UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Imperial German Uniforms, Orders, and Decorations Traditionsabzeichen Braunschweiger Husaren Regimen

Hi Imperialcollectors!

Im hoping, for anyone, that knows more then a bit on these Braunschweiger Totenköpfchen. The small Schirmmütze skullies, not the big awesome Pelzmütze skulls! These little ones are about 2,5 centimetres by 2,5 centimetres (about 1 inch by 1 inch) Theres 2 kinds of these Schirmmützetotenköpfchen, the private purchases, and the service issues. There are 2 of the private purchase in the shots as attached. The little skull on the left, is the issued. This has a bit of a funny look in its eyesockets, no? I like it tho, gives it something sweet'ish. Anyhow, I know, I cant just barge in, asking "hey this good?", so, I did homework! Triedto find anything on these. Pics, infos, books, sites. Somehow, its dreadful, finding anything? So, I tried to look at the prongs and the details and to any info anything anywhere tells us. But I cant find out, how to find out, if these are genuine or not? They also have no makermark, so, I cant just look at what maker made what detail? Not that I know anyhow. So, Im hoping to discuss these 3 skullies, to find out, if these are correct or not. The skullie on the left, the issued funny one, is made of zink (I think), a lighter metal? So, possible made late(r) in war? The other 2 are heavier. The issued one has 3 prongs. I attached shots of the back to show these. The other 2 private purchased, have both 2 prongs. The middle has the prongs from forehead and bones, the right skullie has both the prongs from above the nose. Another diffrence is that the middle skullie has solid bones? The right skullie has hollow bones. Ill post closer up pics of these 3 skullies to show better, yes? If anyone needs another view, just say it, I dont know what side or detail is important? Any comments most welcome! Thanks

Bye,
KR

This is the (zink made?) issued skull ..

The one in the middle ..

.. and the one on the right. Thanks much for looking and anything infowise in advance!

Bye,
KR

Hi K, I have one I can post for comparison purposes. Must find it.
The skull with the solid bones could probably use some discussion.

--dj--Joe

Here is my traditions skull.
Please disregard the green pencil.
--dj--Joe

Hi Joe!

Thanks much for showing your skullie! I think, I know that one, and it looks like the skullie with the hollow bones, yes? Your skullies eyes are a wee bit smaller .. And your right! The solid boned skullie, also the bones are linked, and the inside is weird green, some coppery greened but its not copper. So that, and the prongs, feel less bendable, when I try to slightly bend them. The frontside looks very like the other tho, but I dont know what to look for? But hey you think the funny grin skullie/ service issued is OK then? That would be great! I like that one, they seem to be hard to find? Oh and someone told me, zink for that Totenköpfchen, would never be possible? Cause zink was only used in 3rd Reich/WWII for cheapo metal. But these Braunschweig Hussars, they were also active that time! For anyone that doubts it, the attached picture. Its rrrrrealy hard to tell, but, theres Totenköpfen on their headwear! The pic in hand shows this very well, and the scan at least tries to. The back tells "Ferien in Hochland 1933" (Holiday in Hochfeld). Hochfeld, city in Duisburg Germany, some 300 kilometres away? But they are Totenkopf Husaren right there! And I think Braunschweiger, the Totenkopf is not as big as the Preußen Husaren have on the busby. I wouldnt know if 1933 is correct, but, no reason to doubt, and look at the swastika flag beneath the big 3 striped flag from the house? Awesome shot no? Little Leibhusaren and Braunschweiger skull were seen in the German army, on the Schirmmütze. So I think new skullies would be made from cheap metals during WWII. Anyhow Thanks Joe for your infos! Please anyone, anything on the skulls?

Bye,
KR

K, I think the issue piece is OK. Are you sure it's a zinc alloy? How light weight is it? Is it magnetic? White metal. Plated stamped steel. Plated brass. Aluminum.

Zinc alloys were used in WWI, some medals and machinegunners badges for a few examples.

--dj--Joe

Woops! OK, I have 1 vote OK, 1 vote not OK, and 1 reservation (thats me! But hoping its OK, ofcourse).



Nope! I dont know what metal it is? I only went for the looks so far .. will see if it can be found out!



It is exactly 2.488 grams



Nope!



Yes! White'ish anyways?



Eeeeeerrrrm I think, no to the 1st, no the 2nd, and maybe to the 3rd ..



Then, maybe, a VERY faint candlelight still burns, as hope for this skullie .. ? Ill try to find out about the metal .. Thanks Joe!

Cheers,
KR

Hmmm. After further checking the teeth on the issue skull do appear to be too defined.
It sure looks well made though. Perhaps it will show up in a picture some day.

--dj--Joe

Joe YES, ah well, learning never is cheap. Theres books and time to read and then the fakes you find to teach about real, no? So, OK, the middle is a def "not OK", you agree? The service issue, is a most probably "not OK". But, it also looks very very much like some sold by a great respected dealer, Im still looking into it. What about the other? The right? This looks like a good variant but the bones dont point upward enuff at the ends? But it also looks very like the middle, and that is not good at all! And both look NOT like yours too. Did some regiments have their own skull variant? Or did makers make their own variants?

Karin Renate & Joe,

A great topic here, however, it might prove difficult getting some good definitive answers concerning authenticity?

I agree with Joe that knowledge of metals and alloys and when they were used is imperative when identifying original death's heads. I'd venture to say it might be even more demanding than identifying original SS skull insignia, simply because the longer time-span in which the Hussar skulls were produced allows for many more variations of the motif.

Karin, you asked if the makers would produce originals having their own unique traits in design and manufacture? I would answer that with a definte yes ... variations on a theme for well over a hundred years. Some of the differences might be obvious and easy to spot, while other aspects much more subtle and difficult to discern at best. I think years of search and study, copious notes and plenty of photographs would be in order to make a thorough study. Several trips to military museums and uniform and visor cap collections would be necessary to establish exactly what is one-hundred percent correct, and even then one must proceed with extreme caution - museums may also choose to fill a gap in their collections with substitutions and/or reproductions.

The NS-period Assmann catalog illustrates five different "old-style" skull motifs, to include the "issue-type" and the example on the right, let's call it version "c." One thing that's easily seen is the area of the nasal septum, the cavities are sharp, clear and near equal in size, not having one space larger than the other. So is this attribute specific to Assmann skulls only, or are other original cast examples less-prone to having these balanced openings? What about earlier hand-finished castings, surely those exist too? What about the support braces on the piece in the middle, are those a legitimate design feature used by some makers or can we rule that out? All these questions and many more would have to be answered to gain solid ground in identifying the originals. There are also examples having an entirely open nasal cavity with no seperation at all, possibly another genuine variable?

Sorry to propose more questions without adding something more substantial than my small observation, but if we give it time and add further details we may be able to come to some basic conclusions. Perhaps some helpful collector with a real example or more might take pity and add some photos, insights and details to help us further along? I look forward to any additional comments or suggestions.

Best!

Bill

Ps note that the first Kyffhäuser-Mützenabzeichen image is upside down ... heh, even these guys made the occasional faux pas.

Braunschweiger - great liverwurst too!

Hi William!

Im still busy with your reply, like you know, and I ~~think~~ I found something totally looking the same as one Totenkopf in your amazing Assmann Katalog, but, more bout that later. Where did you ever find that? These must be crazily rare? Thanks very very much for posting this, its already a big help! For now, I think, Im very sure the weird middle skull is blatantly fake. Its a cast, not a struck/cut out, its also too smooth at outside edges, the nostrils are coarse. Still, the shipping cost more money then the skull so its a great exemple of what SURELY NOT to look for. The one on the right, well, still not sure but somehow another of these with prongs very similar showed up somewhere, and also, these prongs, when you think of how they got pinned to caps, I dunno, its just, seems not very sollidly fastened with such prongs? t wants to look like an Assmann 16455, but, I think more and more its not good, but not sure yet. The left, the issued skullie, I still love the looks, and I didnt see another anywhere, but, still not sure, the nostrils seem way too big, and edges too coarse, like cheaper produced stuff maybe. Its surely NOT in the OK basket yet.

So, reckon that was a bit of a false start. Lets see if this can make it up a bit? This awesome little Totenköpfchen looks truly similar to the one on shots from Braunschweiger 17. Regiment, the shape of bones, the little eyes, the nose and teeth? Looks like a win! Its made of copper, I think, with something of a very worn silvery coating. The right bone is a little bend but not too much. The back looks full of oxidation. The prongs are good too. Very goodlooking little skull!

The first shot, the background, I truly love that so very much .. A little bit applying to today too; valentines! They seem a very lovely couple! Yes, its truly priceless that ... Second shot, of the back, has a background of the Braunschweiger Regiment 17er behind his machinegun, as shooter. Pretty big gun, no? A couple of officers behind the gunmen. At the back of the shot is written "Münster 1932". Rest of the shots, closeups. This one skullie, is in the OK basket! Any more out there? Pics or skullies?

Enjoy,
KR

The shots used as background in previous post are very nice! Here they are, scanned for better view, plus some others. They belong to a bunch of pics, from a Braunschweiger Regiment 17 Offizier. There are SO many pics there, from when the Offizier was not yet offizier yet too, so, from Reichswehr to 1939, written at backs. Firstly my superfavorite shot of the pile! Then, a great shot of the shouldercap; 17 clear to see. Then, the big whoppin machinegun. After that I think 2 buddies from the Regiment, theres more shots of these 2 in the pile, like the next/last shot, ha ha, maybe after celebrating of reaching rank of officers? Maybe Im gonna try to see who the guy was. Things are written at backs of shots, and I think even a name, but, cant quite make anything of it, yet. Anyhow, enjoy.

Bye,
KR

Now that one has the look K. You should have no doubts about that one. Pins look period.

Some items were copper plated 1st. then silver plated.

--dj--Joe

Hi Joe YESS! Thanks for the great comment! Copper plated AND silver plated you say? Why was that? Oh, and, Ive been looking for books on these, but, nothing anywhere! Some sites are helpful and your exemple and Williams Katalog are too. Probably some uniform book has at least a page or 2 on these? Anyone know of this? This or this any good for these skullies?

Bye,
KR

I don't know if this is what you are looking for but go to bookfinder.com and put this in to search for Book is in German!: Die Braunschweiger Husaren im Weltkriege 1914-1918. Hier in 2 Bänden komplett ! - 1. 1914 - 1915. / 2. 1916 bis 1918.

Hi Lloyd!

Yes that looks truly like a very impressive book! What a price tho, no? Wow .. I see 2 books, not a set, both only the volume 1? For 80 bucks. And the set of 2 books volume 1 and volume 2, for 600? Woops! Ofcourse if you buy just the volume 1, youll see, the info you really want? Is in book 2 Thanks for that tip, this is great to hunt for! Do you have it? Seems it has lotsof shots!
Ive got a little bit of background put together from books and magazines and sites, maybe I should post that? Maybe someone someday can add info? Or not ...

I was also looking at "Freiwilliger Jäger bei den Totenkopfhusaren" by Karl Litzmann, but, these are WAY expensive too? And mainly text, some 2 shots or something. Totenkopfhusaren, is Leibhusaren Regiment 1, Leibhusaren Regiment 2 Königin Viktoria, and the Braunschweiger 17. and 92. Infanterie Regiment. The Braunschweiger pinned the skull I posted above and the ones Williams Katalog show on the headwear, and, the Preußischen Husaren plus Danziger Polizei and Danziger Feurwehr had these for small skullies, right? So, not the gorgeously big busbyskulls, but the Schirmmützen Totenköpfchen. The finish is rubbed off and it was buried in dirt and roughly cleaned, but, all details are there; the cracks and trianglelike nosey and inward raised little eyes and the double row of tiny teeth.

Bye,
KR

Its official! The 3 little skulls I started the topic with are all wrong and fake, so, if you ever see a skull like it, leave it alone!! Or pin it to yer camerabag, I did, looks awesome, BUT, All the other skullies in here are real and very good. Great! Just so you know ..

Bye,
KR

KR,

Braunschweig-related ...

Best!

W~

William, wow, what is it? A crest, in a book? Or, on something? Where did you find this? Surely very amazing! Please tell more?

Karin,

Saw this item on eBay recently, one of the Duke's personal bookplates. It seems to be a nice woodcut.

Best!

W~

Thanks William! OK, so, its from "that" lot! Amazing ... I learned about the auctioned things on another forum. So many way personal and beautiful stuff sold! The prices, got pretty scary tho, from the few things I saw *LOL*

Bye,
KR