#24399
04/29/2009 08:07 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
I have here a 2nd luftwaffe dagger by "Asso" that i want to vet here.
This dagger belongs to Bob Rodgers. This is from Bob on the Provenance:
"Tom Johnson bought it from a very old time collector when he got the guys collection, Mike Hanson bought it and sold it too Denny, Denny sold it to Craig, and I bought it. (This took place over a) period ( 10 years )".
I would like comments on the dagger.
Here is the dagger.
|
|
|
#24400
04/29/2009 08:08 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
TM
TM.jpg (29.36 KB, 725 downloads)
|
|
|
#24401
04/29/2009 08:08 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24402
04/29/2009 08:09 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24403
04/29/2009 08:10 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24404
04/29/2009 08:10 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24405
04/29/2009 08:11 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
Reverse crossguard. This is deep detail
|
|
|
#24406
04/29/2009 08:12 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24407
04/29/2009 08:13 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24408
04/29/2009 08:14 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24409
04/29/2009 08:15 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
Another shot of the blade. I think I need better scans of the blade.
|
|
|
#24410
04/29/2009 08:16 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
another of the blade.
Any other photos needed?
|
|
|
#24411
04/29/2009 08:17 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
#24412
04/29/2009 11:39 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
I have never seen anything like this... But, it looks gorgeous.
Can't find any ASSO etched examples in the Wittman Luft book.
Anyone have any ideas about this?
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24413
05/01/2009 02:30 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Jim:
You aren't getting a lot of responses to your questions, are you?
I wonder why?
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24414
05/01/2009 06:15 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31 |
The dagger itself seems to be original (what I can see from the pics). I am also not aware having seen an ASSO 2nd luft but the firm is listed in TTW�s book as a manufacturer and those small firms for sure do not come by very often.
The question is the etching and I am afraid that nobody can make a serious statement simply from pics and especially as they are not best quality, as it is a "non textbook" etching.
I am aware that there have been non textbook etchings during the period in various kinds. But unfortunately there is not much knowledge about them.
So concerning the etching I think somebody experienced can only give a statement after a close and very careful inspection in hands - if ever.
Perhaps a sharp and detailed closeup of the whole etching, both sides can led to a somehow general statement or opinion due to the definition of the letters, wording and so on.
Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
|
|
|
#24415
05/01/2009 06:32 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Wotan:
I have seen and actually have an ASSO maker marked Luft2 in my collection.
The dagger per se looks fine to me based on these pictures, but, as you have stated, this is an etch that doesn't seem to be pictured in the Wittman or Johnson books that I have.
It probably needs someone like Tom W or Tom J to hold in their hands to get a more definitive comment.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24416
05/01/2009 09:07 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
Thank you for the comments. I wanted to get the view of Woton and others before having people spend the money to have it vouched. This one is off to T. Whittman as he was not involved with this dagger previously.
Again, thank you
|
|
|
#24417
05/01/2009 09:45 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Jim:
I don't think there's any question that the dagger itself is fine. I would recommend some high resolution photos of the etch be sent to Frederick Stephens as well.
Jim
|
|
|
#24418
05/01/2009 10:24 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,134 Likes: 24
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,134 Likes: 24 |
Jim,
I'd have to agree with Jim M., the dagger itself appears completely original but I know you know your stuff so the real question is the blade's etch.
I'm not alone in saying I've never seen anything like that type of blade etch but this is nothing dispositive, there's lots out there no one's seen previously. Just for my own edification, I'd love to see a higher resolution picture or two of the blade etch, if you're able to post them, thanks.
GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
#24419
05/01/2009 11:06 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 1
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 1 |
Yea, the whole dagger looks legit and the tang mark is a known producer pre-1945. The etch needs to be evaluated by an expert.
|
|
|
#24420
05/02/2009 03:08 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
quote: Originally posted by jim m:
Jim:
I don't think there's any question that the dagger itself is fine. I would recommend some high resolution photos of the etch be sent to Frederick Stephens as well.
Jim
I concur with Jim. Back in mid 60' to mid 1970's the "good" fake blades etches originated out of England. And there is probably nobody who has seen more of those variations than Frederick. If you give him a ring he's out of the country for a bit now. -Serge-
|
|
|
#24421
05/02/2009 02:13 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
We appreciate all the comments. Here are a couple of scans. These show good detail although I had to make some serious adjustments to get it down to forum size. So, maybe this helps.
For what it is worth, this etch looks great to me. But, I am no expert, far from it.
|
|
|
#24422
05/02/2009 02:14 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
I see it is a little distorted. This is about the best I can do.
|
|
|
#24423
05/02/2009 02:16 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
Let us try another method.
|
|
|
#24424
05/02/2009 04:50 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 22
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 22 |
Actually, this isn't a completely unknown type of etch. Just very rare to see. Look at the top of page 321 of Wittmann's Navy book. You'll see etch patterns offered by E. Pack from one of their sales ads. This pattern is one of them. They note their example as for "Finanzbeamte", with RFV etched on the blade surrounded by an oakleaf pattern very similar to the one posted here. The land customs fell under the RFV, so I assume the reference in the sales ad is for a land customs blade (i.e. same style blade as Army & Luft dagger blades). You can see from the template in the E. Pack ad that the etch is narrow, and meant to fit in the center panel of the blade. (Side note: how rare would an etched land customs dagger be!? I've only seen a picture of one, but it was a standard Alcoso etch.)
Some years ago Howard Crouse had an unmarked E. Pack Army dagger that had this exact etch (the unique fittings and grip features clearly identified it as E. Pack). He had it for several years at the shows, and for a reasonable price, so people were obviously unsure about it. It struck me as real, but it was awhile before I came across the info in Tom's book verifying that this etch did in fact exist. By the next time I saw Howard it had already been sold.
It's hard to make a judgement about this piece. For one, as others have noted, it would be good to hold it for a hands-on view. Also, I don't know if this pattern was reproduced after the war. The lack of them at shows would seem to indicate that if they were reproduced, there were very few made. That doesn't seem to be the normal trend in reproductions, but I'm not a forger, so I can't say how they operate.
Just my 2 cents.
|
|
|
#24425
05/03/2009 12:29 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,321
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,321 |
For what it's worth, I like what i see and would have jumped at it. Makes sence and cost effective that this small firm would have sent out the blade to be etched by a larger firm.
Also it has been in knowing hands before it reached Bob let's seen what Tom Wittmann has to say. I love learning about this stuff, thanks for the insight Etched Blades.
EW
|
|
|
#24426
05/03/2009 05:15 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
I would like to thank everyone for their comments. Jim Billy Lakeside always good to hear.
Eric, I am sorry you missed this when I listed it on Worlddaggers. It went quick. I think it is underpriced as there will be COA with it.
The etch itself is exact to the flat of the blade and there is a matt background which I believe is absolutely proper.
There have been numerous people who have handled this, see the list in my first post, so I am not worried about it.
Again, thank you everyone.
Jim
|
|
|
#24427
05/03/2009 07:43 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Jim W:
Let us know how this turns out as etched examples like this are always interesting.
Jim M
|
|
|
#24428
05/16/2009 07:18 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
I would like to thank everyone connected with this discussion.
this dagger was sent to mutually agreed upon competant authority who judged this dagger is what it appears to be, an original period dagger.
The buyer has accepted the dagger. Anything further is up to him or her.
|
|
|
#24429
05/16/2009 07:37 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Jim:
Her? Is there something that I don't know here? Or is it your impression that the buyer, who happens to be me, is a little on the feminine side?
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24430
05/16/2009 10:08 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3
|
|
OP
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,919 Likes: 3 |
HI John,
I was not aware that you had been named as the buyer so I was keeping it neutral. It had nothing to do with you, simply ethics.
I sincerely apologyze for any misunderstanding.
Jim
|
|
|
#24431
05/16/2009 11:02 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
LOL John you didnt get caught cross dressing at the last SOS did you?
|
|
|
#24432
05/17/2009 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Jim: I was only kidding (not PMS  ) and Tom: In the old days, when incriminating photos came up, you could always buy the negatives. Now??? What happens at the SOS, stays at the SOS, methinks. John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24433
05/17/2009 01:23 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,134 Likes: 24
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,134 Likes: 24 |
I don't think you can beat a thread with a beautiful piece & a chuckle. Thank you gentlemen for the early morning laugh 
GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
#24434
05/17/2009 04:32 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Help:
Can you help me by telling me what the following inscription is?
The etch
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24435
05/17/2009 04:33 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
The first part is something like:
11 J.B.k or is it 11 I.B.k?
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24436
05/17/2009 04:34 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
The name:
Something like Will???n or Will??m
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24437
05/17/2009 04:35 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
The final part of the inscription reads
Hauptman u. Komp. Chef
Lieutenant and Company Chief?
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24438
05/17/2009 04:36 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Another view of the end of the etch.
Thank you for your help.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24439
05/17/2009 09:37 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5 |
John, this looks like 11 F.B.K. to me.
Ron Weinand
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
|
|
|
#24440
05/18/2009 05:46 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Ron:
Thanks.. any ideas what that would stand for?
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
#24441
05/19/2009 02:58 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,321
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,321 |
John,
Nice piece you have, kinda wished i seen it first.
Correct me if i'm wrong guy's, John i think it stands for 11th Flak Battalion Co. or 11 Flak Battery Co. and the guy's name looks to be "Wilheum", Lieutenant and co., "Chef" can translate to Boss or Chief, in this case i believe "Chief".
Someone with better knowledge can say for sure but i think were close.
P.S. I always had a hard time reading German Handwritting even in german class (3 years of german classes in H.S. and the teacher said we were now equal to the first grade level in germany, Money well spent!)
|
|
|
#24442
05/22/2009 08:12 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11 |
I think it stand for Flughafen-Betriebs-Kompaniet. The usual abbreviation is F.B.K (Nice Dagger  ) Best Jack
|
|
|
#24443
05/22/2009 11:30 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,134 Likes: 24
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,134 Likes: 24 |
John,
Great shots. Although a first name, do you think the name in question could be "Wilhelm"?
GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
|
|
|
#24444
05/22/2009 12:19 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049 |
Hauptmann translates as Captain?
|
|
|
#24445
07/06/2009 11:22 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,369
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,369 |
John,
I'm gald that you are happy with my favorite dagger ! I hated to sell it but life must go on and medical bills are a "B".
Bob
|
|
|
#24446
07/07/2009 12:15 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Bob:
I am proud to have this and those other rare maker marked Luft2s in my collection all because of you.
Thank you and keep well.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
|
|
|
|
Forums42
Topics31,695
Posts329,203
Members7,531
| |
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
|
|
|
9 members (Stephen, Evgeniy, den70, Larry C, Dave, Mat J, Billy G., Duzig, Documentalist),
523
guests, and
87
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]](http://www.germandaggers.com/minibanners/lst.jpg)
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
.JPG){kind=link}
