Eickhorn 35-41 maker's mark.

Dave

No intriguing, mysterious or sneaky stories and no blood remnants
to confirm by DNA. Also no audio or video tapes or sworn,
certified statements or any finger prints by deceased persons
however as I said, 100% original.

From a highly respected, very ethical and
well informed individual.

DA DA DA DUUUMM.... bluuurry pics.

Woops, posting this while the last better pics were being posted!

Any history behind this pieces aquisition?

Very interesting and appealing piece that looks great at a distance. Lets look closer....

I took them pics on my mobile phone at a fair, whilst it was being examined by a couple of leading authoritys.

No, It's not mine (i wish...), nor did i send the pics to Dave.

But its a real nice dagger with no hidden agendas.

Well done to the owner for obtaining this piece of history.

Mark

I actually do have 2 more pictures, that I thought I'd posted; my apologies. I am at home now with house guests, but will try to find them in my email and post them when I get back to work on Monday. John: The dagger lacks any of the detail that your beautiful SS Prototype had, and wonder why it's so. I personally agree with you ... my instinct is that it's original, but I would never make a more firm pronouncement like that unless I had the piece in hand, or had purchased it myself from a vet.

Craig,

Seriously, I'm mystified at the lack of conversation on this piece.

Anyway, despite the fact that it's poorly made, I think the dagger is most likely real.

Ok I will throw my hat into the ring,,,As I was looking at the first page of photos,, for me its hard to imagine a 1 sided dagger! Most daggers if not all that I have seen have some kind of reverse detail which this prototype lacks any! Kinda boring to look at the reverse side of it. I am not saying its not real but just really lacking from behind. Most prototype daggers have a little more "Pizazz" then this one. Ok,, now i am waiting for bruises regards Larry

I find the lack of detail to the reverse pommel quite odd as well. All pommels with logos that I can think of (Luftwaffe, NSFK, Teno, Feldhernhalle, Bird's Head) have motifs on both sides. Cross-guards are often "one sided" as this one is.

I will give my 2 cents also.

I saw this or similar dagger before, I believe at the SOS or MAX, and what I noticed then was how small the swastika is on the pommel, and it looks also like it's not centered.

The blackening on the scabbard is not pre 45 IMHO, it looks like the paint they use to hump up the Teno's, it would be a good specimn for me to check with my XRF machine to see wich components it has.

It was said that the lack of quality of the pommel is because of corrosion, but that would also effect the paint thats on it, and it did not.

The grip used on this one closely resembles, or is the same, as the grips that were floating around some years back, and I believe that there was on big dealer that had a couple.

And then the biggest mistery; why does it only have one side? Who would wear a dagger that only has one side to show? And have such crude finish?
I think that IF this is pre-45, it most likely was a display piece of some kind, maybe in the Eickhorn window or somewhere.

Just thinking out loud.

Quiet all of sudden.

But, perhaps not surprising as few people, myself included, can guess what it is. The 'almost focused' pictures are frustrating and what can be seen poses questions:

- Why such a small swaz?
- How could the swaz be rusted but the scabbard not touched?
- That scabbard looks familiar but perhaps painted
- Is that a larger NSKK emblem super-glued to a crossguard? Or something else?
- Why the blank reverse pommel?

Then, John Pepera post a very positive endorsement, but does not follow through with proof

Prototypes are hand-made, but they are well finished with complete details. Sometimes better than the actual production models. This is because they are made to impress the leaders who will sign the order. The NSKK may not have been the SS, but that dagger would not have been very impressive to the leaders.

"I get the feeling that someone is playing games here.
If you know what it is or have better pictures, post it"
Dave

"I actually do have 2 more pictures, that I thought I'd posted"
Craig Gottlieb


Dave, who were you referring to?

Is it me or has this thread from the beginning been a little vague? We are now into a 4th page on this thread with no results. So lets the rest of these pics already. We have gotten more pics from new members asking if "Is it real?" than 4 pgs of nothing!! Who is it really..that we are waiting for to chime in on an opinion of this dagger?

I agree, Siegfried; will someone please step in and provide more info on this piece? I still will find my additional photos and post them (sorry, but my mom has been in town, and we just finished a BATF and CA DOJ inspection of my business (I'm an FFL). Anyway ... I think Rob's comment that if real, it probably was a "shop display" makes a lot of sense - it's the only reason I can think to explain the strange "one sided" pommel. The swastika IS off center and small - never really thought of that. Dave is also right ... even prototypes have a LOT better detail than this piece. John Pepera's Alcoso Prototype was a perfect example of the quality that manufacturers put into a prototype or special order. Sure, they weren't perfect, but this piece is FAR from perfect.

Lots of questions, with a lot of silence.

I Just want to know the price & which dealer is selling it ?

I still do not believe it's pre 45 (been wrong before). but the additional photos were nice to see, but now every one has more questions.

It's not me, and I don't know who is selling it. And to clarify my position; I don't say it's pre-45 or post-45: it could be either. Despite the numerous red flags above, it could be real, or it could also be a fantasy piece made up from a Teno Dagger by a creative person. I would really like to see this piece discussed in great detail.

John,

you said "The dagger is not a trade school class project and is absolutely and for sure 100% real!". I was hoping that you might know something we do not.

Craig,

We need to see detail to discuss it in detail

Dave

No disrespect Craig but until more Photo documentation and viable input is added to what already is half of nothing,, the discussion is pretty much ended. If there are "Blood Stone" squeezers out here that know something, lets hear it,, but until then what else can be said? The topic has thinned...or someone is holding out for the H*LL of it! Now a 5th page has begun.

**

Craig,

It does not have any �casting flaws�; and the ageing of it is consistent throughout. The presence of �corrosion� is an illusion � what has actually happened is that the gold-wash on the metal parts has started to bubble and lift in some areas, and it creates the impression of corrosive pock-marks. The fact that the dagger was given a clear lacquer finish before it was sent out from the factory has added to this visual effect. This lacquer has started to degrade, and become a translucent honey colour, creating the impression of a dull, matt yellow gold. The dagger is actually in much better condition that the photographs imply.

The swastika in the pommel appears to be some form of enamel � but unlike more usual glass enamel, it has started to degrade. I do not have an explanation to account for this.

The piece has been left, un-cleaned and untouched since it was brought back in 1947. The only thing I have done with it is to give it a wipe over with a soft, dry cloth � just to get the dust off it.

I am rather annoyed at the person who broke a confidence and leaked some images. This against an all guaranteed confidential agreement that the images were for �personal appraisal� only. And I have since told that person so, and they will never again receive any help from myself what ever the circumstances � not ever.

I am attaching two photographs; one of myself with the dagger � taken today 13 August, 2011, to show that I really do own it. The other is a full length study of the dagger obverse, I submit this just to end speculation regarding what the dagger really does look like. I am unconcerned opinions concerning its authenticity. I know what it is; I have my research and my information, and I am satisfied that I really have discovered the answer.

I have nothing further to say about the piece. If I am unable to post the photos, I will arrange to have someone else do it for me.

Frederick J. Stephens

Hello Fred....Please don't shoot the rest of us because of gottlieb....(the heck with him)I would love to see some nice detailed photos of this dagger.

you wrote:

"I have my research and my information, and I am satisfied that I really have discovered the answer."

Is there a way you could tell us something??
How long have you had this dagger Fred?

Thanks Fred

Regards,Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

Craig and Frederick,

I've had enough of you two baiting each other. I don't care who started it or why, but do it again on GDC and you get two weeks off.

I'm going to go back and take out all of what I consider baiting and insults.

Dave

Dave,

Why didn't you take Craig's remarks out before I responded? You have had 5 pages of input before I spoke up, but then it appears that I am not allowed to complain!

I would much prefer that you leave my response as it is, or alternatively remove my photographs and text altogether, rather than you have the presumption that you can sub-edit it.

Frederick J. Stephens

Fred,

I did not see those last few remarks until just now. The first one might have passed for humor (humour to you) but not others. Your post was in response to Graig's, but having edited his, I have also edited yours and I think I have taken all objectionable bits out.

If you would care to show us more, we would really to see the details and your analysis of what it is. I would like to see better pictures. If you wish, send them to me I will post them.

Regards,
Dave

One last item: If any of you feels that someone is baiting or insulting you, send Vern or myself an email and it WILL be checked out. Don't answer yourself, contact us or a Mod.

Thanks,

[email protected]
[email protected]

I agree with Dave, and thanks to Dave for cleaning anything up he felt was inappropriate. I have always been up-front with posting photos of my daggers, and am glad these images are now forthcoming. Regarding this piece, now that we know who owns it, I would be glad to hear from Fred why the pommel has no design on the reverse?

I usually don't post any of my opinions because, truthfully, I just don't know enough. BUT, I will post this; I try to learn from ALL those I consider "experts" in this field and when a subject like this comes up and does more damage than good to the novice collector and the hobby, in general, I feel duped. There are so many "real" issues that I have to deal with, without dealing with someone(or more) playing games. I feel like someone is wasting my time and I TRUST you guys. PLEASE- Keep it real or I'll be gone. Not that that really means anything to some of you "Big Boys". I have learned a LOT from this website and would hope to lean more. But I need to feel safe. I may be ranting but, GIVE ME A BREAK SORRY if I wasted anyones time or got off the track but I needed to say something-for my sake. Respectfully, Mark Giannullo

Mark: Great post. By way of background, there is a history of back and forth surrounding NSKK daggers here on GDC. It's probably why someone sent me the original photos I got of this dagger, and why subsequently, I received a PDF advertisement for its sale. Someone obviously wanted entertainment here on GDC, and they won't get it. What they should get (as should we all) is healthy debate about this unique and interesting dagger. As I said from the very beginning, I think the dagger has hope, but would want a lot of things explained before I gave it my endorsement. The most problematic for me is the lack of design on the reverse of the pommel. To a lesser but equally important degree, I would like to know about the uneven key-design on the scabbard tip (the other similar dagger has a very even key-design feature). Other problems include the apparently uneven age to the piece, and other issues that have been raised above. I think it's good that Fred is now willing to share more details. He says that it's been around since 1947: can you give us more information?

Very nice dagger Fred!!!!

Frederic,

What an amazing dagger!
This must be THE NSKK Marine High leader Dagger!?!

Simply incredible to see.
The first images did not do the piece justice. This is essentially a "prototype in the flesh", which is the peak of excitement in the hobby for me.

I do not see the troubles that some have raised. I am afraid that past (interpersonal) history may be leveraging exaggerated criticism which this piece does not warrant.

This is a one-of-a-kind dagger, and therefore it exhibits one-of-a-kind characteristics (including finish and details). In these cases we must rely upon providence, and shared characteristics.

The grip, and overall design are characteristic of the other known NSKK High Leader piece. The gold/copper wash matches what we see on original NSKK Marine leader pieces. The maker mark is correct. The scabbard is correct. The grip is correct.

The fact that this dagger is in the hands of Mr. Stevens is even further substantiation of its originality (IMO).
I have seen Mr. Stevens protest against "high-end daggers" which were generally accepted but exhibited perhaps critical flaws.

Personally, I like to buy daggers from the most critical, experienced, and detail oriented people possible. At the top of this heap is Mr. Stephens.

To Mr. Stephens: I love your book, it got me into this hobby, I hope to see an update, and all the best!

If I had the funds, I would BUY THIS DAGGER!

A truly unparalleled gem!

Congratulations to the buyer (I wish I were you!).

Johnny

I want to thank the many guys who have emailed me to point out a debate (if that is a reasonable term for it) on another forum.

I would really like to know more about Fred's dagger, but I would not blame him a bit if he posted nothing at all, given the circumstances.

Dave

You are correct Dave. I am displeased at my treatment and the belated censorship, and the excuses given for it, which has been meeted out. There will be no more information offered about the dagger. It is over.

Frederick J. Stephens

gottlieb writes:

"Someone obviously wanted entertainment here on GDC, and they won't get it"

"What they should get (as should we all) is healthy debate about this unique and interesting dagger"

"want a lot of things explained before I gave it my endorsement"

"I think it's good that Fred is now willing to share more details"

What I want to say here would only get me banned from this site,FOR LIFE...some of us would like to learn about this interesting Dagger...but I guess we will never know now!!

Sepp

Amen to that Sepp...

I also agree with Sepp. Some of us truly WOULD like to learn about this dagger ... what the history is, why we should overlook the weird pommel design, among other things. Dave: if there's another thread out there on another forum where Fred is willing to discuss the dagger, please let us know where it is. It's a shame that the discussion here could not even get off the ground.

As was said by others, someone was probably looking for some entertainment and didn't get it here. UNFORTUNATELY, we all suffer. I don't blame Mr. Stephens for being fed up but now "we" don't getto learn about an obvious rare dagger. I THANK all who have been responsible and posted their honest opinions and experiences. I continue to learn (and at 61 thats not aleays an easy thing to do). Thanks again. Respectfully, Mark
PS-Mr Stephens, I hope you wil re-consider.

after reading all of the posts on this thread I feel that it is relatively easy for anyone that has been a member here for some time to figure out what is going on. It is "unfortunate" regards, Ryan

I don't really see what Fred is afraid of. Rumors are already circulating in the private email space, and this is a chance for you to clear up the red flags and tell your side of the story. Dave has already said he'd monitor this thread carefully, and keep it about the dagger only. He's threatened a 2 week suspension for anybody who crosses the line.

With a come-on like the one above, I can see why Fred is ignoring us. I would too, in his position.

Dave

He will NEVER learn...

Sepp

The Man is a Sad case indeed!!!

Ego.
He took a pounding on WAF and trying to re establish
credibility.
Fred will reply IF and when he feels like it.Not before and not in response to baiting or innuendo.IMO.
Seiler

I agree Seiler,, You cant reestablish credibility when one person with an agenda has to goad and drag everyone else into an arena because they need an audience. A Bull in a China shop has more tact and would be a better Chess player, in calculating his moves, than the above mentioned.
Sometimes certain lines should not be crossed no matter who the individual, out of respect and regard. I see enough of this type of crap outside, with very young people trying to gain attention and ending up with a black eye...physically and emotionally. Knowledge is everything on this forum and the hobby. I enjoy all of those who I have been in contact with since I joined the GDC and I would never trade my friendship or the trust, that I have earned all for some photos.
Mr Stephens will speak up when he is ready as we all will when we are ready to post or chat about a certain topic or item. No one person has to be arm twisted into doing anything if they dont want to .
Those who have an agenda like car salesmen thrive on getting you to say yes for their pocket or selfish gain. When someone wants something and you say "NO" the pounding doesnt stop except when you say yes,,,always in this life never the other way around. Trust is worth more than any valuable. Larry

You guys are 100% correct..

Dave

There have been more than rumors circulating through " private email space " with regards to certain behavior. The players know the game and no one is going to fool anyone by marketing through controversy. You should take your ball and bat and find someone that wants to play with you, I do not think you will find many without you paying them of course. Good luck with that.

I sure would like to Hear the story of this dagger...But I'm pretty sure we won't hear from Fred again on this subject!

Sepp

As the saying goes , buy the item , Not the story.

Agreed, I feel that Fred will not tell the full story, nor provide an explanation of the red-flags. As I said initially, I tend to believe in this piece, but wanted lots of questions answered. Unfortunately, the lack of attention to the matter, which could have been handled under the watchful eye of Dave (for COC violations) speaks volumes to me.

Here we go again....Did you not read the post on pages 6 and 7??? My God man,you keep typing "Agreed,Agreed,Agreed" with the different post...people are trying...never mind,I won't speak for others...What I was trying nicely to say to you is...

Fred WON'T POST ANYMORE REMARKS,because I believe he is sick of you bending his arm,and breaking his stones about this dagger
and other daggers. Not sure what the problem is between you guys (Well I think I know)why can't you leave your problems with Fred at the darn door? I can say this with all honesty..."I have never read a post, where Fred was ever disrespectful towards you,unless you jumped on him first" You being the founder of this web site should know better.

In case you missed this on your re reads of the past post's Fred wrote: "I have nothing further to say about the piece."

Understand now, Leatherneck???

PS: I for one DON'T feel that this post should have needed the "Watchful Eye of Dave" because he had to "Speaks Volumes to me"


Sepp

A Marine before you were a gleam, in your Dads eye.

Sepp,

I agree, but tone it down please.

Dave

Heh heh�
Sepp, again, you took the words right our of my mouth...
Going to the MAX? It would be good to meet over a beer.

I was ACHING to write a response, but I could not formulate one in a way which would not cause me to be banned from this site (and perhaps a dozen others by mere association) for LIFE!



All the best to YOU,
Johnny

Yes, a totally TEXTbook dagger, and for a very good price also!

Rob,

In which textbook or reference book is that dagger shown ?

Or, where is it being offered for sale ?

Dave

I was being sarcastic Dave, to my knowledge this "prototype"is not shown in any book.
I heard a price on it from about 100000 GBP, I am sure that everybody here also knows this.

What really concerns me, is that a dagger like this gets a thumbs up from many people here, and I am afraid that this has more to do with the liking the person that owns it.
I also like FJS, but I really believe that this dagger has MAJOR problems.
This has more to do with Forum Politics then discussing a dagger.

And I also believe that if this dagger was posted by me, then it would have not stand a chance. IMHO.