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FP,

I made a mistake and picked up the wrong frog. Getting tired. Put powder on this one also and the circle to the extreme left has an RZM in it. The circle to the extreme right has runes in it. The numbers look like 100/41.

Sorry,

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I am looking at the SS VZ-24 Bayonet ;Accountability #174; dated 1939 with Phospate finish on the blade. Internal tang looks bright but the external edges are blued?
Czech marking on blade ricasso CSZ over T


Richard Kuchta


Richard,

The "bluing" at the edges might just be age - but without seeing it that is just a guess. I am also going to guess that if you did not see it on the blade, the tang/spine will (or should) be marked with a date and some other things. And if this is the bayonet with a cut down muzzle ring. Aside from that, what if anything sets it apart from and makes it an SS Vz. 24 as compared with your other 1939 dated bayonets. ie: are the markings the same, or are they different in any way?

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I made a mistake and picked up the wrong frog. Getting tired. Put powder on this one also and the circle to the extreme left has an RZM in it. The circle to the extreme right has runes in it. The numbers look like 100/41.

Sorry,

Richard K


Richard,

When I tried to enhance the image it still looks like a skull to me. Can you change the lighting?

Best Regards, FP

Kuchta_frog_12_06_02_ copy.jpg (48.28 KB, 157 downloads)
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Richard

Here is a photo of some of the white police parade dress band equipment. Most is marked either Po or with an ink police stamp.
Your photo of the LSAH band equipment you have was at some distance. Are the individual pieces marked in any way, as to make or date? You wrote that you had never seen an LSAH marked piece of white leather I believe? That is certainly understandable, given the size of the unit. Band equipment would be even more rare. If the equipment is not Po marked, I would consider it LSAH. Here is some more police equipment. Do you have a white LSAH parade drum hanger like my police one?

IMG_4101.jpg (55.64 KB, 164 downloads)
IMG_4102.jpg (72.12 KB, 165 downloads)
IMG_4322.jpg (51.85 KB, 165 downloads)
IMG_4325.jpg (60.8 KB, 163 downloads)
IMG_4327.jpg (46.68 KB, 162 downloads)

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JoeW #234800 12/07/2010 08:27 AM
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To FP i wrote about the prewar production, firstly i dont know what You have there for piece, is for germans or its a romanian export? The pieces of late 1939 production with slovak acceptance have the browned blade as should be have.

AndyB #234801 12/07/2010 08:34 AM
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Thanks to Richard for adding the great WBD frog really nice piece.The other VA piece looks same nice and should be probably correct, the other mentioned by FP with 100/41 have the die stamp visible so no probably a correct stamp, the other point that was not mentioned here from no one is the frog has a KM Eagle M proof? how goes the piece to a SS mark?
You could see the difference between the hard visible VA or KM eagle as proper period marked and the new 100/41 stamped digits with visible borders of the die.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/07/2010 08:43 AM.
AndyB #234803 12/07/2010 08:42 AM
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"2. Height of numbers: WKC 1941 date: Height of numbers 0.198
VZ-24 1939 date: Height of numbers o.198
"
it means only Your bouth piece were made by one source, be renumbering to metric system the height of numbers are 5,1mm which is too big for all german digits, the main digits were 3mm high.You could compare it with normal 98k production.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/07/2010 09:26 AM.
AndyB #234804 12/07/2010 08:47 AM
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"Phospate finish on the blade. Internal tang looks bright but the external edges are blued? Czech marking on blade ricasso CSZ over T"
the finish is in reality origin czechoslovak but matted, same as the blueing done by germans were realised in a solution, so it must be dissasembled and totally given there. Your piece is hand blued postwar then as no blueing under grips.


Last edited by AndyB; 12/07/2010 08:51 AM.
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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I am looking at the SS VZ-24 Bayonet ;Accountability #174; dated 1939 with Phospate finish on the blade. Internal tang looks bright but the external edges are blued?
Czech marking on blade ricasso CSZ over T


Richard Kuchta


Richard,

The "bluing" at the edges might just be age - but without seeing it that is just a guess. I am also going to guess that if you did not see it on the blade, the tang/spine will (or should) be marked with a date and some other things. And if this is the bayonet with a cut down muzzle ring. Aside from that, what if anything sets it apart from and makes it an SS Vz. 24 as compared with your other 1939 dated bayonets. ie: are the markings the same, or are they different in any way?

Best Regards, FP



FP,

I brought the bayonet to work to get a few pictures. The following are answers to your question:

1. SS Property marked with Runes over Death Head. Not the most common property mark found on a VZ-24.

2. Accountability # on the ricasso and below the lip of the scabbard.

3. No markings at all on the tang.

4. Looking at the Tang/Pommel Area it could be possibly patinaed out.

5. Grips are accountability numbered and dated.

Richard K

AndyB #234818 12/07/2010 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"2. Height of numbers: WKC 1941 date: Height of numbers 0.198
VZ-24 1939 date: Height of numbers o.198
"
it means only Your bouth piece were made by one source, be renumbering to metric system the height of numbers are 5,1mm which is too big for all german digits, the main digits were 3mm high.You could compare it with normal 98k production.


Andy,

We are looking at SS reworked VZ-24 bayonets. The font type & size is fairly consistent on the SS marked grips on all of the different models. You can not compare apples with oranges. I am not familiar with the specifications of the fonts on the army combat bayonets. The SS did not go by the army standards. The SS accepted and used rejected army bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234819 12/07/2010 05:28 PM
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Andy,

The piece is an Waffenamt Eagle/607 marked Vz. 24. But you bring up a good point about the export models, with for example the wartime Romanian Vz. 24 that is blued over sandblasting. And I have some earlier CZ bayonets made for Czechoslovakia that I can look at later to see if I can see some differences.

I’m not claiming to be an expert, but I do know a little about metal finishes and how they are used to control corrosion (rust). And while I am more familiar with U.S. practices, I’ve done some research on period German methods of corrosion control because of my collecting interests. So I’m wondering first if it may be something like a translation problem? (As an example here, one of the things that some English language writers have had problem with over the years is the German use of “browning”, and some other terminology.)

With my second thought being that there were many ways to finish metal. And a sandblasted finish could be coated with oil (just like bluing is oiled) to help it fight rust. But over a bare metal, once the oil or grease is gone it can rust. And what is or was usually done was something to clean or chemically neutralize the surface before the oil/grease was applied. Such as bluing or some kind of phosphate. And for period U.S. arms, over time many have had oil/grease induced color changes in the protective phosphate layer over steel. With a brown or brownish tint not being uncommon.

And if you could see me now I am hanging my head in shame. I missed it. And you are absolutely right, that is a KM marking and they are scarce. So some faker messed up a legitimate hard to find period artifact to make it an “SS” frog???

Best Regards, FP

Kuchta frog KM marking.jpg (59.76 KB, 173 downloads)
JoeW #234820 12/07/2010 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: JWotka
Richard

Here is a photo of some of the white police parade dress band equipment. Most is marked either Po or with an ink police stamp.
Your photo of the LSAH band equipment you have was at some distance. Are the individual pieces marked in any way, as to make or date? You wrote that you had never seen an LSAH marked piece of white leather I believe? That is certainly understandable, given the size of the unit. Band equipment would be even more rare. If the equipment is not Po marked, I would consider it LSAH. Here is some more police equipment. Do you have a white LSAH parade drum hanger like my police one?


Joe,

What a wonderful and extremely rare collection of Police Band White. I do not have the White LSAH Parade Drum Hanger. You would have to ransom your first born in order to get one. Joe who is the manufacturer of the White? Is It Kurt S.?

Richard K

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Firstly the font is not consistent as You send pictures about minimum 3 font of digits types, the die used by germans, same as by czechoslovak were not larger as 4mm, similar high digits about 5mm was not observed on any real pieces to this day.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Andy,

The piece is an Waffenamt Eagle/607 marked Vz. 24. But you bring up a good point about the export models, with for example wartime Romanian Vz. 24 that is blued over sandblasting. And I have some earlier CZ bayonets for Czechoslovakia that I can look at later to see if I can see some differences.

I’m not claiming to be an expert, but I do know a little about metal finishes and how they are used to control corrosion (rust). And while I am more familiar with U.S. practices, I’ve done some research on period German methods of corrosion control because of my collecting interests. So I’m wondering first if it may be something like a translation problem? (As an example here, one of the things that some English language writers have had problem with over the years is the German use of “browning”, and some other terminology.)

With my second thought being that there were many ways to finish metal. And a sandblasted finish could be coated with oil (just like bluing is oiled) to help it fight rust. But over a bare metal, once the oil or grease is gone it can rust. And what is or was usually done was something to clean or chemically neutralize the surface before the oil/grease was applied. Such as bluing or some kind of phosphate. And for period U.S. arms, over time many have had a oil/grease induced color changes in the protective phosphate layer over steel. With a brown or brownish tint not being uncommon.

And if you could see me know I am hanging my head in shame. I missed it. And you are absolutely right, that is a KM marking and they are scarce. So some faker messed up a legitimate hard to find period artifact to make it an “SS” frog???

Best Regards, FP


FP,

The camera brings out things that you can not see by eye. I brought the other frog to work today with the powder on it. I hope to get some new pictures. Please comment on the particular stamping on the frog. How close is it to the original?

Richard K

AndyB #234824 12/07/2010 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
Firstly the font is not consistent as You send pictures about minimum 3 font of digits types, the die used by germans, same as by czechoslovak were not larger as 4mm, similar high digits about 5mm was not observed on any real pieces to this day.


We are talking about the SS and the rework being done in work camps. You can not compare SS rework number stamping to that done by Czech & or German. You have to compare SS Number stamping to SS Number stamping. The SS perhaps wanted their documentation to stand out from pre existing numbering and geometry.

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To Fred P. no problem with no seeing the other eagle stamp as You were focused on the RZM stamp, You are experts on this, so i only waited who will answer it, certainly the Eagle M is nice and is bad that was damaged with a aditional SS stamp, that is max. 10 years old, through the die borders visible on frog.
To browning, certainly is hard word to word translate, as in original manual is used the czech or slovak word "hnedeni" which means a finish with brown color result, the solution was so mixed that the endproduct was not of blue color but more of brown color, they didnt different the various colours of finish, but the scabbard is clearly blued finish. So the blades on were used only other solution that dont realised the typical blue finish as seen on german items, but looks like matted only. The scabbard were blued in similar chemicals like german do.
To Your E/607 could be not fully finished as germans ordered a blued finish, so maybe the chemicals were not good already or the finish was not fullended. before the blueing was applied acid solvent to remove and clean the blade before blueing, so it could be remains of this? Is only speculates, but i dont saw other example of 607 without finish or with phosphate finish.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP

And if you could see me know I am hanging my head in shame. I missed it. And you are absolutely right, that is a KM marking and they are scarce. So some faker messed up a legitimate hard to find period artifact to make it an “SS” frog???


The camera brings out things that you can not see by eye. I brought the other frog to work today with the powder on it. I hope to get some new pictures. Please comment on the particular stamping on the frog. How close is it to the original?

Richard K

Richard,

If we are talking about the Kriegsmarine marking, it's spot on to some I have. And later I can pull one out and probably give you the name of the maker, which now seems to be eradicated by the new stamping.

Best Regards, FP

AndyB #234827 12/07/2010 06:05 PM
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to Richard we know about army reworks, that are marked on visible parts, to sample SuWW /1937 on a reworked SG98/05, the grips are normally serialed but no dated, by controling of the rework must be the stamp visible, and have no reason to be inside of grip, as You couldnt see which is reworked or no. The all proof is marked with one stamp and the date 1937 is so small that is visible only with large glass. Stamp dies 1.5mm max to 2mm.
You should ask You why SS made so no logical thing as date a inside of grips?, with various digits and with same SS rune stamp, same thing was found on a WKC late war and with 1941 grips but with 25 variation of engraved DH? That have not same design or same size.
I believe the pieces came from one fakers workshop.You should compare of all the dated Vz.24 pieces where they came from? You certainly have a good pieces, but these SS Vz.24 are not real by my opinion.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/07/2010 06:08 PM.
AndyB #234831 12/07/2010 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
to Richard we know about army reworks, that are marked on visible parts, to sample SuWW /1937 on a reworked SG98/05, the grips are normally serialed but no dated, by controling of the rework must be the stamp visible, and have no reason to be inside of grip, as You couldnt see which is reworked or no. The all proof is marked with one stamp and the date 1937 is so small that is visible only with large glass. Stamp dies 1.5mm max to 2mm.
You should ask You why SS made so no logical thing as date a inside of grips?, with various digits and with same SS rune stamp, same thing was found on a WKC late war and with 1941 grips but with 25 variation of engraved DH? That have not same design or same size.
I believe the pieces came from one fakers workshop.You should compare of all the dated Vz.24 pieces where they came from? You certainly have a good pieces, but these SS Vz.24 are not real by my opinion.


Andy,

Here you go again shooting from the hip. You make statements without documentation and or expertise. I asked you to post your SS Bayonets and I can assume by now that you do not have any. You said that you have SS Bayonets from Policeia Division because you saw pictures of them in a book and they look like what you have. I do not think so. You are making statements consistently that everything is a fake. Well my friend if you want to see some real fake SS bayonets go into your own collection and look at your Policeia.

You try to make comparissons of SS bayonets to Army bayonets. You are so postwar fake oriented that perhaps you had some involvement in this. Czech bayonets were never high on the list for fakers they were always considered junk. The items that I have shown you, you have never seen before. You are extremely talented, making value judgements with no knowledge of SS bayonets. Oh I forgot, you are Andy from Czechlosvakia!

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

Andy,

Here you go again shooting from the hip. You make statements without documentation and or expertise. I asked you to post your SS Bayonets and I can assume by now that you do not have any. You said that you have SS Bayonets from Policeia Division because you saw pictures of them in a book and they look like what you have. I do not think so. You are making statements consistently that everything is a fake. Well my friend if you want to see some real fake SS bayonets go into your own collection and look at your Policeia.

You try to make comparissons of SS bayonets to Army bayonets. You are so postwar fake oriented that perhaps you had some involvement in this. Czech bayonets were never high on the list for fakers they were always considered junk. The items that I have shown you, you have never seen before. You are extremely talented, making value judgements with no knowledge of SS bayonets. Oh I forgot, you are Andy from Czechlosvakia!

Richard,

First and most importantly, if you disagree with the man that is not a problem. But as Dave has already warned, we should all try to be respectful of one another.

FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

Andy,

Here you go again shooting from the hip. You make statements without documentation and or expertise. I asked you to post your SS Bayonets and I can assume by now that you do not have any. You said that you have SS Bayonets from Policeia Division because you saw pictures of them in a book and they look like what you have. I do not think so. You are making statements consistently that everything is a fake. Well my friend if you want to see some real fake SS bayonets go into your own collection and look at your Policeia.

You try to make comparissons of SS bayonets to Army bayonets. You are so postwar fake oriented that perhaps you had some involvement in this. Czech bayonets were never high on the list for fakers they were always considered junk. The items that I have shown you, you have never seen before. You are extremely talented, making value judgements with no knowledge of SS bayonets. Oh I forgot, you are Andy from Czechlosvakia!

Richard,

First and most importantly, if you disagree with the man that is not a problem. But as Dave has already warned, we should all try to be respectful of one another.

FP


FP,

Respect goes both ways. You can not demand respect, you earn it. I full respect opinions and criticism that are backed up by fact & or documentation. I do not know everything and am willing to learn. I have shared information readily and openly so that all can learn & enjoy. Understand one thing, the amount of activity on this thread is good but I am getting alot of activity off line because collectors are afraid of posting items here and then be criticised & stoned. Everyone is trying to learn. The forum was established to have an interchange of ideas and provide a learning process. Some people come to the forum with their own agenda.

Richard K

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Denny,

I have some more pictures comming thru. Would you please post them.

Thanks,

Richard K

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Thanks FP for nice words,but i hope that i could bring some lights into this discussion, firstly i already stated here that You have there some nice items, i waited a 55 thread pages that i could say You have a nice WBD frog, or nice VA frog, sorry when You were so experts on frogs You already knows that on the RZM marked frog is KM eagle property M stamp. Same as You would now the difference between cvl and cul, and other SG84/98 specialitys. We in BCN are focused on these bayonets and know alot of them,same as we made some estimation of overall production, and members like Fred M., John the founder, FP , Joe and others solved some important question about many variation of these bayonets. When You were so expert on frogs You already knows how dies were stamped in leather and what for stamp is old and what is new.
Sorry same thing is the czechoslovak Vz24 bayonet area,You didnt understand about production markings that should be there, about units marking and how they were reworked and You speak from Yours 15 bayonets as they all are SS correct pieces. I already inspected a huge amount of these, because here in Slovakia are the Vz.24 most frequeantable and my friends have collections of hundrets of pieces, no one was still reported here. When You would bring a detailed pictures of each and measure one pieces we could bring it further but only by speaking about where are the evidences of SS reworking is no possible.
I already mentioned that SS dont need property stamped their bayonets, mainly the WSS, the blanko WKC is already long time confirmed piece by them, same as reworked Vz.24 could be used by them but must be not so teribble damaged by fakers with the DH like many of Your collection. When You believe they are correct, so no problem. I will offer only my opinion as this is a free forum. When You are interested we could made a confrontation on the 4TK piece that You sent last month, where are the major errors of the fakers.I could it made too confidential, as it would be probably better, but i believe You will not hear about this or?
I have mentioned about Police that i have a ACS and P.Weyersberg, i dont known about Police divisions, but when Police was under SS since 1938 or earlier so already these both are too SS police bayonets.
I am one that will fight again fakers because they ruin some of great bayonets and make problematic the collecting area. I could already through some of the articles here in Czechia and Slovakia help beginners in bayonet collecting stop of buying of the etched bayonets with SS motivs on SG84/98,that were here declared as real . The fakers dont like me extra,that is true.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Joe,
What a wonderful and extremely rare collection of Police Band White. I do not have the White LSAH Parade Drum Hanger. You would have to ransom your first born in order to get one. Joe who is the manufacturer of the White? Is It Kurt S.?
Richard K [/color]


Richard

If the drum hanger is marked I cannot make it out with the creases and cracks in the white finish. The major producer was Fischer. I am not aware of a Kurt S. The major producer of police gear was Fischer, Sindel and Larsen. There were some others but not as frequently encountered. The last LSAH drum hanger I saw was Zyla I think. I am trying to understand what the larger square leather piece with a strap and buckle. Some kind of protective piece for another drum?


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and Walther PP #975557
AndyB #234855 12/07/2010 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
Thanks FP for nice words,but i hope that i could bring some lights into this discussion, firstly i already stated here that You have there some nice items, i waited a 55 thread pages that i could say You have a nice WBD frog, or nice VA frog, sorry when You were so experts on frogs You already knows that on the RZM marked frog is KM eagle property M stamp.
I have owned the RZM FROG for probably about 3 months and as I stated earlier that I did not even enter these frogs into my collection because they have not been researched and I have no knowledge of them. This frog was on a listing of items from a major militaria dealer. How could you say that I already know there is a KM marking on the frog?

Same as You would now the difference between cvl and cul, and other SG84/98 specialitys. We in BCN are focused on these bayonets and know alot of them,same as we made some estimation of overall production, and members like Fred M., John the founder, FP , Joe and others solved some important question about many variation of these bayonets. When You were so expert on frogs You already knows how dies were stamped in leather and what for stamp is old and what is new.
Sorry same thing is the czechoslovak Vz24 bayonet area,You didnt understand about production markings that should be there, about units marking and how they were reworked and You speak from Yours 15 bayonets as they all are SS correct pieces. I already inspected a huge amount of these, because here in Slovakia are the Vz.24 most frequeantable and my friends have collections of hundrets of pieces, no one was still reported here. When You would bring a detailed pictures of each and measure one pieces we could bring it further but only by speaking about where are the evidences of SS reworking is no possible.
I already mentioned that SS dont need property stamped their bayonets, mainly the WSS, the blanko WKC is already long time confirmed piece by them, same as reworked Vz.24 could be used by them but must be not so teribble damaged by fakers with the DH like many of Your collection. When You believe they are correct, so no problem. I will offer only my opinion as this is a free forum. When You are interested we could made a confrontation on the 4TK piece that You sent last month, where are the major errors of the fakers.I could it made too confidential, as it would be probably better, but i believe You will not hear about this or?
I have mentioned about Police that i have a ACS and P.Weyersberg, i dont known about Police divisions, but when Police was under SS since 1938 or earlier so already these both are too SS police bayonets.
I am one that will fight again fakers because they ruin some of great bayonets and make problematic the collecting area. I could already through some of the articles here in Czechia and Slovakia help beginners in bayonet collecting stop of buying of the etched bayonets with SS motivs on SG84/98,that were here declared as real . The fakers dont like me extra,that is true.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: AndyB
Thanks FP for nice words,but i hope that i could bring some lights into this discussion, firstly i already stated here that You have there some nice items, i waited a 55 thread pages that i could say You have a nice WBD frog, or nice VA frog, sorry when You were so experts on frogs You already knows that on the RZM marked frog is KM eagle property M stamp.
I have owned the RZM FROG for probably about 3 months and as I stated earlier that I did not even enter these frogs into my collection because they have not been researched and I have no knowledge of them. This frog was on a listing of items from a major militaria dealer. How could you say that I already know there is a KM marking on the frog?

Same as You would now the difference between cvl and cul, and other SG84/98 specialitys. We in BCN are focused on these bayonets and know alot of them,same as we made some estimation of overall production, and members like Fred M., John the founder, FP , Joe and others solved some important question about many variation of these bayonets. When You were so expert on frogs You already knows how dies were stamped in leather and what for stamp is old and what is new.
Sorry same thing is the czechoslovak Vz24 bayonet area,You didnt understand about production markings that should be there, about units marking and how they were reworked and You speak from Yours 15 bayonets as they all are SS correct pieces.

You are correct that I do not know about all of the Czech unit markings etc. But I do know about SS Marked bayonets. I have seen many collections and handled many bayonets. In addition I was a collector of SS rifles & sniper rifles. Knowing rifles is a prerequisite to collecting bayonets because the same markings are used. In addition the Czech unit markings on the SS Bayonets meant nothing. The SS reworked the VZ-24 Bayonets into what thy needed to support their weapons requirements.

I already inspected a huge amount of these, because here in Slovakia are the Vz.24 most frequeantable and my friends have collections of hundrets of pieces, no one was still reported here. When You would bring a detailed pictures of each and measure one pieces we could bring it further but only by speaking about where are the evidences of SS reworking is no possible.
I already mentioned that SS dont need property stamped their bayonets, mainly the WSS, the blanko WKC is already long time confirmed piece by them, same as reworked Vz.24 could be used by them but must be not so teribble damaged by fakers with the DH like many of Your collection. When You believe they are correct, so no problem. I will offer only my opinion as this is a free forum. When You are interested we could made a confrontation on the 4TK piece that You sent last month, where are the major errors of the fakers.I could it made too confidential, as it would be probably better, but i believe You will not hear about this or?
I have mentioned about Police that i have a ACS and P.Weyersberg, i dont known about Police divisions, but when Police was under SS since 1938 or earlier so already these both are too SS police bayonets.
I am one that will fight again fakers because they ruin some of great bayonets and make problematic the collecting area. I could already through some of the articles here in Czechia and Slovakia help beginners in bayonet collecting stop of buying of the etched bayonets with SS motivs on SG84/98,that were here declared as real . The fakers dont like me extra,that is true.

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^

Kuchta 12-07_01.jpg (54.14 KB, 149 downloads)
Last edited by Denny Gaither; 12/08/2010 03:23 AM.

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #234873 12/08/2010 03:24 AM
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TOP GRIP: SS 84/98; WKC; BLANKO

BOTTOM GRIP: SS VZ-24 BAYONET

Kuchta 12-07_02.jpg (46.76 KB, 147 downloads)

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #234874 12/08/2010 03:27 AM
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SS VZ-24 PARKARIZED (sic)

Kuchta 12-07_03.jpg (14.01 KB, 146 downloads)

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #234883 12/08/2010 08:58 AM
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Richard,

First, I want to thank you for presenting these items for the forum members to look at and study. With the following being my impressions of what has been brought forward for discussion. And whether or not you happen to agree or not with any of my opinions. I want you to know that I am putting forth my best honest effort to be “straight up” with you, based on my own personal past experiences in this collecting field. And from what I have gathered from other serious minded collectors.

The German Navy - “RZM” marked frog has multiple problems: 1) the Navy marking 2) the individual hand stamps 3) the overlapping zeros, and another issue that I don’t particularly want to disclose. So I have an exceptionally low confidence level that it’s real.

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With the image of the stripped down bayonet the only thing I can see in the image is a Vz. 24 bayonet body that looks just like some of the many, many, thousands that were imported. But there is nothing to match it up to, unless what you trying to show is what a Vz. 24 conversion looks like with the muzzle ring removed.

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If what you are showing is that it was the same stamp that made the sigrunes inside a circle as seen on the Vz. 24, I’m in agreement. It looks to be the same stamp from what I am seeing in the image. As for top grip pictured that is labeled as a WKC blanko - that presented a little bit of a problem. As the only description I was able to find is as follows:

“Forum,
I pulled the last bayonet for the day. This SS Bayonet is very interesting and rare. It was originally mated with a Steyer bnz Single Rune 43.
The bayonet is as follows:
1. WKC Blade.
2. No WAs
3. SS Accountability #742 on the Ricasso.
4. Blanko Scabbard with #742
5. Excellent SS Property Stamp.
6. Single Rune on the Crossguard
7. 742 Numbered Grips
8. Wooden Grips
9. Grip SS Property Stamped
10. Grip dated 1943.
My opinion is that this bayonet could have been assembled and issued with the 1943 Steyer BNZ Single Rune Rifle.
Note: The grips seem oversize for the tang area. Grip sticks above Pommel & crossguard.”


But with this grip I see a 1940 date and no numbers. So what bayonet did it come from? Because it can't be the 1943 that was described at some length.

Kuchta_12-07_02 SS 98K WKC blanko.jpg (72.41 KB, 180 downloads)
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Which brings me to this last one:

"Andy,
I have several SS VZ-24 Bayonets that retain the muzzle rings and have SS Property marks. I just took the grips off of one SS VZ-24 bayonets with a muzzle ring and the grips are marked as follows:
1. Accountability #57 matches bayonet.
2. SS Property Stamp.
3. 1939 date stamp."


I don’t know if this is supposed to be one of the “camp made” bayonet grips that you mentioned or not. But it's clear to me that the stampings were made after the fact. On the surface of a grip plate that was next to a rusted/grease (whatever) inner tang surface.

Best Regards, FP

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Thanks Richard for posting of the pictures,as i would preffer the discussion goes on, i have nothing personally against You, that should be clearly declared, so no need any strong words as lately.
To Your Vz.24 piece is certainly very important to know how are the czechoslovak markings, same as how it were reworked, because all were done in some orders, differences are between the each realisation, but the ground basis is same. You forgot one thing these are czechoslovak bayonets and their started life as so, the germans only used them and some reworked thats all, it remains still a czechoslovak Vz.24 bayonet.Other point is the german order of SG24(T) that was made already in work with upgrades that ordered germans.
So to Your Vz.24 bayonet, the blade is not parkerised its a prewar normal czechoslovak finish. as You could see the tang area same as the blade is no blued and the handle is i would tip to a postwar blueing with hand.
To grips that You presented, for me these both are origin grips, they are not camp made or reworked, the Vz.24 grip is a late one, the all mentioned bayonets Vz.24 have this 6mm high circle rune stamp, the date is made from same height or 5mm die with older font. As correctly mentioned FP the area was greased and the discoloration was realised for long year pressing of wood to tang, the stamps were applied much more later as in war.
TO WKC i believe FP mixed two of Yours WKC, i believe the one mentioned earlier is the with the wood grips.These wood grips is origin and i believe from a late war army piece as there is no assembly number and no WaA.The date is too high so as the circle stamp,and new font, that was not used in war period.
WKC Marked Blade, Rough grind on blade
Minimum polish on blade 85% / 90% blue on blade
Marks on tang: Large H; Large Ar; #5 on oppsite side of tang.
No WAs
SS Property Mark: Stamped Runes 2 over TK rotated.
Accountability #: 368. Looks pantagraphed engraved.
Blanko Scabbard with pantagraped engraved 368.
Grips: Wood / Camp Made Grips Marked: 1941 & Runes
so here are the report error as there is 1940, but this grip have no serialing, so we dont know is from the piece or not.
I have a rule, when from a source came a one bad marking or fake stamping, all the items of same source are problematic.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/08/2010 11:13 AM.
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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Richard,

First, I want to thank you for presenting these items for the forum members to look at and study. With the following being my impressions of what has been brought forward for discussion. And whether or not you happen to agree or not with any of my opinions. I want you to know that I am putting forth my best honest effort to be “straight up” with you, based on my own personal past experiences in this collecting field. And from what I have gathered from other serious minded collectors.

The German Navy - “RZM” marked frog has multiple problems: 1) the Navy marking 2) the individual hand stamps 3) the overlapping zeros, and another issue that I don’t particularly want to disclose. So I have an exceptionally low confidence level that it’s real.


FP,

Thank you for the evaluation of the frog. As I stated previously that I was not knowledgeable of the VA Style Frog and had never got a SS Bayonet Bayonet in one. I never saw the Navy markings on the frog. Good job guys. I hope I can get my money back. the tag is still on that frog. Technical question. Is that RZM stamping a complete bogus or is that found on a VA style of stamped Frog? I have to agree that a Navy Marked Frog would not be restamped for the SS at this point in time.

Good Work,

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
With the image of the stripped down bayonet the only thing I can see in the image is a Vz. 24 bayonet body that looks just like some of the many, many, thousands that were imported. But there is nothing to match it up to, unless what you trying to show is what a Vz. 24 conversion looks like with the muzzle ring removed.


FP,

The stripped VZ-24 bayonet is posted to discuss what I believe to be a phosphate finish on the blade. The tang area is shiny in some places as if hinting of some type of plating. Note the crossguard and pommel are dark in color. You suggested that it could be patina?
This particular SS bayonet is dated 1939 in the grips. The muzzle ring has been removed and yet the bayonet was not blued? Any answers as to why the bayonet was not blued. SS Property mark on the crossguard

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
If what you are showing is that it was the same stamp that made the sigrunes inside a circle as seen on the Vz. 24, I’m in agreement. It looks to be the same stamp from what I am seeing in the image. As for top grip pictured that is labeled as a WKC blanko - that presented a little bit of a problem. As the only description I was able to find is as follows:

“Forum,
I pulled the last bayonet for the day. This SS Bayonet is very interesting and rare. It was originally mated with a Steyer bnz Single Rune 43.
The bayonet is as follows:
1. WKC Blade.
2. No WAs
3. SS Accountability #742 on the Ricasso.
4. Blanko Scabbard with #742
5. Excellent SS Property Stamp.
6. Single Rune on the Crossguard
7. 742 Numbered Grips
8. Wooden Grips
9. Grip SS Property Stamped
10. Grip dated 1943.
My opinion is that this bayonet could have been assembled and issued with the 1943 Steyer BNZ Single Rune Rifle.
Note: The grips seem oversize for the tang area. Grip sticks above Pommel & crossguard.”


But with this grip I see a 1940 date and no numbers. So what bayonet did it come from? Because it can't be the 1943 that was described at some length.



FP,

The SS WKC Blanko is accountability #368. SS Property mark is Runes 2 over Death Head; Rotated. No WA. Matching scabbard. Just pulled this bayonet so as to make a grip comparrison.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Which brings me to this last one:

"Andy,
I have several SS VZ-24 Bayonets that retain the muzzle rings and have SS Property marks. I just took the grips off of one SS VZ-24 bayonets with a muzzle ring and the grips are marked as follows:
1. Accountability #57 matches bayonet.
2. SS Property Stamp.
3. 1939 date stamp."


I don’t know if this is supposed to be one of the “camp made” bayonet grips that you mentioned or not. But it's clear to me that the stampings were made after the fact. On the surface of a grip plate that was next to a rusted/grease (whatever) inner tang surface.

Best Regards, FP


FP,

As per the SS Camp Grips which have accountability #57 on them, they are matched to the accountability # on the bayonet & scabbard / same stamp. The grips are of extremely better condition than the scabbard and do not show the heavy usage as the scabbard. I do not agree that these numbers were put on after the war. This is a Glenn de Ruiter bayonet that was inported into this country in barrels. When I got the bayonet it was still coated in some heavy type of oil that that it had been stored in or was shipped in. I discussed the pricing that Glenn had on his bayonets previously.

Richard K

AndyB #234917 12/08/2010 06:07 PM
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Andy,

In regards to the 1940 dated SS WKC Bayonet you state that the date is too high for an SS Bayonet. The date is too high as compared to what. What documention & or reference are you referring to? I have other SS Bayonets with higher dates. I mentioned before that I have 2 consecutive numbered SS bayonets with 45 dates. The dating of bayonets by grip marking is somewhat of a standard procedure for reworked bayonets.
Richard K

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I have a dated Vz. 23 military issue that I can pull out to check later. But for now, here is an undated Vz. 23 commercial phosphate CZ example that my best recollection says is the same. And I no longer have any postwar CZ bayonets, but my best recollection with them is that the phosphate color is not as dark. So time or perhaps something else like the grease used etc may be a factor as well (?).

But the answer to the question from what I can see at a distance as regards the no muzzle ring bayonet that is pictured, is it looks like to me also that just the exposed parts are blued(?). And ‘in hand’ I would be looking for evidence of cold chemical bluing that is sometimes used to cover up flaws, new work, etc.

CZ phospahte.jpg (70.82 KB, 134 downloads)
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