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And another dress bayonet to add to the visual collection of fake “SS” bayonets. First, the long view which really doesn’t show much. Usually the emblems of these fakes are relatively closely fitted. But the best part with this example is that the faker did a really bad inletting the emblem. And had to use some black epoxy to glue in the button!!

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

An excellent example of what collectors need to look out for. I now that there will soon come a number of fakes of what we have been looking at and discussing. However, as I stated before, I have held back some critical items that will allow the fakes to be readily recognised,


Richard K

AndyB #234443 12/03/2010 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
About the 10170e You must not believe, for us speaks the dbase samples, there is no mentioning of SS stamps on other samples, the piece is well known 41crs piece with missing maker stamp, partly on bayonet and scabbard.
To Your last piece, WKC is certainly a commerzial bayonet, the grips should be plastic, as seen on many bayonets of this producer and middle war era period, it would be nice to see the single rune stamp and compare it with rifle stamping. Anyway the dating of grips are not typical same as the single rune is enough for proofing no need other "SS property stamp"


As mentioned before the DH shouldnt be stamped on LAH frogs or items, so the DH is not the SS property stamp for all branches of SS for me. The TKV should have the DH as their property stamp.But it doesnt mean they should stamp with DH everything.
The WBD are well documented on Wheeler book same as there exist samples on various leather items, there were no any DH found on them only the SS runes when i am correct. On one was found a VA stamp.
best regards,Andy


Andy,

Eventhough the 2 White Frogs that Denny posted for me had SS Marked bayonets in them when I got them. I have to say that the SS Property Marks were no different than what I have seen on SS VZ-24 bayonets and SS TV bayonets. The only comparrison difference I have seen to date has to do with the accountability number location.

I have talked to several of my collector friends over the last several days and none of them have a rifle and or bayonet that they could say is definitely LAH.

All bayonets and rifles have similiar Property Marks. I had Denny post some different SS Rifle and luger property marks from my collection. As to date there is no one type of Property Stamp that has been recognised as to represent the LAH. SS Collectors really have not even seen LAH stamped and or engraved into anything.

Richard K

AndyB #234444 12/03/2010 11:31 PM
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Andy,

Thank you for the kind words about my people. I really appreciate it.

Richard K

AndyB #234445 12/03/2010 11:42 PM
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Andy & FP,

Please look at the grouping of SS Property Marks that Denny Posted. There are several pictures showing rifles with WA 623 stamps on them along with SS Property Stamps. I have not looked at these rifles in years but I would bet the bank that they all received some type of rework of some sort. Rifles usually receive an Eagle N or a Crown N when the SS Property Stamp is applied.

Richard K

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Andy,

You stated somewhere in the recent posts that you had concerns about the Engraved Death Head and Runes shown in the SS Property Stamps.

The picture of the Engraved Light Bulb Death Head And Runes is off of one of my SS Snipers. I think it is the short side rail system. They engraved the scope with the Property Stamp because you could not hit the scope with a stamp and hammer.

That same Property Stamp is used on almost all SS VT 98/05 Bayonets.


Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

My opinion is that the battfield savalge (a bayonet with no scabbard and or broken parts was sent to a SS Weapons Work Camp where an item was either repaired ; salvaged for parts; and or used as is. We got somewhat into the discussion on the 1945 Phospate Finish, Consecutive Numbered bayonets that were taken from such a facility. The work camps were located more inside of the borders of Germany and the Death Camps were further out.

Richard,

I understand the idea of an SS repair facility. And have some idea as to some of the camps that had access to the equipment needed as it relates to arms. But am really more interested in looking at the items to see how the rebuilding/conversions were accomplished.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

Also, thank you for posting the frog. I think I can recognise a difference allready. Do the fake VA Frogs have all of the geometry stamped within a rectangle?

If by “geometry” you mean configuration, I’ve seen other kinds of SS items with VA markings inside borders that could be considered rectangular. And some otherwise generic frogs that have the markings within a stamped border. But not VA marked frogs with the markings inside of stamped rectangular borders.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy & FP,

Please look at the grouping of SS Property Marks that Denny Posted. There are several pictures showing rifles with WA 623 stamps on them along with SS Property Stamps. I have not looked at these rifles in years but I would bet the bank that they all received some type of rework of some sort. Rifles usually receive an Eagle N or a Crown N when the SS Property Stamp is applied.

Richard K

From memory, WaA 623 is seen with a number of new manufacture items: rifles, machine guns, pistols, some holsters and parts. So maybe it’s just a marking on a new barrel? But not by itself a rework stamp.

Best Regards, FP

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"The LAH Band also wore the white frogs. I do not know if they were members of the same regiment that you stated. I have pictures of them wearing the 98/05 white frogs."
Hello Richard, firstly about the LAH band i believe it was a part of LAH Regiment, so when needed they play by visits and similar, so probably mostly in Berlin by the presentation and Guard unit. After changing to Division i dont know what for part they was? maybe still of Regiment Nr.1,there is one article in Mollo about the LAH.
"SS Collectors really have not even seen LAH stamped and or engraved into anything." this is unfortunally not right, there exist white frogs with origin LAH proof, we know minimum about 2 pcs, both are early pre war period. there is no DH stamp. The timeline prior 1939 is important as the DH is not a overall property stamp of SS.
-the piece when reworked it could have certainly some of the marking, but as mentioned to sample WKC late war have a wood grips with 1941 i dont believe this is a real possibility of rework. Same as You mentioned matching WaA883 pieces of grips on this 10160e bayonet, without seeing it, is hard to say about a reworking. You mentioned a nice condition, so probably in origin condition still.
As mentione earlier i dont like the property marks inside of grip, as they are not visible and have no reason.
WaA623 is of Steyr production, i believe the part of production were realised in Mauthausen, so some rifles could have the camp production mixed with work? These rifles were made in other period as the Gew.98 reworks,so its new production of K98k, it couldnt be mixed, same as the property stamps on SG98/05 are there from early 30ies and the sniper rifle is what date?
best regards,Andy



Last edited by AndyB; 12/04/2010 01:18 PM.
AndyB #234496 12/04/2010 01:26 PM
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To the mentioned salvaged reworks it would be to awaiting same marking, to sample same proofing of parts, or You believe that every depot or repair facility have own system of marking? The army repair pieces are normally reserialed numbers on blade or scabbard, reserialed grips or assembly numbers and reblued, no new WaA there as the inspectors were only by firms. best regards,Andy

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FP,

In regards to the VA marked frogs and other items, I am not knowledgeable. I mentioned the VA marking within a rectangle because I saw a holster with that type of stamp. I will try to post some pictures of my VA marked frogs and we can see if they are good or bad.

RICHARD K

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FP,

Almost forgot about the SS WBD marked frogs. Can you post a good one and any bad ones if you have them. I have 2 and I will pull them and try and get some pictures so that they can be evaluated.


Richard Kuchta

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FP,

In regards to the WA 623 I did not mean that that alone was a Rework Stamp. It just happened that the SS rifles that I took pictures of were so stamped and had SS Property Stamps.

My opinion is that at some time period in the 1940s the SS received direct shipments of rifles and bayonets from the Army contractors.


Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234524 12/04/2010 09:00 PM
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Andy,

As per the Wood Grips with SS Markings and dates in them, they are seen in the early SS VT Bayonets, SS Early & Late TV Bayonets and Waffen SS Bayonets. These grips are referred to as Camp Grips. Usually whatever you find them on has been reworked: reblued, accountability numbered, etc.

However, The camp grips are usually95% always found on SS VZ-24 bayonets. This model of SS Bayonet has always been modified & or reworked.

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Andy,

Another thought, as per you having a problem with SS Markings being in a place where you can not see them.

Take for instance the SS Property mark on A VZ-24 rifle. Want to take a guess where the SS Property Mark is located? The SS Property Stamp on the VZ-24s are very consistent where they are placed. The mark is below the stock line and you have to remove the top barrel protector. That is not a very easy job to do. It is about 100 times more difficult to do than removing the grips from a bayonet. Why did the SS Property Mark the VZ-24 rifles where they did? Why put it where you can not see it? Good question to answer.


Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234530 12/04/2010 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"The LAH Band also wore the white frogs. I do not know if they were members of the same regiment that you stated. I have pictures of them wearing the 98/05 white frogs."
Hello Richard, firstly about the LAH band i believe it was a part of LAH Regiment, so when needed they play by visits and similar, so probably mostly in Berlin by the presentation and Guard unit. After changing to Division i dont know what for part they was? maybe still of Regiment Nr.1,there is one article in Mollo about the LAH.
"SS Collectors really have not even seen LAH stamped and or engraved into anything." this is unfortunally not right, there exist white frogs with origin LAH proof, we know minimum about 2 pcs, both are early pre war period. there is no DH stamp. The timeline prior 1939 is important as the DH is not a overall property stamp of SS.

Andy,

I checked with Steve Wolfe in California, Steve is one of the largest dealers in high end German Militaria in the world. He stated that "he himself had never seen an LAH marked bayonet frog and had never heard of a LAH Marked frog in anyones collection." He also stated that he had seen 2 LAH marked belts and nothing else. As far as the marked LAH belts, he could not substantiate there originality. No one else in the SS Weapons Collecting field has seen any marked Weapons & or accourtements with LAH markings.

The only bayonet that has been substantiated as being LAH was shown to you the other day along with 2 different SS RZM DD Helmets and the SS Standard Bearer's Gorget from Standarte #67 in Erfurt. The LAH Bayonet came from the Rochester, New York area in the 1960s and was purchased by a major dealer. Again, this is a KS 84/98 bayonet and there are no property stamps and or LAH markings on the frog. This bayonet was included in a work by the late Dr. Julian Milestone.


Richard Kuchta

-the piece when reworked it could have certainly some of the marking, but as mentioned to sample WKC late war have a wood grips with 1941 i dont believe this is a real possibility of rework. Same as You mentioned matching WaA883 pieces of grips on this 10160e bayonet, without seeing it, is hard to say about a reworking. You mentioned a nice condition, so probably in origin condition still.
As mentione earlier i dont like the property marks inside of grip, as they are not visible and have no reason.
WaA623 is of Steyr production, i believe the part of production were realised in Mauthausen, so some rifles could have the camp production mixed with work? These rifles were made in other period as the Gew.98 reworks,so its new production of K98k, it couldnt be mixed, same as the property stamps on SG98/05 are there from early 30ies and the sniper rifle is what date?
best regards,Andy



AndyB #234551 12/05/2010 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"The LAH Band also wore the white frogs. I do not know if they were members of the same regiment that you stated. I have pictures of them wearing the 98/05 white frogs."
Hello Richard, firstly about the LAH band i believe it was a part of LAH Regiment, so when needed they play by visits and similar, so probably mostly in Berlin by the presentation and Guard unit. After changing to Division i dont know what for part they was? maybe still of Regiment Nr.1,there is one article in Mollo about the LAH.
"SS Collectors really have not even seen LAH stamped and or engraved into anything." this is unfortunally not right, there exist white frogs with origin LAH proof, we know minimum about 2 pcs, both are early pre war period. there is no DH stamp. The timeline prior 1939 is important as the DH is not a overall property stamp of SS.
-the piece when reworked it could have certainly some of the marking, but as mentioned to sample WKC late war have a wood grips with 1941 i dont believe this is a real possibility of rework. Same as You mentioned matching WaA883 pieces of grips on this 10160e bayonet, without seeing it, is hard to say about a reworking. You mentioned a nice condition, so probably in origin condition still.
As mentione earlier i dont like the property marks inside of grip, as they are not visible and have no reason.
WaA623 is of Steyr production, i believe the part of production were realised in Mauthausen, so some rifles could have the camp production mixed with work? These rifles were made in other period as the Gew.98 reworks,so its new production of K98k, it couldnt be mixed, same as the property stamps on SG98/05 are there from early 30ies and the sniper rifle is what date?
best regards,Andy

Andy,
There are some very good pictures of my guns in Senich's The German Sniper.The TK and runes were used on the Ajack short side rail elevation adjustment base. This SS Marking was used from the 30s thru till the end of the war.

Richard Kuchta





AndyB #234552 12/05/2010 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
........ WaA623 is of Steyr production, i believe the part of production were realised in Mauthausen, so some rifles could have the camp production mixed with work? These rifles were made in other period as the Gew.98 reworks,so its new production of K98k, it couldnt be mixed, same as the property stamps on SG98/05 are there from early 30ies and the sniper rifle is what date? best regards,Andy

Really a topic unto itself, in 1944 Himmler boasted of 1/3 of gun barrel production made in Germany was as the result of the workforce under the control of the SS. But then he also claimed 1/3 of fighter aircraft production as well. So while there is some truth in the mater, there is also considerable exaggeration as well. (And then there were also those “guest/other” workers who were not in the camps.)

Originally Posted By: AndyB
To the mentioned salvaged reworks it would be to awaiting same marking, to sample same proofing of parts, or You believe that every depot or repair facility have own system of marking? The army repair pieces are normally reserialed numbers on blade or scabbard, reserialed grips or assembly numbers and reblued, no new WaA there as the inspectors were only by firms best regards, Andy

The above looks like a valid observation. I think that it has been stated on multiple occasions that the “geometry” (type and placement) of the markings has a significance. And it certainly could have some significance. But with the items I’ve seen presented so far, I can’t detect a pattern that seems to make sense.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP, Almost forgot about the SS WBD marked frogs. Can you post a good one and any bad ones if you have them. I have 2 and I will pull them and try and get some pictures so that they can be evaluated. Richard Kuchta

I think that the WBD photos are probably with the VA photos. The one I posted just happened to be with some others I had seen recently.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP, ................ My opinion is that at some time period in the 1940s the SS received direct shipments of rifles and bayonets from the Army contractors. Richard Kuchta

There is some documentation and evidence relating to arms deliveries. But much too involved to address with a short answer.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy, As per the Wood Grips with SS Markings and dates in them, they are seen in the early SS VT Bayonets, SS Early & Late TV Bayonets and Waffen SS Bayonets. These grips are referred to as Camp Grips. Usually whatever you find them on has been reworked: reblued, accountability numbered, etc.
However, The camp grips are usually95% always found on SS VZ-24 bayonets. This model of SS Bayonet has always been modified & or reworked.

Could you please expand or explain further about these other bayonets. I remember something about the Vz. 24 grips. But not some of these other ones.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy, Another thought, as per you having a problem with SS Markings being in a place where you can not see them.

Take for instance the SS Property mark on A VZ-24 rifle. Want to take a guess where the SS Property Mark is located? The SS Property Stamp on the VZ-24s are very consistent where they are placed. The mark is below the stock line and you have to remove the top barrel protector. That is not a very easy job to do. It is about 100 times more difficult to do than removing the grips from a bayonet. Why did the SS Property Mark the VZ-24 rifles where they did? Why put it where you can not see it? Good question to answer. Richard Kuchta

This also is a new area that I don’t remember. And it’s been a while since I’ve had one disassembled. How do you know which Vz. 24 to take apart?

And I would be remiss to not include something new to look at. Here is an original item that was altered to appeal to the “collector market”. The first image shows the backstrap. And in the second we see the engraved pommel with the "SS" motif. And in the third we see not only a a pair of Sigrunes made with something like sharpened chisels or screwdriver blades. But, apparently lacking a set of period number stamps. They made their own “1” stamps adding the upper part of the “1” separately as is pointed out. But not illustrated with markers are the "5" and "4" that were done the same way as the "1". Which is also why you want really good photos before you buy an item.

PS: When trying to read through long quotes to find new material it's very easy to miss something. If the characters could be made "bold face". Or the new text added to the end of the quote, it makes it a lot easier to see a response to a comment, or new material.

Best Regards to All, FP

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FP,

Really great photos of SS Reproductions. I had a vendor send me similar pieces, could have even been the same pieces, to evaluate and purchase. These particular reproductions jump out at you. I have seen numerous SS reproductions with the backstrap engraving.

Thanks FP,

Richard Kuchta

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FP,

In regards to the Camp Grips on other bayonets are you referring to the SS TV 98/05 & SS TV 84/98 and the Waffen SS bayonets? I do not remember saying much about Camp Grips on these bayonets.


Richard Kuchta

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Richard,

Thank you. smile I think that I have another one made by the same guy (faker). And some swords that really belong on the Sword Forum. With my problem being that my filing system (which was not that good to start with) has gotten unmanageable. And I really need to reorganize it, but don't seem to have the time right now to do so.

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

In regards to knowing which VZ-24 rifle to look at for the SS Property marks there are two quick checks:

1. Check the stock for a SS Property Mark. They are usually on the pistol grip of the stock.

2. Check to see if the Sling has an SS Property Stamp.

However, sometimes none of these areas are marked. Then you must look under the wood. Remove the top wood which surrounds the rear sight. You need to be careful or uu can damage this piece. Next, remove the action retainer bolts and move action & barrel out of the stock slightly. Property Mark is under the stock line near the rear sight on the side opposite the bolt
handle.
Andy has a problem with SS Marks under the grips. You have to do some work yo get to see the SS Property Mark on the VZ-24 Rifle.

Richard Kuchta

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FP,

I know the feeling. I had all of my data organised at one time and thought that I had everything that I would need. Then low and behold I was provided the opportunity to obtain SS Bayonets from 2 Large SS Rifle Collectors in addition to inheriting a number of key pieces. The new pieces and data have caused me to start over from the beginning.

A week ago when I pulled the one SS TV Bayonet with the Police Star L, I did not know that the Police marking was on the spine of the Bayonet. The Bayonet was in SS TV Standarte 9 section.

Richard Kuchta

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FP,

When addressing quotes I shall make it more noticeable and easier to find. I have had to break my posts up into smaller segments or when I hit the submit button the system locks up.

Richard Kuchta

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Richard,

Thanks, that would help. In a long posting it sometimes got very confusing. And I had to go and color code them just to try and figure out who said what.

As for the grips what you said I think was : “Andy, As per the Wood Grips with SS Markings and dates in them, they are seen in the early SS VT Bayonets, SS Early & Late TV Bayonets and Waffen SS Bayonets. These grips are referred to as Camp Grips. Usually whatever you find them on has been reworked: reblued, accountability numbered, etc. However, The camp grips are usually95% always found on SS VZ-24 bayonets. This model of SS Bayonet has always been modified & or reworked.”

Your words not mine, and I was looking for clarification.

As for the Vz. 24 rifles, how do you tell something like a Romanian rework from a German one? It’s been a long time since I’ve looked at them, but I seem to recall some out of place markings with some of the imports. And the same thing with the slings. Czech made, versus those made elsewhere after the war.

PS: My own estimate of the time needed to rebuild my files is at least a month. So I can understand the problem with data management that is out of control.
With the good news being that it's not everything, with some segments in (more or less) reasonable shape

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

I am not that knowledgeable of the names given to the specific styles of rework done on the VZ-24 Bayonets. I have such a variety of different styles of rework that the VZ-24 could be a study of its own. One thing nice about the SS VZ-24 Bayonets is that there is a variety of property Marks and we have dates in the grips. I think that it would be fairly easy to make a time line predicated upon dates, Property Marks, and style of rework.

It would be beneficial to know where the majority of the rework was done on the VZ-24 Rifles and bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

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FP,

I also have a reworked Polish Bayonet with an SS Property Mark. It looks like the blanko scabbard had internal modifications made to it to accept the bayonet.

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: AndyB
........ WaA623 is of Steyr production, i believe the part of production were realised in Mauthausen, so some rifles could have the camp production mixed with work? These rifles were made in other period as the Gew.98 reworks,so its new production of K98k, it couldnt be mixed, same as the property stamps on SG98/05 are there from early 30ies and the sniper rifle is what date? best regards,Andy

Really a topic unto itself, in 1944 Himmler boasted of 1/3 of gun barrel production made in Germany was as the result of the workforce under the control of the SS. But then he also claimed 1/3 of fighter aircraft production as well. So while there is some truth in the mater, there is also considerable exaggeration as well. (And then there were also those “guest/other” workers who were not in the camps.)

Originally Posted By: AndyB
To the mentioned salvaged reworks it would be to awaiting same marking, to sample same proofing of parts, or You believe that every depot or repair facility have own system of marking? The army repair pieces are normally reserialed numbers on blade or scabbard, reserialed grips or assembly numbers and reblued, no new WaA there as the inspectors were only by firms best regards, Andy

The above looks like a valid observation. I think that it has been stated on multiple occasions that the “geometry” (type and placement) of the markings has a significance. And it certainly could have some significance. But with the items I’ve seen presented so far, I can’t detect a pattern that seems to make sense.

[b]FP,

I need to get a picture posted that shows a large group of these frogs with the SS Property Stamps. What I am trying to say can better be seen looking at a grouping of TV Bayonet Frogs.

Richard Kuchta
[/b]

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP, Almost forgot about the SS WBD marked frogs. Can you post a good one and any bad ones if you have them. I have 2 and I will pull them and try and get some pictures so that they can be evaluated. Richard Kuchta

I think that the WBD photos are probably with the VA photos. The one I posted just happened to be with some others I had seen recently.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP, ................ My opinion is that at some time period in the 1940s the SS received direct shipments of rifles and bayonets from the Army contractors. Richard Kuchta

There is some documentation and evidence relating to arms deliveries. But much too involved to address with a short answer.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy, As per the Wood Grips with SS Markings and dates in them, they are seen in the early SS VT Bayonets, SS Early & Late TV Bayonets and Waffen SS Bayonets. These grips are referred to as Camp Grips. Usually whatever you find them on has been reworked: reblued, accountability numbered, etc.
However, The camp grips are usually95% always found on SS VZ-24 bayonets. This model of SS Bayonet has always been modified & or reworked.

Could you please expand or explain further about these other bayonets. I remember something about the Vz. 24 grips. But not some of these other ones.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy, Another thought, as per you having a problem with SS Markings being in a place where you can not see them.

Take for instance the SS Property mark on A VZ-24 rifle. Want to take a guess where the SS Property Mark is located? The SS Property Stamp on the VZ-24s are very consistent where they are placed. The mark is below the stock line and you have to remove the top barrel protector. That is not a very easy job to do. It is about 100 times more difficult to do than removing the grips from a bayonet. Why did the SS Property Mark the VZ-24 rifles where they did? Why put it where you can not see it? Good question to answer. Richard Kuchta

This also is a new area that I don’t remember. And it’s been a while since I’ve had one disassembled. How do you know which Vz. 24 to take apart?

And I would be remiss to not include something new to look at. Here is an original item that was altered to appeal to the “collector market”. The first image shows the backstrap. And in the second we see the engraved pommel with the "SS" motif. And in the third we see not only a a pair of Sigrunes made with something like sharpened chisels or screwdriver blades. But, apparently lacking a set of period number stamps. They made their own “1” stamps adding the upper part of the “1” separately as is pointed out. But not illustrated with markers are the "5" and "4" that were done the same way as the "1". Which is also why you want really good photos before you buy an item.

PS: When trying to read through long quotes to find new material it's very easy to miss something. If the characters could be made "bold face". Or the new text added to the end of the quote, it makes it a lot easier to see a response to a comment, or new material.

Best Regards to All, FP

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Apologies for breaking up your topic / debate which I found to be very interesting. I posted this at the start of the thread, that a Heer dagger was also posted in the army dagger section with a " Heinz Brenner " inscription.
The font is identical which is nothing unusual on etched pieces but the fact that one is on an SS marked blade and the other on an army dagger is stretching my imagination smile

Coincidence?.
This post has gone way beyond an individual item so please feel free to ignore my enquiry.....

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Degens #234602 12/05/2010 01:32 PM
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I dont know what should be stamped on a SS reworked Vz.24 rifle, but without any additional infos about the piece, mainly the czechoslovak origin markings is hard to made a opinion, i assume Yours is marked similar on barell as the reworked Gew.98. Thats the point about the reworking, You compare the period of 1935-37 as same as the period of 1942, because earlier were not reworked the Vz.24 rifles, are well known manuals and orders when it were reworked, as You already see here on page the various pictures of SS soldiers of Russia war where they still use the unreworked bayonets with barell rings on crossguard. So the pieces were dated with wrong stamps on inner side of grips, same as You have there a "reworked" A80 piece, which neednt any reworks as they were produced already as SG24(T). Same as majority of the Dh are there engraved. When a piece was damaged by WSS i believe they had a field armorer so the bayonets will not go back to camps, only TKV or guard units could have reworked the pieces there.
To LAH frog, when anyone found a belt marked properly with this marking so i assume the frogs could be found too, it doesnt mean that 2 or 3 people when not hear about it that they dont exist, one of the pieces that are real was found in France, as You probably know the LAH fighted there in 1940 same as later in 1944. best regards,Andy

AndyB #234610 12/05/2010 04:23 PM
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Sndy,

In regards to the LAH marked frog, none are in SS weapons collections nor have the major dealers seen them and or dealt them.

Collectors are skeptical of LAH markings. Those that are out there are fake and are done in different geometric patterns using a metal letter stamp. In this particular case, an SS collector is referring to a map case.

What type of bayonets are in those supposed LAH Frogs that you know of? How are the bayonets marked? Are the frogs on a white belt and suspender set? If so how are they marked? We would all like to believe that there are LAH marked items out there but to date no one has really seen any.

Andy, my opinion is that the LAH used the same property stamps as seen on all of the other SS equipment: rifles, bayonets, binoculars,lugers, and leather goods.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234611 12/05/2010 04:31 PM
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Andy,

In regards to the SS VZ-24 rifle, I used this as an example of the SS placing a Property Stamp in a place that you could not see it unless you work at it. You said that you have a problem with SS markings being in the grips of SS bayonets where they can not be seen. I do not know the answer to your cooncern as to why the SS markings are placed where you can not see them. But the SS did this for some reasom. Later today I should be able to tell you of some other marks the SS placed in areas that you can not see them without disassembly.

Richard Kuchta

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"We would all like to believe that there are LAH marked items out there but to date no one has really seen any." who didnt see it, You and some of Your friends? but there is community around of world, that collect items, some of them are not focused on SS but have a good position to find some real items, i know about russian collectors that found many real items, direct from fighting areas. When You dont believe is no my problem, i could only say the Mollo book about the LAH, has there a piece which is similar marked as the frogs.The frogs were white painted and are from proper maker.
The WBD is real piece and have no DH stamp, same as is early 1935-37 period too,so on 2 evidently SS items are not DH stamps, because the DH is not a property stamp of SS it could probably only TKV property stamp or only a SS rework stamp, when this theory real.
same as the last mentioened VA stamped items dont have any DH on them, the majority of colthing items in all of the vollumes are clearly stamped or signed with RZM which is the acceptance major administrator of real SS pieces. Is no stamps there of DH. When so only with runes.best regards,Andy

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AndyB #234620 12/05/2010 06:31 PM
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Andy,

In regards to SS LAH Bayonet Frogs, you said that you knew of collectors in France that had some and now you know of some in Russia.

Steve Wolfe is a World Wide vendor of German Militaria. He along with alot of other vendors know what I collect and if these vendors knew of such an item or had such an item. I know that I would be informed. Basically, no one has seen such an item as a LAH marked frog. In my opinion, just because I have not seen such an item nor any of the collectors and vendors such as Wolfe & Hardin, doesn't mean that the LAH frog might not exist. However, the frog would have to be analysed and determined to be original. Just knowing of some guys that have white frogs does not make your opinion about them correct.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234625 12/05/2010 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"We would all like to believe that there are LAH marked items out there but to date no one has really seen any." who didnt see it, You and some of Your friends? but there is community around of world, that collect items, some of them are not focused on SS but have a good position to find some real items, i know about russian collectors that found many real items, direct from fighting areas. When You dont believe is no my problem, i could only say the Mollo book about the LAH, has there a piece which is similar marked as the frogs.The frogs were white painted and are from proper maker.
The WBD is real piece and have no DH stamp, same as is early 1935-37 period too,so on 2 evidently SS items are not DH stamps, because the DH is not a property stamp of SS it could probably only TKV property stamp or only a SS rework stamp, when this theory real.
same as the last mentioened VA stamped items dont have any DH on them, the majority of colthing items in all of the vollumes are clearly stamped or signed with RZM which is the acceptance major administrator of real SS pieces. Is no stamps there of DH. When so only with runes.best regards,Andy

Andy,

I never said that the SS VA marked frogs and the SS WBD Frogs were not original. I said that I was not knowledgeable of them. I said that I never got an SS bayonet in a frog that was so marked. You said because there is no TK on these frogs that the TK is only for the TK Division which is a completely wrong statement. Single Rune and double runes are also used as SS Property Stamps. Look again at the SS Styer Single Rune on the receiver of the SS BNZ 43 rifle.

Did Mollo get into the specifics of how the LAH White Rig is marked?

Richard Kuchta

Degens #234628 12/05/2010 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Degens
Apologies for breaking up your topic / debate which I found to be very interesting. I posted this at the start of the thread, that a Heer dagger was also posted in the army dagger section with a " Heinz Brenner " inscription.
The font is identical which is nothing unusual on etched pieces but the fact that one is on an SS marked blade and the other on an army dagger is stretching my imagination smile

Coincidence?.
This post has gone way beyond an individual item so please feel free to ignore my enquiry.....


Degens,

You ask a good question and I really do not have an answer as to why to different Heinz Brenner daggers. What I can tell you is that about 2 to 3 years ago I engaged the services of one of the major SS researchers to try and obtain information on the owner of the bayonet. What was reported back to me was that were were a considerable number of SS Men with that name. I would assume that the name is quite common. To research so many Heinz Brenners was not realistic at that time because it would be difficult to determine who was the corrct Heinz Brenner. If the name is that popular there could be Heinz Brenners in the Army; however, it does not explain the same font etc.
Thanks for the good question.

Richard Kuchta


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I said the piece LAH was found in France, the other piece was found in Europe too,when i correctly remember. The pieces found in Russia were not marked by LAH but with other classical SS stamps. I only would explain that there exist items that Your friend or dealer has no evidence. Thats all.The one of WBD piece was found in east Germany in "kessel" of Halbe, we spoked with FP about it some years ago. It was found a near a Dachau marked identification mark. The condition was certainly not great, there was no bayonet in the frog.Anyway there was no DH on backside or anywhere.George Wheeler has a great frog marked WBD in the book. that is much more better as the items found in east Germany, i have evidence of ammo pouch found in Russia with same marking.
Mollo has detailed picture of the overall white equipment, same as some stamping on knots and mainly clothing, but they have there a item dedicated only for LAH the name and how is the writen, is clear confirmation of the reality of this stamping.

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AndyB #234631 12/05/2010 07:54 PM
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The using a links between a frog and bayonet is very problematic, i could remove a frog from bayonet in 10 second and give them other piece on. Similar is to see as Your 41ddl piece have a frog with added DH? but the other SS piece have a normal Wehrmacht kvz piece. The tracing of originality of complete bayonet-frog, after 70 years is very hard, only some attic founds could be to 90% declared that they are so from war. For 100% is for me not real.

AndyB #234633 12/05/2010 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
The using a links between a frog and bayonet is very problematic, i could remove a frog from bayonet in 10 second and give them other piece on. Similar is to see as Your 41ddl piece have a frog with added DH? but the other SS piece have a normal Wehrmacht kvz piece. The tracing of originality of complete bayonet-frog, after 70 years is very hard, only some attic founds could be to 90% declared that they are so from war. For 100% is for me not real.


Are you saying that items that have been in an attic for years means that they are 90% pre 1945 items???? Andy,to prove authenticity you must do much better than the item was in an attic.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234634 12/05/2010 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
The using a links between a frog and bayonet is very problematic, i could remove a frog from bayonet in 10 second and give them other piece on. Similar is to see as Your 41ddl piece have a frog with added DH? but the other SS piece have a normal Wehrmacht kvz piece.

Andy,

You are trying to compare Apples to Oranges. An army bayonet would not have the addition of any SS Property stamps unless it was battlefield salvage picked up by the SS and or contract shipped directly to the SS. In this particular case it is my opinion that this particullar 41 ddl bayonet was shipped directly to the SS. The time frame is in the range to when the SS was getting shipments of weapons from the major Army suppliers.

Richard Kuchta
The tracing of originality of complete bayonet-frog, after 70 years is very hard, only some attic founds could be to 90% declared that they are so from war. For 100% is for me not real.

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I would only explain the situation, as here are many items found in untouched condition because stored in houses for long time.
When piece was found in a SS marked frog doesnt mean it automatically, it was there from war. So Your 41ddl piece as mentioned before for me is a normal WaA piece, ordered by Army and has nothing to do with SS, same as i dont believe Your opinion about engraving there a DH for property stamps after rework. Partly because there is no sign of propper reworking. The piece has not origin grips but no other signs of reworking.

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