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To the wood grips, here are a pair of late light colored ones from commercial Eickhorns(?) and they would not be serial numbered. And while late military WKC bayonets have (IMO) somewhat less well done wood grips (also not numbered), the WKC commercials use plastic. As for stampings in wood grips in general, I will have to see if I can find some images to explain what I seem to be seeing.

And for the RZM marked frogs - let me just say that I give them a lot of extra attention when I see one.

Best Regards to All, FP

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Really enjoying this "lively" thread , Andy and F.P. have always been very helpful to me in my collecting endeavours , and Richard has a great deal of knowledge to offer , I look forward to future respectful posts,
Regards
Will.

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I have a commercial W.K.C with bakerlite compound grips ,is it worth removing the grips to look at the markings ? I dont think they have ever been off though ? dilemma?
Regards
Will

will jones #234928 12/08/2010 08:45 PM
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Will,

Thank you for your earlier comment, and I think it depends to some extent on whether or not it's an early black gripped WKC commercial or a late one. Because the late ones tend to have less markings. But if there is no active rust, sight unseen, I would probably leave it alone.

Best Regards, FP

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The image here serves several purposes. It is of a German numbered Vz. 24 that was made in 1937, just before Czechoslovakia was peacefully taken over. So it probably did not see much service (if at all) then. But was relatively well used by the Germans, also having a date matched scabbard and blade.

In the pictures of SS troops with the bright finished Vz. 24 bayonets in use in combat. While the images are not that clear, they don’t appear to look like ‘factory fresh’ examples. And as the wear patterns of this one are studied - I think that observers can also get a better feel for reworked ones.

PS: Sorry for the image quality - I did not foresee this discussion when I took it. And would probably have ‘trashed’ it if my files were in good order. Best Regards, FP

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will jones #234934 12/08/2010 10:05 PM
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Will,

I am glad that you are enjoying the SS Bayonet Thread. There are so many other areas yet to cover. The SS 98/05 Models; the SS TV Bayonets; SS Polish Bayonet, Belt rigs; portapees, SS rifles with bayonets.

As you see we sometimes strongly disagree on specific issues.

Richard K

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Mr. John Jacobi,

Your pictures of the 45 dated,phospated, consecutive numbered bayonets with capture papers have been sent out. Hope you get them ASAP.


Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Will,

I am glad that you are enjoying the SS Bayonet Thread. There are so many other areas yet to cover. The SS 98/05 Models; the SS TV Bayonets; SS Polish Bayonet, Belt rigs; portapees, SS rifles with bayonets.

As you see we sometimes strongly disagree on specific issues.

Richard K

With the plus side of vigorous discussions being the learning experience. As I recall, Richard has stated earlier a time or two, there is an active "collector community" out there that he has been in contact with that has been sending him messages of support. What was done in the Hühnlein NSKK dagger discussion was the transmission of data/pictures anonymously for inclusion in the discussion. And what I would suggest is that the same could be done here for this discussion. And the collectors in that community could send to whomever they want to in the discussion, so that we could all learn. Thereby protecting the identities of those who may be reluctant to post, but have either information or examples to look at that may be of interest.

FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Will,

I am glad that you are enjoying the SS Bayonet Thread. There are so many other areas yet to cover. The SS 98/05 Models; the SS TV Bayonets; SS Polish Bayonet, Belt rigs; portapees, SS rifles with bayonets.

As you see we sometimes strongly disagree on specific issues.

Richard K

With the plus side of vigorous discussions being the learning experience. As I recall, Richard has stated earlier a time or two, there is an active "collector community" out there that he has been in contact with that has been sending him messages of support. What was done in the Hühnlein NSKK dagger discussion was the transmission of data/pictures anonymously for inclusion in the discussion. And what I would suggest is that the same could be done here for this discussion. And the collectors in that community could send to whomever they want to in the discussion, so that we could all learn. Thereby protecting the identities of those who may be reluctant to post, but have either information or examples to look at that may be of interest.

FP


FP,

I would also like to see as many collectors participate in the Forum as possible. Every question is important. No question is to basic. SS Bayonets is a very broad topic with specific segments such as LAH that gets down to answering some important questions and clearing up some very gray areas. If there is something you don't understand just ask. Someone will have an answer for you.

Linge, I did not forget about you and I will look through the VZ-24s to get you an answer.

Richard K

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Denny,

I have some more pictures ready to put up if you would sir.

Thanks,

Richard K

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Richard,

While we are waiting. With as I recall: 120 SS marked bayonets, 75 SS marked frogs, and all the other things that collectors tend to accumulate. I can certainly understand where managing such a large large group has its own problems keeping track of everything. So from a reader’s perspective I think that you can probably understand where it is not always easy to follow the discussion as to what is being discussed or pictured. For example:

I pulled the last bayonet for the day. This SS Bayonet is very interesting and rare. It was originally mated with a Steyer bnz Single Rune 43.
The bayonet is as follows:
1. WKC Blade.
2. No WAs
3. SS Accountability #742 on the Ricasso.
4. Blanko Scabbard with #742
5. Excellent SS Property Stamp.
6. Single Rune on the Crossguard
7. 742 Numbered Grips
8. Wooden Grips
9. Grip SS Property Stamped
10. Grip dated 1943.
My opinion is that this bayonet could have been assembled and issued with the 1943 Steyer BNZ Single Rune Rifle.
Note: The grips seem oversize for the tang area. Grip sticks above Pommel & crossguard.”

WKC Marked Blade, Rough grind on blade
Minimum polish on blade 85% / 90% blue on blade
Marks on tang: Large H; Large Ar; #5 on oppsite side of tang.
No WAs
SS Property Mark: Stamped Runes 2 over TK rotated.
Accountability #: 368. Looks pantagraphed engraved.
Blanko Scabbard with pantagraped engraved 368.
Grips: Wood / Camp Made Grips Marked: 1941 & Runes

The SS WKC Blanko is accountability #368. SS Property mark is Runes 2 over Death Head; Rotated. No WA. Matching scabbard. Just pulled this bayonet so as to make a grip comparrison.


But what we then saw was a 1940 dated grip plate. Is it from another WKC marked bayonet, or was it from from some other maker? Also, do you consider the Sigrunen inside of a circle marking an SS property stamp, some kind of rework stamp, or a camp identifier mark? Because with the Death's heads, Death's heads with runes, Single Sigrunes, Double Sigrunes, the SSZZA marks, and probably some types of marks we have not even seen yet it can tend to make it a little difficult to know which kind of grouping the marking of an item should be in. And any input would be greatly appreciated to try and sort this all out.

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Richard,

While we are waiting. With as I recall: 120 SS marked bayonets, 75 SS marked frogs, and all the other things that collectors tend to accumulate. I can certainly understand where managing such a large large group has its own problems keeping track of everything. So from a reader’s perspective I think that you can probably understand where it is not always easy to follow the discussion as to what is being discussed or pictured. For example:

I pulled the last bayonet for the day. This SS Bayonet is very interesting and rare. It was originally mated with a Steyer bnz Single Rune 43.
The bayonet is as follows:
1. WKC Blade.
2. No WAs
3. SS Accountability #742 on the Ricasso.
4. Blanko Scabbard with #742
5. Excellent SS Property Stamp.
6. Single Rune on the Crossguard
7. 742 Numbered Grips
8. Wooden Grips
9. Grip SS Property Stamped
10. Grip dated 1943.
My opinion is that this bayonet could have been assembled and issued with the 1943 Steyer BNZ Single Rune Rifle.
Note: The grips seem oversize for the tang area. Grip sticks above Pommel & crossguard.”

WKC Marked Blade, Rough grind on blade
Minimum polish on blade 85% / 90% blue on blade
Marks on tang: Large H; Large Ar; #5 on oppsite side of tang.
No WAs
SS Property Mark: Stamped Runes 2 over TK rotated.
Accountability #: 368. Looks pantagraphed engraved.
Blanko Scabbard with pantagraped engraved 368.
Grips: Wood / Camp Made Grips Marked: 1941 & Runes

The SS WKC Blanko is accountability #368. SS Property mark is Runes 2 over Death Head; Rotated. No WA. Matching scabbard. Just pulled this bayonet so as to make a grip comparrison.


But what we then saw was a 1940 dated grip plate. Is it from another WKC marked bayonet, or was it from from some other maker? Also, do you consider the Sigrunen inside of a circle marking an SS property stamp, some kind of rework stamp, or a camp identifier mark? Because with the Death's heads, Death's heads with runes, Single Sigrunes, Double Sigrunes, the SSZZA marks, and probably some types of marks we have not even seen yet it can tend to make it a little difficult to know which kind of grouping the marking of an item should be in. And any input would be greatly appreciated to try and sort this all out.

Best Regards, FP


FP,

Another factor that comes into play and I do not know the full
signifiance of it is the orientation of the property marks. I havent got into that yet. Just do not know.

I hope Denny can get the Death Head Lugers up along with the 45 dated SS bayonets yet today. I am heading home now. Long day with snow.

Richard K
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1st group for today

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Denny Gaither #235005 12/10/2010 02:10 AM
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Denny,

Thank you for posting the pictures. Too tired tonight to post. I shall describe evrything tomorrow morning. Enjoy the new items.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Denny,

Thank you for posting the pictures. Too tired tonight to post. I shall describe evrything tomorrow morning. Enjoy the new items.

Richard K

Richard (& Denny),

My thanks also. For some reason I had a problem with the lighting, and to a lesser extent the definition in the images. So much so, that the two numbered bayonets didn't look like they had phosphate finishes.

Best Regards to All, FP

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FORUM,

Denny has posted alot of pictures for us to look at. I would like to first address the relationship of the SS Death Head Lugers to the SS Bayonets with the SS Property Stamp of a Lazy S over a TK.

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FORUM,

The SS Death Head Luger is really the first item out there with an SS Property Stamp on it that was acknowledged by Collectors and Gun Writers. The Lazy S over the TK was first thought to be a marking for The Flame Thrower units in WW1. It was then written up to be a unit marking for the German Grave Diggers who would sometimes have to use their pistol to finish off wounded soldiers in order get them in the grave.

It has been only within the last 25/30 years that these Lazy S over Death Heads have been associated with SS Weapons such as: Lugers, Rifles & Bayonets.

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FORUM,

Also note the pictures showing the Crown/N proof marks. The legitimate SS Firearms will 90% of the time have either C/N or E/N Proof Marks on them to show that they are safe to use.

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FORUM,

The Death Head Lugers were reworked and assembled in the same Weapons Work Camps as the rifles. The Lugers for the early SS/VT & SS/TV were made from old worn out Luger Pistols from the first WW1. Most of these Death Head Lugers will be made up of numerous mismatched parts. A complete functioning Luger was assembled using whatever salvaged parts were necessary to make it function properly.

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FORUM,

I have seen Death Head Lugers that had been completely reblued. I have also seen Death Head Lugers that had a complete mismatch of finishes. All Death Head Lugers that I have seen in collections were mated up with a Holster that had either the large TK on the front flap and or the smaller TK located on the back of the holster.

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FORUM,

The SS must have had extensive Leather Work shops within their camp system. Numerous SS Marked leather items such as: Frogs, Belts, Holsters,Pouches,etc. are readily seen.

So Lugers with Death Heads and Luger Holsters with Death Heads have been acknowledged for a substantial period of time by Gun Collectors and writers. The Death Heads were acknowledged on the Lugers & Holsters but the relationship to the SS was not made until recently.

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FORUM,

The Lazy S over the TK is the usual property mark for over 80% of the Death Head Lugers. There are two othe styles of Property Marks that are also found on the SS Lugers that are also seen on SS Bayonets. I myself always like to see the C/N and or the E/N on the SS Firearms that are marked with an SS Property Stamp.

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FORUM,

We just covered the relationship of the Death Head Lugers to the SS Marked bayonet with the Lazy S over the TK. The SS Weapons System used the same Property Stamps on the Lugers, Bayonets & Rifles.

Next step we have to touc on the SS Property Marks for the rifles. You need to go back quite a few pages and take a look at the SS Property Marks used on rifles. There are quite a few different styles shown in the pictures and there are still some others that are not shown.

Again, the SS Property Marks found on the SS Rifles are also used on the SS Bayonets.

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FORUM,

Sorry for all of these short posts. But if I dont make them short the post hangs up the system when I hit submit.

Richard K

Denny Gaither #235058 12/10/2010 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Denny Gaither
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FORUM,

The second grip from the top is a VZ-24 dated 1941. The bayonet has no accountability #. The SS property Mark on the bayonet is under the blue.

The date stamps on the VZ-24 bayonets are all the same size and match the date stamps on Camp Grips of the 84/98 bayonets.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
To the wood grips, here are a pair of late light colored ones from commercial Eickhorns(?) and they would not be serial numbered. And while late military WKC bayonets have (IMO) somewhat less well done wood grips (also not numbered), the WKC commercials use plastic. As for stampings in wood grips in general, I will have to see if I can find some images to explain what I seem to be seeing.

And for the RZM marked frogs - let me just say that I give them a lot of extra attention when I see one.

Best Regards to All, FP


FP,

In regards to the RZM marked frog, I am not sure that I understand your answer. Is there such an original SS RZM marked Frog??

Richard Kuchta

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Denny,

Have sent you the last pictures for the week to post for us. There is a Double Stamp, Single Rune dated 1943 and a Guard Helmet from the Steyer Works where they used slave to fabricate & assemble rifles. My opinion is that they also assembled the SS bayonets to go with the SS Rifles.


Richard Kuchta

Denny Gaither #235069 12/10/2010 09:47 PM
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Forum,

The Capture Papers with the SS 45 Bayonets is a photocopy of the original. Original is framed and hanging on the wall.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Forum,

The Capture Papers with the SS 45 Bayonets is a photocopy of the original. Original is framed and hanging on the wall.

Richard K


Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

In regards to the RZM marked frog, I am not sure that I understand your answer. Is there such an original SS RZM marked Frog??

Richard Kuchta


Richard,

I’m sorry that this will be so brief, but I’ve got some things to get done before this evening. There are various and sundry period leather items with SS and RZM markings. But there are also a lot of fake/altered frogs. And a quick question: I saw the copy of the document you posted, but what connected it to the KZ? Was it a service record or something else?

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Forum,

The Capture Papers with the SS 45 Bayonets is a photocopy of the original. Original is framed and hanging on the wall.

Richard K


Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

In regards to the RZM marked frog, I am not sure that I understand your answer. Is there such an original SS RZM marked Frog??

Richard Kuchta


Richard,

I’m sorry that this will be so brief, but I’ve got some things to get done before this evening. There are various and sundry period leather items with SS and RZM markings. But there are also a lot of fake/altered frogs. And a quick question: I saw the copy of the document you posted, but what connected it to the KZ? Was it a service record or something else?

Best Regards,
FP

Walther said that he had taken the rifle and bayonets from an SS Weapons Depot & factory located in the Wobbelin Concentration Camp. There were no guards or soldiers when his batallion arrived there.

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Richard, I don't mean to throw a monkey into this, but the Lazy S TK is far from accepted by Luger collectors as III Reich period. To most of them, as discussed on the Luger.gunboard.com, the marking could be Imperial, Freikorps, or perhaps SS. This was in discussion in the first Luger books in the 1960s.

Have you done any research on the "SS Weapons System" that you mention above. Have you located any arsenals, the control center of procurement, duplication of effort?

I find it interesting with all the multiple markings found on these weapons you show, the .22 trainers purchased by the SS and shipped to numerous units of the Allegemeine SS were marked simply with the RFSS stamp in the stock.


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Richard,

I spent most of one summer, and one other visit living about 50 km southwest from the camp. So I have some idea of what the general area looks like and was curious about what kind of unit Walther might have been in. What I found was this from a unit history: “On May 2, 1945 ........., the 82nd American Airborne Division liberated ......... Wobbelin (which) had been created only 10 weeks earlier .......... to serve as a work camp ......... The camp had no infrastructure and no sanitation or food facilities. It consisted merely of barracks with open spaces and no doors.” It then goes on to describe over a thousand dead inmates and a mass burial. From another source: “The SS had established Wöbbelin to house concentration camp prisoners whom the SS had evacuated from other camps to prevent their liberation by the Allies. At its height, Wöbbelin held some 5,000 inmates, most of whom were suffering from starvation and disease. The camp was freed on May 2, 1945.” From still another source: "On 12 February 1945 a group of inmates were transported to build a larger camp, now called KZ Wöbbelin. The SS-physician Alfred Trzebinski stated during his trial, that 648 people were held at Wöbbelin camp until the end of March 1945. In mid-April several transports from subcamps of Neuengamme and Ravensbrück concentration camp with more than 4,000 inmates arrived. On May 2, 1945, the 8th Infantry Division and the 82nd Airborne Division encountered Wöbbelin. Living conditions in the camp when the U.S. 8th Infantry and the 82nd Airborne arrived were deplorable. There was little food or water and some prisoners had resorted to cannibalism. When the units arrived, they found about 1,000 inmates dead in the camp. In the aftermath, the U.S. Army ordered the townspeople in Ludwigslust to visit the camp and bury the dead.”

And generally speaking. It was not U.S. Army policy to leave weapons (especially guns) behind unguarded so that any potentially hostile forces in the area could easily arm themselves. Maybe you have some information I don’t that could help explain what I found. I'm sorry, but it doesn’t look or sound like it was a functioning SS Weapons Depot & factory from the historical record I've looked at so far.

Attached: John posted a link to a picture of the front gate. Here is the camp with GI’s in it walking around, and no doors visible in the photo.

Best Regards, FP

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Walther was in the 552 Engineers Heavy Pontoon Boat Batallion.

Richard K

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Walther's batallion was at the camp in April and early May of 1945.

Richard K

JoeW #235126 12/11/2010 11:27 PM
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Joe,

The number of rifles with the same Lazy S Death Head and C/N proof that were brought back from WW11 says very louldly that these were SS Camp Weapons. The SS Collecting community recognises the Death Head lugers as SS WW11 Weapons. Joe, there are lugers out there that are fairly new with dates in the 30s and 40s displaying the Lazy S over the Death Head along with SS Marked Holsters. There are Death Head Lugers on capture papers that I have seen in collections. You have not thrown a wrench into the works but rather afforded an opportunity to clear up soome misconceptions on the Death Head Luger. I made the point prior about about what some writers had written aboout te Death Head Lugers. At that period of time, little was known about the SS Property Stamps.

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FP,

In regards to the SS Weapons Depot at Wobbelin, I can only repeat what a soldier stated when he was there. Would you post the documentation on the Camp that you have. I do not have anything in depth as you must have. Your pictures are great and I have never seen any of the KL but they also look as you have stated as barracks. Were there work shops inside of the camp or out? Slave Labor was sometimes transported.
You stated that weapons are not left for other armies and or soldiers to retrieve. I can relate to one other Work Camp, Dachau KL where the storehouses were filled with rifles and bayonets as well as other items. I got many items from soldiers who were stationed at Dachau. We will get into that when we talk about the SS 98/05 bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

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