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#245366 05/23/2011 07:28 PM
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What it is possible to tell about originality of this subject?

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Andrew #245367 05/23/2011 07:30 PM
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***

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Andrew #245411 05/24/2011 09:39 AM
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Unnecessary disassambling (which it is in this case) is a big no no concerning edged weapons. You nearly never do anything good, mostly you do something bad. Especially such a fragile construction (because of the certain grip plates, the head screw, the ferrule and the fitting of each of the parts together) like gov and diplo daggers NEVER get the same state when they are once disassambled.
If you donīt recognize an original from a faked one in assembled state you also will not recognize it in disassambled state.
Please apologize my hard words but you do nothing good to 60+ years artefacts you perhaps want to collect or at least to sell it to any sertious collector.
This all said I cannot see any red flag and from the pics the dagger seems having been a nice original before it has been disassambled....
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #245436 05/24/2011 05:06 PM
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Wotan is right most big dealers won't disassemble a Dip or Gov't. Had a friend take a Gov't apart and had a heck of a time getting the pommel screw to align up with the eagle on the top for a flush fit and he scratched the screw mad.I now have the dagger


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Ed Martin #245451 05/24/2011 08:21 PM
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Thanks for your opinion. This subject was disassembled not by me, and its present owner who wants it to sell. I wanted to buy it, but now I will reflect...

Andrew #245462 05/24/2011 09:57 PM
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As an aside here: Sometimes replacing something as simple as a missing political scabbard screw can be a trial. I know; I've been there and done that. Unless there's a real compelling reason IMO DON'T disassemble ededged weapons.
Jim

anonymous 123 #245537 05/25/2011 10:27 PM
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Some daggers, like political ones and Army and Lufts are really not a critial dis-assemble as the parts are fairly standard and, if retained in the same position and side up, will re-assemble without much trouble. THAT BEING SAID, some daggers are very nearly impossible to re-assemble without great problems or mis-fitting: Government, Diplomatic, HJ Leader to mention a few.
So, if you have not been instructed in the proper manner or not had the experience, LEAVE THEM ALONE...


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Ronald Weinand #245600 05/27/2011 05:11 AM
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Discussion has gone on any curve road. Why Army or Luft it is possible to disassemble, and the Diplomatic isn't present? Because it is cheaper? Interesting reasonings!

Last edited by Andrew; 05/27/2011 05:12 AM.
Andrew #245601 05/27/2011 05:19 AM
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Andrew, not cheaper, but more complex.

The daggers mentioned, like the Government or the HJ Leader, are not easy to disassemble and much more difficult to put back together into the same condition as originally found.

Armies and Luft2s usually can be taken apart relatively easily and also put back together safely.

But, any time you take something apart you run the risk of some kind of damage... the risk is way higher with these more complex daggers.

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #245606 05/27/2011 06:28 AM
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With age, both wood and plastic become more brittle, and I’ve seen a fairly large number of daggers of all types which have been physically damaged by taking them apart and reassembling them. And this dagger really required a well made special purpose spanner wrench just to get it apart. How many daggers are going to get wrecked in the process, and will this madness ever end?? FP

Fred Prinz - FP #245609 05/27/2011 08:51 AM
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IMO, With initial assembly integrity lost, any disassembled dagger effectively becomes a 'parts' piece, and as such less desirable. If it can be proven to NOT have been apart, in my eyes this attribute would command a premium.

Paul


FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
Paul #245623 05/27/2011 04:22 PM
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Well. Let's return to discussion of authenticity of dagger. I have photo of several Diplomatic dagger with a logo Alkoso such how on B. But I didn't see any Alkoso diplomatic dagger such how on A. Can accept I a photo such dagger, except discussed here? Such ferrule is characteristic for Eickhorn, but not for Alkoso!

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Andrew #245881 06/01/2011 06:08 PM
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Andrew, I have registrated these more deep groved grip ring already in the first pics you have shown. I am a collector who has seen a lot of things, on items itself and on period photographs, so personally I am not the pure "textbook" type. ALCOSO diplo/gov daggers normally (at least what I remember from the few disambled in my very early days) have all parts numbered (against EICKHORN which have mostly only certain parts numbered). So in this case we would have to examine this ferrule very carefully if there is any mark (there are several possibilities of marks not necessarily numbers) corresponding with the other internal numbers "71". Generally this certain deep grooved ferrule matches perfekt in size and patination and it would need inspection if also the fit is perfect as it should be (unfortunately this is not an easy thing with a once disambled diplo/gov).
I have checked all my personal daggers and my reference photographs of ALCOSO diplo/govs and I have to admit that I found only those with the small shallow grooves.
As the dagger seems to be in very well overall condition it is hard for me to believe that somebody has switched this ferrule. I also cannot detect any other dubious part. all the parts semm to be totally and typically period. On the other hand I am not aware of the fact that EICKHORN and ALCOSO did change parts during the period.
There are miracles we will never solve for sure.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #245884 06/01/2011 06:50 PM
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Thanks for the detailed answer, Wotan! We will trust in miracles?:))))

Andrew #246140 06/05/2011 05:11 PM
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I've studied in hands some Diplo/GO daggers before starting to buy them for my collection.
Eick has some differences against Alcoso. As I can see here all parts of this dagger are typically Alcoso. Except the ferrule. I have never seen this before, but I had in hands some Diplo/GO Alcoso daggers and notice that their original scabbards have Eick's style bands. So it makes me think that they did change parts during the period or both of them used parts from third-party manufacturers.

Hope it will help.

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Last edited by anlvd2; 06/05/2011 05:14 PM.

Andrew-aka-Sokol
anlvd2 #246143 06/05/2011 05:34 PM
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GO by Alcoso is on the left at the second picture.
-----
Wotan - see your PM box.


Andrew-aka-Sokol
anlvd2 #246209 06/06/2011 09:00 AM
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Whow, THREE Eickhorn govs with the slutted pommel screw (others would not touch those daggers but we know this is a period feature), thatīs a thing! Eickhorns alone are already rare daggers.
Your statement about changing parts between Eickhorn and Alcoso is interesting because up to now I could not observe this on gov/diplo daggers. But I could observe that Puma, unmarked or any other firm that manufactured gov daggers did use mostly Alcoso parts especially the ferrule.
Have answered your PM.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #246220 06/06/2011 01:26 PM
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Very interesting observation on the ferrule. I am in accord with you both, the deeper ferrule seems to be characteristic of Eickhorn. I am of the opinion that this feature was grooved by hand and not cast into place. When you consider that, it's understandable that there are variations in depth. Further more the slotted tang nut is absolutely right. The only thing that can hold these pieces back a bit is ignorance of the variation.
Thanks Andrew for sharing your great assembly of daggers!

lakesidetrader #246248 06/06/2011 09:06 PM
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Wotan: Yes, all unmarked Gov daggers I examined did have Alcoso parts. I guess that's the rule.

Lakesidetrader: for sure I share your opinion. Grooves were made by hand. The same as with grooves on Post, DLV, SS M36 chains, etc. I look at them as a point of authenticity, as Solingen manufacturers did them in a slightly different manner.


Andrew-aka-Sokol
anlvd2 #246889 06/15/2011 10:15 PM
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What would you say of this Alosco? Slightly diferent MM - Is it legit?

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OverLord #246891 06/15/2011 10:51 PM
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Overlord

I am really curios about this one, is it still up for sale on the site?

If you have the other pictures post them please

zoza #246894 06/15/2011 11:08 PM
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OverLord: I don't see any problem with it.
Mine has the rarest variation of ALCOSO MM for GO/Diplo daggers (IMO):

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Andrew-aka-Sokol
anlvd2 #246897 06/15/2011 11:21 PM
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There you go Zoza.

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OverLord #246901 06/15/2011 11:49 PM
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Did you buy it?

zoza #247007 06/17/2011 08:21 PM
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Working on it;) Unfortunatelly denazified.

OverLord #247014 06/17/2011 09:49 PM
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I would be very careful buying this dagger ,,,

nobody that has a original diplo dagger puts it out for such a small price, it would be good if some experiense could say what they think about it.

zoza #247113 06/19/2011 12:24 AM
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Will see how far it goes.

Any other opinions guys? It was not taken apart so can not confirm if the numbers are there on all 3 parts. The dagger comes from germany. Are there any good fakes of allosco around?

OverLord #247500 06/24/2011 08:44 PM
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Gone for $2500

OverLord #248153 07/07/2011 09:14 PM
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And how about this one guys? Personally had some doubts by the way numbers are placed on the crouguard and the crossguard itself and thus passed on it. I was told though it is good recently so curious of your opinions.

OverLord #248154 07/07/2011 09:16 PM
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Forget the army hangers...

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OverLord #248155 07/07/2011 09:17 PM
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Paul #293703 01/12/2014 03:32 AM
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Paul,
Interesting comment. So you believe that a dagger that has been taken apart and put back together has now become a parts dagger? Thus not making it a premium dagger? Less in price and value?


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