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#242714 04/05/2011 04:06 PM
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Hi All:

I came across a SA membership card for sale on Helmut Weitze's website that caught my attention. This SA member received the SA-Ehrendolch from authorization by Röhm in June 1934. This fact in itself caught my eye, particularly since the man had not joined the SA until 1 May 1933 (usually needed to be a continuous member since 31 December 1931). On the added notation, it looks to me that the SA Mann had been involved in a fight with communists that resulted in him having both arms amputated. Certainly grounds for such an honor. Guess his SA-Ehrendolch wouldn't have had many runner marks on the blade. You can see it at:

https://www.weitze.net/detail/77/SA_Ausw...SA__142777.html

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com


"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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"Guess his SA-Ehrendolch wouldn't have had many runner marks on the blade."

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry…. from laughing. laugh
Wow… nice one!
HA!


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My Avatar = My dagger security system! wink
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Interesting, Ross. This reminds me of the SS "Rohm" dagger with serial numbers attributed to Horst Schurer. You found no record of his having belonged to the SA prior to the required date, either. Schurer was one of the very early hand-selected members of Hitler's personal bodyguard. It would appear exceptions were made to the membership/date requirement, unless, of course, the dagger recipient otherwise qualified through other Nazi memberships. It would seem "special cases" may have resulted in the awarding of the dagger to some individuals.

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Very interesting Ross, this SA man may have also qualified for the second strike Blood Order as well for being badly wounded in service to the Party

Grumpy #242752 04/06/2011 12:33 PM
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We still have a lot to learn about these awards. Documentary evidence such as this SA-Ausweis help unravel the story which is why I keep an eye for them. For my money, I prefer to own objects whose personal associations can be unquestionably documented. The Schürer case still remains unclear to me.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

stammrollen1B.JPG (77.91 KB, 214 downloads)
fragebogen1A.jpg (87.9 KB, 215 downloads)

"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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That's understandable, Ross, but I don't have as much faith in their record keeping and the strictness of their regulations that you do. No doubt, that was their intention and, for the most part, the case. There are many anomalies in this hobby and, once in a while, the accepted "wisdom" gets thrown for a loop and variants are seen. The Schurer dagger is unquestionably a genuine "Rohm" example. One could argue the numbers were added postwar, if the proper dies were used. But, you could say that about any dagger with serial numbers. Documentation, though comforting, is no absolute guarantee SS numbers were applied during the period. The same holds true for engraved inscriptions, etc. All I will say about the "Schurer" numbers is that they are appropriate for the period, are deeply set and appear both on the lower cross guard and top of the scabbard throat. That Schurer does not appear on any SA documentation qualifying him for the dagger does not convince me the numbers are spurious. Others, of course, have a different view.

Grumpy #242789 04/07/2011 12:28 AM
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According to the document he was not awarded the Blood Order.

Erich #242790 04/07/2011 01:16 AM
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He was among the 117 chosen by Dietrich for the Stabwache in the early 1930's, the first official group of Hitler's bodyguards. He rose quickly through the ranks and was the staff officer armorer of the 1st Bn., LAH, in 1940. He later headed the SS mountain troops training school. Schurer was from Dresden and is listed as a mechanic on the Stabwache personnel list. I don't know who or what his connection was, but he obviously had at least one.

Grumpy #242791 04/07/2011 01:49 AM
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http://www.dws-xip.pl/reich/biografie/numery/numer54.html

The above link indicates Schurer's NSDAP number is 923 765, as indicated on his record.

Last edited by Grumpy; 04/07/2011 01:51 AM.
Grumpy #242807 04/07/2011 01:14 PM
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Perhaps we should continued the discussion with the Schürer dagger with my earlier posting. It appears quite interesting.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=238280#Post238280

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com


"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
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I think it comes down to whether any Rohm daggers were approved or issued without strict adherence to the established policy. In other words, were there exceptions? The SA dagger noted above indicates there were. Also, consideration must be given to the accuracy and completeness of pertinent records. As I understand it, one could have been a member of the HJ during the established time frame and would have been qualified to receive the dagger. If I recall correctly, Schurer was in his early twenties when he was selected as a member of the Stabswache, leaving open the possibility he was an HJ member just a few years prior. Of course, he was an SS member when he joined the Stabswache in the early 1930's. All kinds of theories could be put forth regarding these daggers, who received them and why, but it proves nothing. The Schurer dagger is genuine. I have no reason to doubt the numbers. In fact, they are different sizes for the cross guard and the scabbard throat, but in the same style. A glass half full or a glass half empty?

Grumpy #242850 04/08/2011 01:53 PM
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Hi Grumpy:

Records can be incomplete and inaccurate. I can't tell you how many times I have thought I have identified a numbered SS dagger to a person from one list and find that the number was typed incorrectly when I pull the man's files. None of Schürer's records indicate membership in the HJ. That said, I again point out that you should take a look at my recent posting about your dagger here which may support the attribution:

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=238280#Post238280

Regards,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com


"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.

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