UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Police Bayonets - Eickhorns

Those of you who know me, know that I like Eick.

I have managed to acquire several police bayonets, all Eickhorns, of course.

I am here to share them with you.

First up is a clamshell double oval serrated tail Feldjager piece.

Next is a long double oval serrated tail squirrel over CE version.

Just before Christmas, I received this short, private purchase police bayonet with a double oval serrated tail over CE TM.

Here are the two double oval serrated tail pieces side by side.

Next I have for you admittedly poor shots of my 35-41 seated squirrel version of the long bayonet.

Last, but certainly not least, here is a rare bird indeed.

This is a clamshell version of the long bayonet with the 35-41 seated squirrel TM. There may have been a 6 month period where this configuration was issued, and then the clamshells were gone. I wonder how many of the ones that were produced survived with the clamshells intact?

Now, the hunt is on for the other Eickhorn blades and marks.

John

John,

As always, your postings are a treat. You've got some rare birds in there, all are super conditioned too. Makes a police bayonet guy like me green with envy. Well done sir.

One question, does the '35-'41 Eick clamshell have an aluminum hilt? Did it come from Ron W.? I know he had one in his hands a year or two ago.

Billy's right, these are great police bayos. That feldjager is fantastic. I took a recent pic of my police bayos. The piece at the top is a slotted aluminum 35-41 Eickhorn piece. Hope you like em.

Billy:

Thank you for your envy

The eagle pommel, the grip eagle and the clam shell are all non-magnetic, while the cross guard is magnetic. And, yes, this one did come from Ron... and, as you can imagine, it was certainly not cheap!

John

Why do you think the long clamshell with 35-41 seated squirrel was in production only six months John? The order to remove clamshells was issued in Spring 1938 and the oakleaf eagle began use in mid 1936. So that is almost two years of production possibility.

JW:

My bad... I thought that the time frame was much shorter.

Despite this, I would think that most clam shells would have been removed unless the owner had retired or hidden it away.

When I showed this around at the MAX, the consensus was that this combination of TM and fittings and clam shell was very rare to find.

John

John

I didn't disagree with your contention that it is a rare bird and most clam shells would have been removed because of the 1938 order to shorten and remodel the long Prussian bayonets. I merely clarified the historical context of the events. And that last CE is a beautiful piece. I am envious. I am curious if there are acceptance marks on the upper spine of the blade and the reverse of the scabbard fittings by the staples? And it has no unit marking.

My long III Reich police clamshell is unfortunately not a CE. I have an unmodified Prussian Schupo clamshell with double oval CE trademark



and a modified Gendarmerie double oval CE TM remarked for a mot. Gendarmerei unit.

John, I forgot to also ask if your Prussian Schupo/FJK is a private purchase piece (Extra Waffe)? I couldn't get a sense of length from the photo. Does it have any acceptance marks on the spine or scabbard fittings? I would suppose not if it is a private purchase piece.

The two CEs have blades (measured from the cross guard) of 10 1/2 and 13 inches respectively. The clam shell blade length is 17 inches.

There are no markings on the short one, as expected.

The long one has the cross guard markings of P.Bd.230. as seen in the pictures. I have not taken off the frog to see what is on the scabbard (ever since I broke one trying to do exactly that).

But there is a number '37' on the top of the scabbard and the same number is on the spine along with a small asterisk and either the number '8' or the letter 'B'. I will take pics of the spine tomorrow, but here is a shot I took of the scabbard top.

John

John,

Here is an example of the long clamshell version in gold by Eickhorn.

John, I think I confused you with my request. You showed in order five CE blades: 1)short Prussian police/FJK, 2)Nazi/Prussian (in frog P.Bd.mrkings)shortened to stnd length and 3) private purchase blade, 4)long Nazi no clamshell and finally 5)long Nazi with clamshell.

The info you gave was 1) has no markings, 2)13" blade and *B and 37 assembly marks shown in picture above, 3) 10 1/2' blade but no info on the other two except 5) has 17" blade.

Is 4) also a 17" blade? What are the markings on the spine of 4) and 5)? I am trying to see if an approximate production date can be established (either before or after) if there is an acceptance (*B or *K) on the spine. These were acceptance marks used by the Prussian police acceptance offices from 1929 through about 1935/36. The acceptances did not change after Jan 30, 1933 but presumably did stop after Himmler nationalized the police in June 1936.

I appreciate your help. Problem is sometimes the acceptances are not found on obvious Prussian blades.

Beautiful George. The mystery gold/brass fixture police bayonet. Is there any identification of use of this style found in your extensive period catalog collection? I still haven't found it identified in any period Prussian/Third Reich clothing regulations.

First of all, ORPO and Fitzer, those are beautiful bayos indeed.

Congratulations for such fine pieces.

I just stumbled onto the beauty and the desirability of these neat items. For a while, I was only wanting one of each, a short and a long version of the police and of the clamshells, all Eicks of course. Then, I picked up a beauty of a 35-41 marked long at an SOS (thank you TKissinger), and all heck broke loose.

JW

Here is more info on my bayos.

1) Feldjager - double oval serrated tail no CE, blade length is 10.5 inches, no spine markings, no scabbard markings and has a gold washed appearance

2) Long double oval serrated tail CE - here are more shots of the spine stamping

3) Short double oval serrated tail CE - no spine markings

4) Long 35-41 seated squirrel - blade length is 13 inches, no spine stampings, no scabbard markings, working lug and rifle slot

5) Long 35-41 seated squirrel clam shell - blade length is 17 inches, no spine stampings, no scabbard markings.

John

Thank you John for this info.It would appear that 5) was of the last production of these style bayonets as it lacks the * acceptance stamp and a property marking. These two items were phased out of use in the period 1936/37. But the long length III Reich clamshells were continued in production through 1938. The police manual PDV 13 for blade sidearms dated April 1938 shows a long clamshell with III Reich eagle as an issue sidearm.

Now 4) is really a standard length III Reich police bayonet probably of 1939-1941 production. The 13 inch length was the standard length adopted for new production and to which all older 17 inch Prussian bayonets were to be cut. The cut bayonets were called "verkürzt" or "shortened". This phrase has lead to some misunderstanding and subsequent misinformation offered on police bayonets used by the Water Police in books by Angolia and Johnson. A translation of Water Police clothing regulations used by Angolia and then by Johnson noted that the Water Police carried a short police bayonet. The regulations actually noted the Water Police carried the "shortened" police bayonet, or the standard size 17" bayonet.

I realize 1) has long been characterized as used by the Feldjagerkorps. But I think George Wheeler in his fine bayonet book has explained quite clearly that the grip insignia is simply a post 1933 Prussian police star. This same "Feldjager" insignia can be seen in use on Prussian police cartouche box and bandelier fitting star, as well as badges for the Prussian Feld und Forst Huters.
There used to be a fine thread in Houston's forum on this subject.

You long clamshell is a very nice piece and I thank you for the chance to see all your Eichs.

I believe the Army type sabers with the SA motto on the blade W/ Feldjager star on the langet and the Feldjager stars worn on the SA Feldjager uniform are proof that Police bayonets bearing this insignia are correctly identified as Feldjager-not just Prussian Police. I know it has been stated that there are photos of Police who were not Feldjagers wearing this insignia but I have never seen any. F&F Huters Yes, Police? No.

So the same badge could be used by the Feld & Forst Huters? Does that make them Feldjagers or vice-versa? No.

No one has said that the Feldjagers did not wear that Prussian police badge on their collar tabs or that special swords might have been created for officers with the SA motto and the Prussian police star on the langet. But the basic fact is the Prussian Feldjagerkorps was considered a Prussian Hilfspolizei. As George has pointed out numerous times, the identical insignia is sometimes found on Prussian police insignia. Here is a photo of three different Prussian police stars used on their cartouche boxes: the one on the leather box is the early eagle, the left top is the intermediate flying eagle and the top right one has the post 1933 Prussian state insignia.



Are you telling me this is a Feldjagerkorps cartouche box eagle? As George pointed out, the Assmann catalog also shows the same eagle on sleeve insignia used senior Prussian police NCOs. It is not a picture Houston, but it is period identification.

But I certainly respect your opinion.

Joe,

Unfortunately I have not found the gold colored bayonet specifically listed in any of the catalogs. Certainly there is secondary information they were used but primary proof is still elusive. Of course, the gold ones do exist so that is some proof in itself.

Houston,

There are plenty of primary sources that show these bayonets worn by the regular Prussian Police as well as Feldjäger. But because they were worn by the Feldjäger does not make them exclusively a bayonet made for them.

Here are a couple of period photos. The first one shows a Schupo instructor at Berg in 1931 clearly wearing the long Prussian Police bayonet. This was long before the Feldjäger existed. The second is a page from the WKC catalog calling this bayonet a Schutzpolizei Seitengewehr. I really don't see the bone of contention.

Actually-I don't believe there are any period photos clear enough to show the actual grip insignia with swastika in wear-and no photos that I know of showing any insignia with the swastika being worn by any policeman.Just because it is in a catalog does not mean it was worn. The proof to me is the clear use of this insignia with swastika on the uniforms of the Feldjagers and on the SA sword. We are not going to agree on this. Your proof is not good enough for me and vice versa. IMO the gold bayonets are for the small town police. Period property markings prove this. They have no Prussian police spine markings because they were independent units-according to Angolia anyway.

At this year's SOS, I picked up this Customs Police Clamshell bayonet by Eickhorn (of course).

It has no police insignia (as we expect it not to), a clamshell, a hard metal scabbard, Alcoso eagle pommel (why?) and the Eickhorn seated squirrel 35-41 TM.

The combination of the 35-41 mark with the clamshell is what made this one an immediate buy for me (like it did for the police clamshell with the 35-41 mark at the MAX..see above).

John

John,

Another beauty, really great looking with that toned stag & clamshell. Very tough to find with that '35-'41 mark too. All else looks correct so I presume Eick purchased parts from Alcoso at some point.

Here i my Police Bayonet

/Fredrik

Fredrik:

Nice... can we see closeups of the pommel, the crossguard and the maker mark?

John

I remember Fredrik posting this piece previously. From memory it's very nice, especially the unusual frog/hanging device.

Just arrived yesterday, here is a shortened (13 inches), matching numbered police bayonet by Eickhorn... with a twist.

It has the early single (yes, single) oval TM.

The TR police emblem is pinned on, but one of the three pins is broken, so that the grip emblem wobbles a fair bit on this example. But, I didn't get it for the emblem alone.

Super piece John, single oval mark is super rare. I've only heard of one other.

John i just love that !!

Guys

I must say this is an interesting thread and I'm amazed at the variety of Eickhorn maker marks that can be found with these, I have a bit of an alterior motive as I have an edged weapon with this latest mark on the blade, these early single oval marks seem to come in a mass of varieties in themselves, what year of production would you place this mark, 1933 or perhaps a little later???

Gary

Gary,

The double oval is generally considered to have been used by Eickhorn between 1933 & 1934 with the single oval being used pre 1933. Many police bayonets are cut down models which were produced in the Weimar era which is a decent explanation of why this mark would appear on John's bayonet. But that said it's somewhat of a rarity, the most frequently seen Eick mark on these bayonets is the double oval.

I'm not lucky enough to have a single oval on a police bayonet but I do have a single oval 3R fireman's bayonet Oh yeah, it's a sawback too.

John, what would the P.D.18. represent?

Hi Billy

Nice bayo

Thanks for the explanation, just so I am clear would the insignia originally been the weimar type and the present insignia added later during the period.??.
In Anthony Carters book this mark is listed as early 3rd Reich used on some bayonets and the earliest SA's.

Gary

The single oval TM was used by Eickhorn prior to and maybe even into 1933. It replaced/displaced the earlier back to back squirrel TM that we associate with the Weimar period. From 1933 until 1935, Eickhorn used several variations of their double oval squirrel TM (with or without the letters 'C.E.' and with smooth or serrated tails).

There are also differing versions of the single oval TM (with or without 'C.E.' and tail and arm differences).

I think that Billy is correct in that this would originally have been a Weimar police bayonet that was refurbished with the blade cut down and the TR police insignia added when the Nazis took over the police departments.

I only have one other single oval Eick in my collection and that is an early HJ knife. I have also seen pics of a single oval SA, but have yet to find one of my very own.

I attach the two single oval TMs that I have in my collection. The first is the HJ, the second is this police one.

As to the meaning of 'P.D. 18', I am told that it is a police school, but really know nothing about it. Maybe, Billy or someone can chime in on this for us?

John

Sorry John, I'm unsure what the marking would signify specifically. I'm afraid if anyone here knows what P.D. 18 stands for, it would be Joe since he wrote chapter 6 in Johnson's Collecting Series, Volume IV himself.

Of the list included therein, "P" marked bayonets had an affiliation with police schools in various locations however there is no specific marking of "P.D.". As with other similarly marked bayonets, one could propose that the "D" might signify Düsseldorf however this is complete supposition on my part.

That's why I asked the question. The "P." denotes a police school according to the 1932 marking directives. But the "D." normally indicating Dusseldorf when associated with the "S." or "L." marking has not been found with police schools. Does he back of the blade display one of the Prussian acceptance marks, *K for instance?

You know, I forgot about this Eickhorn thread.

I thought I would post a couple of other Police Bayonets by Eickhorn. These are KS98 style bayonets that appear to be items of issue that are very similar to the "R.F.V." bayonets issued to the Reichsverwaltung (Customs).

These bayonets are quite different from the KS98 style Extrawaffen with plated blades and hilts worn by the military. They are larger overall with 26cm (not 25cm) blades and are made of unplated (polished) steel. The larger scabbards are blued steel and the grips are checkered hard rubber without the drain hole found on RFV bayonets. These bayonets will only affix to a Kar98az carbine but not to the Kar98 with a cleaning/stacking rod. The hilts will also be found only with a T (not a T/O) slot that will only attach to a Kar98az or with a solid pommel without a slot just like the "regular" police bayonets.

These distinctive bayonets were made by several makers, including Eickhorn. They will also be found with inventory numbers as items of issue but I have never seen one with Prussian Police property markings. Here are a three that were made by Eickhorn.

George

George:

I didn't even know these existed... thank you for sharing.

Joe:

There are no spine or other markings on the P.D.18 bayonet.

John