#24111
04/24/2010 06:33 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2 |
What do You think - good or bad ?
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#24112
04/24/2010 06:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2 |
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#24113
04/24/2010 06:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2 |
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#24114
04/24/2010 06:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2 |
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#24115
04/24/2010 07:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
Looks good to me Piotrek, but I am no expert in Damascus blades. BTW. Do you know that they produce those blades till date? With no motto though Here's another damascus - this time guaranteed original ...(as per description ) If something is to good to be truth - probably isn't.
hh.jpg (28.4 KB, 801 downloads)
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#24116
04/24/2010 02:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
Also I noticed ageing looks decent on your blade - at least it fits the scabbard and the crossguards.
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#24117
04/24/2010 04:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Like others, I am no expert on damascus, but the workmanship, motto and pattern of the metal are impressive. My impression is that it is of the TR period.
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#24118
04/24/2010 05:40 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 1 |
Yes there are even a few RZM marked Damascus SA's.
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#24119
04/24/2010 06:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2 |
Come on Paul tell us what are Your thoughts about this SA dagger and its blade ?
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#24120
04/24/2010 06:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,024 Likes: 1 |
My friend I do not consider myself an expert on damascus. What little education I have on these has cost me dearly in some very expensive mistakes. I tend to learn to do it right by doing it wrong first! I do like the maker mark, well at least it's not one that I've seen reproduced before. I think this one has a chance of being right. There a couple guys here that are way better than me. Hopefully they will participate...
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#24121
04/24/2010 06:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Gottlieb, have you looked at the tang to see if it's marked?
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#24122
04/24/2010 06:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
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OP
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not yet but i will - the dagger is not mine right now but it is on hold for me.
Current owner knows nothing about the daggers so I will not force him to unscrew it.
When we will meet i will make a hand inspection by myself.
By the way how the tang should be marked ?
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#24123
04/24/2010 06:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,377
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,377 |
What you have here is,IMO, an acid etched blade simulating damascus forged steel The pattern is too uniform with no variation in pattern depth to be otherwise. Seiler
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#24124
04/24/2010 08:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
The tang could be marked in a variety of ways. Could just be a number. Could also be initials, "damast," or a name. May not be marked at all.
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#24125
04/24/2010 09:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
I would like James (DAMAST) to have a look for his input on what kind of Damascus he thinks it is. But from what I think I'm seeing, it's actually Damascus steel. When I took a closer look inside the etching. I see what looks like the same etched "grain" pattern inside it, that looks like it's continued right beside it on the surface. Pretty amazing stuff I think, with nice neat even borders and bottoms, when compared to the (so called) "H�hnlein" NSKK daggers by Eickhorn. FP
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#24126
04/24/2010 09:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
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I agree it appears to be genuine damast.
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#24127
04/24/2010 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
quote: Here's another damascus - this time guaranteed original ...(as per description ) If something is to good to be truth - probably isn't.
Blade of the chained dagger posted by M|ke_PL is 100% fake. I mean it, I saw the tang. Let's see what price it will reach. I bet the owner will be happy with 20% of the real one As for Henckels: To see the tang photo is a must. It IS amazing the damascus pattern is EXACTLY the same as on H�hnlein dagger. There is no 2 identical fingerprints yet. After the blank damascus blades for SA, LW, Army appeared on ebay, it was obvious that new generation of "special daggers" would arrive.
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#24128
04/24/2010 10:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,336 Likes: 5
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,336 Likes: 5 |
The blade is damascus. Would have to see this thing 1st hand and would have to disassemble for sure...You cannot spend much on it.. Regards: James
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#24129
04/25/2010 12:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,426
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,426 |
I have big doubts about this blade/blades
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#24130
04/25/2010 01:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693 |
I am far from an expert on Damascus so I will go out on a limb and say I do not like this blade. Best Wishes, Bob
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#24131
04/25/2010 07:45 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
For sure the blade is damascus, I quite like what I see, unusual to see just the twins on the back as a maker mark, most but not all blades in my experience feature the name JA Henckels as well.
Gary
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#24132
04/25/2010 08:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
I have a couple of damascus bits, all mine are Eickhorn Honor Daggers so I have never had a Henkels one but these are my thoughts.
1. The dedication and makers marks should be raised. From these pictures they look like they are engraved into the blade???. 2. I would have also expected the makers mark to be fire guilded. 3. The guilding looks more like leaf to me as it should be a very shiny bright gold colour. 4. There is no wear to the guilding and normally it has worn down from normal scabbard removal. Again if it is engraved not raised this would explain this.
Need to have a good look at the tang but I would suggest on balance there is a very good chance it is fake.
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#24133
04/25/2010 01:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
My apologies for forgetting my manners. New technology, please permit me to introduce you to Old technology. PS: I�m fairly certain that it is not raised. From what look like shadows on the left side - especially with the �... lles f� ..� in the first image posted. FP
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#24134
04/25/2010 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
I'm almost sure that "Henckels" motto is deep (etched) not a raised one. Even if gold finish to the letters looks quite convincing, there is too many question marks: 1. Why the damascus pattern lines are identical to "H�hnlein" NSKK dagger by Eickhorn pictured in reference book? 2. Why the distance between motto and crossguard is bigger than usual? (looks like Eickhorn R�hm) 3. Did Henckels produce damascus SA blades at all? Anyone there who's seen them before? (don't think so...)
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#24135
04/25/2010 02:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
I don't think the motto and trademark are raised, but this would not be an honor dagger and it's not an "Eickhorn." I don't know whether it's "real" or not, but is it not possible to have a period damascus blade with an etched or engraved motto? My knowledge is limited, but I thought any manufacturer could order an etched or damascus blade if the customer desired one. If "real," I would think the blade was subcontracted for manufacture, not made "in house." It may also be the original owner, or someone else, ordered the blade directly from the damast smith. I would also speculate the blade was to replace the polished one at some point in time for unknown reasons and that it is unlikely, though not impossible, the dagger came directly from the factory with this blade. Hopefully, the tang will shed greater light on it.
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#24136
04/25/2010 02:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,304
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,304 |
quote: Originally posted by 777:
1. Why the damascus pattern lines are identical to "H�hnlein" NSKK dagger by Eickhorn pictured in reference book?
This to me, is the most troubling aspect of this damascus blade. There can never be two perfectly identical damascus pattern but these two damascus blades are obviously identicalNow, the big question is, why is it so ? Simply because it is........... FAKE.Anyone thinking otherwise will need some serious debating to prove his point. This is actually one of the most serious discovery in the now infamous "Huhnlein NSKK" saga.It now proves without a doubt IMO that many, if not most, Huhnlein NSKK daggers are highly controversial.
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#24137
04/25/2010 04:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Like I said I only have Honor daggers and they have raised dedications and makers marks. I know and accept that there are variations and accepted reasons for some pieces. But I have to say I 100% agree with Pat on this, how on earth can you get a completely identical Damascus pattern. Maybe similer but its identical???? and from a different maker?.I mean they are hand made and the way they are finnished would mean that even slight variations in treatment would change the pattern and depth. The law of probability says its 99999.99% against IMO. Maybe its a ground Huhnlein???? or someones collection of NSKK blades are now more valuable as Henkels SAs???. Or it could be the exact same blade removed and re worked from the chained NSKK?
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#24138
04/25/2010 04:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,336 Likes: 5
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,336 Likes: 5 |
Original Eickhorn Honor daggers are Quite rare. The Damascus blades on these daggers are about as close to a Damascus (mass production) dagger as you can get. The Damascus blade material could be provided by a smith or a outside steel forging house that provided blanks..These blanks were dropped forged in dies.Now about the blade that started this.. Guys please read the thread there are NO two blades alike... Fred in his post is comparing the same blade..... This blade in this post is very suspect. I have seen a SA Honor dagger with a Henckels Damascus blade before (was it real???) (very strange) Sometimes I feel as this forum is a big (testing ground.)
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#24139
04/25/2010 05:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
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Hi DAMAST I'm not testing the ground. My knowledge about damst blades is very limited. The dagger I give You to discuss I offered to me and the sellers knowledge about the daggers at all is totally zero.
The dagger was found in western part of Poland by the old guy in his own house where the germans durring the WWII used to live. Now he wants to sell it and the price is very reasonalbe. If it was a dagger seller I would be more suspicious but in this situation .... ??
Tell me what to do - take risk and buy it or leave it and run away ?
I would pick it up in person but this would not help I guess because I have no damast experience...
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#24140
04/25/2010 06:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
If it's really out of woodwork from the old guy with no knowledge and the price is reasonable (depends also what do you mean), I'd give it a try. After all the other parts are genuine. I don't know the full story, but still, I'd be carefull. I've heard to many sensational stories about stuff being found "in the barn by a farmer", that whenever I hear something like this I'm getting more doubts. Behind the old guy, there can be his nephew who's into militaria, got fake dagger somewhere and now looks for a $ucker. Anyway, I believe the "old fox" like you will not be easy to cheat.
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#24141
04/25/2010 06:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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OP
Joined: Dec 2007
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After a "mind storm" I passed on this piece. It is back for sale so other can jump on it :-).
After so many years of collecting I preffer TEXTBOOK examples.
tahnks for all Your inputs !!!!
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#24142
04/25/2010 10:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
First, If I caused some confusion I sincerely apologize. It was my intention to better illustrate what was looking like �grain� via black and white - contrasted with the original color image. If the blade �grain� matches a published picture in a book, that is another matter, and ties in with some of my thoughts. So many good points have been it�s going to be hard to capsulize them. But �gold� is �gold�. With the only thing that can really change it being what is underneath which can scatter the light. And if the �grain� lines do exactly copy those in a book, that suggests artificial Damascus. Which is where it gets interesting, because not only can a laser �etch� the motto. It could also be used to help make the �grain� pattern instead of (or in conjunction with) a conventional acid mask. Which could be an operation subsequent to the motto (but I really need to do some work on the sequence of events and feasibility as it's only a concept at the moment). Followed up (of course) like the post manufacture acid baths with some of the �H�hnlein� blades. l would also mention in passing that the scabbard here looks like it might be a repaint. quote: Sometimes I feel as this forum is a big (testing ground.)
As for the above thought: I�m kind of getting the same feeling myself. With some of the pictures I�ve seen posted lately �dumbed down� for example to 35 pixels. Not a good sign IMO. Best Regards to All, FP
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#24143
04/25/2010 11:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Well, it's too bad we can't see the tang after all this discussion. Again, my knowledge of damascus is greatly limited, but I do know no damascus blades can be identical in pattern. The painted scabbard Fred notes would not necessarily concern me since most NSKK scabbards are painted SA examples. The tang could tell us volumes, or could tell us nothing at all.
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#24144
04/26/2010 01:11 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
Grumpy, No argument there. Pictures of the tang, and some more of the blade a lot closer up would really help.
I also don't have a problem with the idea of repainting, but more of what I seem to be seeing in the images. There are some areas where it looks like there is paint over imperfections on the scabbard body. Some runs? How fresh looking it is as compared to the tarnished mounts? But my biggest problem is the big dent in the scabbard body. When I try to look at it closer, my sense of it is that the painting was done over the dent. Supposedly by, or at the request, of somebody who paid extra to have a dagger with a special order blade? My point simply being that the scabbard for me would be another area of interest. Regards, Fred
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#24145
04/26/2010 01:44 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
No doubt the scabbard should be scrutinized during a "hands on" examination. If everything else was "right," a postwar painted (or repainted) scabbard would not concern me much, although it might bother others. I do not have the optical enhancement capability Fred has, so can't get too involved with the scabbard details. I would note, for what it's worth, the big dent is on the reverse. I'm not sure the scabbard would not have been painted over "as is." Some paint jobs on these things were just awful, not always "factory" done or anything close. I think I can see a few chips in the finish. None of this establishes when the scabbard was painted. All in all, it is a relatively minor point, but whatever the paint looks like "in person," could certainly contribute to one's conclusion about the rig. The single thing of most concern is the blade. If it's fake, the rest is pretty much insignificant.
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#24146
04/26/2010 05:33 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
quote: "I do not have the optical enhancement capability Fred has," I�m sorry, that�s my mistake and I should have provided an image, which is easily rectified. While not everyone may make the same interpretation, what I see is a dent that looks fairly deep. Having what looks to me like excess paint pooled inside of the dent, with at least three undamaged paint puddles to the left. And no visible sign of whatever caused the dent breaking the painted surface. With along the sides, what looks like some bare metal spots, which is repeated on the other side. With my point still being, I can understand why somebody who could barely afford a dagger might make do with a bad paint job, using a paint brush or whatever was at hand. But a Damascus blade, real or simulated, is a higher cost special order item. Which I think would indicate more financial resources. With (relatively) low cost factory repair available to make repairs including factory refinishing. This is just a general observation from information I have noted over a period of time: Even as some original NSKK daggers have "donated" their blued scabbards to "upgrade" SS daggers. Some SA daggers with little or no original finish have become "NSKK" daggers. Because in a postwar setting, black paint is a lot easier to find than the right shade (or shades) of brown. Best Regards to All, Fred
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#24147
04/26/2010 03:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
You are correct, Fred, about the scabbard swapping. I,too, have seen it many times. The scabbard paint is indeed subject to interpretation. I agree it would seem someone who had a dagger with a damascus blade could do better on the scabbard. A "flag" to be considered, to be sure. But, there is no definitive answer, at least not based on photos alone. The original owner may not have been all that particular, the scabbard could have been replaced or painted post-war, etc. I would still like to get a look at that tang!
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#24148
05/03/2010 09:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
I think it brings some new light to this topic: All at once at the same auction site where discussed dagger is listed there has been more damascus daggers appeared. There is SA High Leader, NPEA Leader (with dedication for best student! ), Army and chained SS (see my other topic http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...28099473/m/430108055 ). I'm not surprised after seeing blank damascus blades on ebay...
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#24149
05/04/2010 05:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
Here is a variation of the motto lettering with visible �grain�. And a link to the topic where there is additional information. FP New breed (of fakes)
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#24150
05/05/2010 06:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,403
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,403 |
Is the spine on the blade also a little too pronounced?
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