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Forum,

Another SS Bayonet with WA. Bayonet is described as follows:

1. Blanko Blade.

2. WA 883 on the pommel.

3. serial #10170

4. Letter e

5. Blanko Scabbard

6. SS Property Stamped

7. Large R on rear side Tang

8. B & G & 3 on front side Tang

9. Brown Grips WA 385

Richard Kuchta

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FP,
I do not know if I understand your question correctly but I will express my opinion on what I think you are asking. If I am not correct, please explain what you are looking for.

1. Germania, Deutchland started off as VT then to Waffen SS.

2. LAH men were all member of the SS (Early function was Honor Guard / Allegheime SS).

3. SS TV went from KZ guards to a very effective fighting division.

4. All of the early SS had great difficulty obtaining first class weapons.

5. The majority of the early SS weapons ( rifles & bayonets) were WW1 reworks that had property stamps put on them.

6. The SS property stamps were found on rifles & bayonets throughout the war.

7. The SS TK property stamps can be found on 1945 bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

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FP,

In regards to the details of the SS Property Stampings I can only give an opinion. I do not know how they actually performed the stamping operation or how they backed up the belt loop on the frog, and how sharp the Property Stamp was. In addition being a mechanical engineer I know that you can get stress cracking in materials when sharp corners and shrinkage is involved.
Furthermore, looking at some of my other frogs with the property mark stamped into real quality leather a dull image with lack of details can also be found. I saw no cracking on any of the frogs of real leather with a SS Property Stamp.

Now let us address the 98/05 frog with the SS Property Stamp.I am looking at it now under a glass and the details of the TK are perfect. However, there is a stress riser at the same place on the upper skull as the TK on the 84/98.

Why is one stamped TK better detailed than the other? One must look at all of the variables in order to make a good decision.

Quality of workmanship is also a big factor. I have numerous bayonets and one Death Head Luger that have double strikes. The double strike definitely affects the appearance of the Property Stamp. As for the 84/98 TK, I can not tell if it is double struck or not.

Richard Kuchta

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Same as previous this piece have nothing to do with SS.
1. Blanko Blade.
2. WA 883 on the pommel.
3. serial #10170
4. Letter e
5. Blanko Scabbard
6. SS Property Stamped
7. Large R on rear side Tang
8. B & G & 3 on front side Tang
9. Brown Grips WA 385
Your piece is a well known blank 41 crs piece, reported by various members of BCN, Fred should have the number 10160 so 10 digits lower as Yours, the piece should be in 41 crs scabbard or the scabbard should be 883 stamped, the brown grips should be WaA883 stamped.As he dont mentioned a SS stamp same as on other of the e range not reported any SS stamps, so i must believe the property stamp of Yours is a fake.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

In regards to the details of the SS Property Stampings I can only give an opinion. I do not know how they actually performed the stamping operation or how they backed up the belt loop on the frog, and how sharp the Property Stamp was. In addition being a mechanical engineer I know that you can get stress cracking in materials when sharp corners and shrinkage is involved.
Furthermore, looking at some of my other frogs with the property mark stamped into real quality leather a dull image with lack of details can also be found. I saw no cracking on any of the frogs of real leather with a SS Property Stamp.

Now let us address the 98/05 frog with the SS Property Stamp.I am looking at it now under a glass and the details of the TK are perfect. However, there is a stress riser at the same place on the upper skull as the TK on the 84/98.

Why is one stamped TK better detailed than the other? One must look at all of the variables in order to make a good decision.

Quality of workmanship is also a big factor. I have numerous bayonets and one Death Head Luger that have double strikes. The double strike definitely affects the appearance of the Property Stamp. As for the 84/98 TK, I can not tell if it is double struck or not.

Richard Kuchta

Richard while I wasn’t an ME myself, one of my roommates was, another an Aeronautical Engineer etc. so I have an appreciation of stress cracking and some other technical matters. With the one I pointed out the result of an impact - not stress from bending or shrinking.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
“Andy, there are definitely different styles of SS Property skulls. You can see this quite readily on the SS rifles. There has to be some significance to the different style of skulls. Please see Angolia's Cloth Insignia of the SS: pages 189 to 195. Some of these Collar Tab TKs show up on property marks.

I just looked at my SS Ammo Pouches and they are all SS Property Stamped. SS VT; SS TV; Waffen SS ...... All of my 15 SS Combat Belts are SS Property Stamped. SS VT; SS TV; Waffen SS.

If they property stamped all of the above items, why would they not property stamp Bayonets & Frogs????

Could you get some dimensions using a micrometer and calipers. This could at least give us a stake in the ground so as to compare known blanks to the SS blanks.”

With the focus of my question, not really the history of the SS, but only as it related to bayonet frog markings. And if we use the “VA” frogs as our “stake in the ground” for the SS-VT (which I had assumed was OK with you as the users of the “VA” marked frogs). What do you think an LAH marking should look like, versus the SS-TK. And if we take it a step further, are the Death's Head markings on the later frogs supposed to be just for Eicke’s men? In other words some kind of a general outline, so that we understand each other, and are all talking about the same thing.

Best Regards, FP

AndyB #234202 12/01/2010 11:22 PM
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Andy,

Thank you for your kind words as usual.

And as usual I strongly disagree with your opinion on SS Bayonet 10170.

What it started out as and what it ended up as are 2 different bayonets. I couldn't say for sure if is a battlefield salvage bayonet or a rework bayonet. However, from the bluing on both the blanko scabbard and the blade there is a definate match up. The Blade has an excellent SS Property Stamp applied after blue.

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FP,

I am still not quite sure what you ar asking? But here goes.

In regards to the LAH Frogs I can provide the following:

1. I have never seen a LAH marked white frog.

2. I would not consider a white frog without an SS Property stamp to be LAH. A white frog with the typical Fischer Stamp and Runes could be considered LAH but I have never seen such an item.

3. I have never seen an LAH marked black combat frog. Checked with Steve W. and one of my SS collector friends. Neither has seen anythng that denotes LAH.

4. None of my SS Frogs, Bayonets, and rifles have any LAH markings.


All frogs in my collection except for the KS frogs have a SS Property Stamp.

Richard Kuchta

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FP,

A quick comparisson of a SS/VT Frog and a Waffen SS Frog is the following.

SS/TV Frog has:

1. SS Property Mark

2. SS/TV Standarte mark

3. Usually a date

4. Over 90% of the TV frogs have hilt straps.

5. The serial number of the bayonet will sometimes be found on the frog.

The SS/VT and Waffen SS only have a SS Property Stamp and sometimes a date.

Richard K

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Has anyone seen any pictorial evidence of the use of white parade uniform accessories (belt, cross-straps, cartridge pouces, sword hangers, etc.) used by any military or para-military organization other than the Leibstandarte AH or the Schutzpolizei? I seem to recall a photo of a navy parade with white fittings? Anyone recall that?

These would be the only users of white parade accessories, unless exported to other countries? The police marked theirs with Po or similar acceptance. Sometimes unit ink stamps are seen on the natural leather of some pieces. So it would seem those pieces marked only with maker mark and nothing else could only be LSAH or? But no other SS unit.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
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FP,

Both TKs show a stress fracture at the top of the skull. Looking closer at the TKs under the glass the 98/05 TK looks bigger. Have nothing to measure with at home. However size is not the issue here. The depth of the 84/98 TK into the material is as well as the detail. I can only express my opinion and provide some of the variables that can cause this type of distortion and fracture,

JoeW #234225 12/02/2010 12:11 AM
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Joe,

I can tell you one thing that is unique about the LAH belt buckle. I have seen in several collections the area that is inside of the wreath is painted white to set off the swaz..

I do not think that imitation leather bayonet frogs would be a big export item due to their perceived quality.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

A quick comparisson of a SS/VT Frog and a Waffen SS Frog is the following.

SS/TV Frog has:

1. SS Property Mark ( a Death's head?) 2. SS/TV Standarte mark ( a number?)
3. Usually a date 4. Over 90% of the TV frogs have hilt straps. 5. The serial number of the bayonet will sometimes be found on the frog.

The SS/VT (a dated "VA" stamp?) and Waffen SS only have a SS Property Stamp and sometimes a date.

Richard K



Richard,

Thank you.

An SS/TV Frog has: # 1. SS Property Mark * ( a Death's head?) # 2. SS/TV Standarte mark * ( a number?) # 3. * Usually a date # 4. * Over 90% of the TV frogs have hilt straps. # 5. * The serial number of the bayonet will sometimes be found on the frog.

The SS/VT: * (a dated "VA" stamp?)

And the Waffen SS: # 1. * only have an SS Property Stamp (a Death’s Head?) #2. * and sometimes a date.

How am I doing for getting what you stated correctly?

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

A quick comparisson of a SS/VT Frog and a Waffen SS Frog is the following.

SS/TV Frog has:

1. SS Property Mark ( a Death's head?) 2. SS/TV Standarte mark ( a number?)
3. Usually a date 4. Over 90% of the TV frogs have hilt straps. 5. The serial number of the bayonet will sometimes be found on the frog.

The SS/VT (a dated "VA" stamp?) and Waffen SS only have a SS Property Stamp and sometimes a date.

FP,

I have only 2 SS VA Stamped Frogs. I am suspicious of the one. Need some help to determine actual authenticity. I have not come across SS VA frogs while collecting. Never got an actual SS marked bayonet in one. Have not seen them in collections.

I also have 2 SS WBD Marked Frogs. Both were purchased from vendors. I do not discuss them because I have no real providence on them. Never got a SS bayonet in one of them.

Richard K



Richard,

Thank you.

An SS/TV Frog has: # 1. SS Property Mark * ( a Death's head?) # 2. SS/TV Standarte mark * ( a number?) # 3. * Usually a date # 4. * Over 90% of the TV frogs have hilt straps. # 5. * The serial number of the bayonet will sometimes be found on the frog.

The SS/VT: * (a dated "VA" stamp?)

And the Waffen SS: # 1. * only have an SS Property Stamp (a Death’s Head?) #2. * and sometimes a date.

How am I doing for getting what you stated correctly?

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

In regards to the SS Property Marked Bayonet Frogs, I need to express an opinion about the placement of the SS Property Stamp. In comparing all of my marked frogs, the SS property Stamp is in one of 3 places. I feel that there is signifiance in the placement but can not link it to anything specific at this time. In addition there are some different sizes and styles of SS Property stamps.

Richard Kuchta

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Richard,

Regrettably I’ve got some things to tend to now, so this will be brief. The greater L.A. area (before the Internet) used to be a great place to find all sorts of things. And while fakers can and do make copies and bad items - there are real SS “VA” frogs. As for the WBD types, at first I was skeptical of them. And I still am for some. But with others I’m more inclined to put them in the early 'SS/TV' category.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

In regards to the SS Property Marked Bayonet Frogs, I need to express an opinion about the placement of the SS Property Stamp. In comparing all of my marked frogs, the SS property Stamp is in one of 3 places. I feel that there is signifiance in the placement but can not link it to anything specific at this time. In addition there are some different sizes and styles of SS Property stamps.

Richard Kuchta

And please don’t take this the wrong way. But the entry posted above is why I asked for a clarification of a “ SS property Stamp”. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes I was not quite sure just which type of stamps were being discussed (unless of course it was pictured).

Best Regards, FP


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FP,

There are several different types of property stamps:

1. TK Medium Size Property Stamp covers 96% Bayonet Frogs

2. Runes Over TK covers 1% of the Bayonet Frogs

3. Large TK covers 2% of the Bayonet Frogs

4. Small TK covers 1% of the Bayonet Frogs

FP, I hope this hels you to get a better picture.

Richard K

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Forum,

I pulled the last bayonet for the day. This SS Bayonet is very interesting and rare. It was originally mated with a Steyer bnz Single Rune 43.

The bayonet is as follows:

1. WKC Blade.

2. No WAs

3. SS Accountability #742 on the Ricasso.

4. Blanko Scabbard with #742

5. Excellent SS Property Stamp.

6. Single Rune on the Crossguard

7. 742 Numbered Grips

8. Wooden Grips

9. Grip SS Property Stamped

10. Grip dated 1943.


My opinion is that this bayonet could have been assembled and issued with the 1943 Steyer BNZ Single Rune Rifle.

Note: The grips seem oversize for the tang area. Grip sticks above Pommel & Crossguard.

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Richard,

Regrettably I’ve got some things to tend to now, so this will be brief. The greater L.A. area (before the Internet) used to be a great place to find all sorts of things. And while fakers can and do make copies and bad items - there are real SS “VA” frogs. As for the WBD types, at first I was skeptical of them. And I still am for some. But with others I’m more inclined to put them in the early 'SS/TV' category.

FP,

I will have to get some pictures up of these frogs. I could use some help evaluating them if you would.


FP, would you post some examples of what you consider original VA Frogs & SS WBD Frogs.

Thanks,

Richard Kuchta

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

In regards to the SS Property Marked Bayonet Frogs, I need to express an opinion about the placement of the SS Property Stamp. In comparing all of my marked frogs, the SS property Stamp is in one of 3 places. I feel that there is signifiance in the placement but can not link it to anything specific at this time. In addition there are some different sizes and styles of SS Property stamps.

Richard Kuchta

And please don’t take this the wrong way. But the entry posted above is why I asked for a clarification of a “ SS property Stamp”. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes I was not quite sure just which type of stamps were being discussed (unless of course it was pictured).

Best Regards, FP


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About the 10170e You must not believe, for us speaks the dbase samples, there is no mentioning of SS stamps on other samples, the piece is well known 41crs piece with missing maker stamp, partly on bayonet and scabbard.
To Your last piece, WKC is certainly a commerzial bayonet, the grips should be plastic, as seen on many bayonets of this producer and middle war era period, it would be nice to see the single rune stamp and compare it with rifle stamping. Anyway the dating of grips are not typical same as the single rune is enough for proofing no need other "SS property stamp"
As mentioned before the DH shouldnt be stamped on LAH frogs or items, so the DH is not the SS property stamp for all branches of SS for me. The TKV should have the DH as their property stamp.But it doesnt mean they should stamp with DH everything.
The WBD are well documented on Wheeler book same as there exist samples on various leather items, there were no any DH found on them only the SS runes when i am correct. On one was found a VA stamp.
best regards,Andy

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AndyB #234277 12/02/2010 05:02 PM
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Andy,

In regards to the 10170 e SS Bayonet, I do not agree that it is not SS. Your database has no mention of any SS affiliation for this particular bayonet and or any other bayonet and that is apparent.

My opinion is that the bayonet is a rework and or battle field salvage. It has all of the characteristics of either. The SS Property Mark was put on for a particular reason and that is usually that the SS did something to the bayonet and then made it property of.


Richard K

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When on the other pieces were some special stamping it were reported to our dbase, as Fred M. has the nearest piece, You should ask him, As the grips are WaA proofed same as pommel, the piece should be not reworked, but without a picture is hard to say. Anyway a this WaA piece was not destined for SS but ordered by Army. Should not have a property markings of SS as is early war piece. By rework it could be possible.

AndyB #234306 12/02/2010 09:27 PM
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There are great books about SS mainly with history , very interesting reading Andrew Mollo, Uniforms of the SS, 1991 published in UK, very nice insignias and some really interesting information, the white forgs were used by LAH since 1936 only by the Berlin duty Battalion.Vol.3 is about VT 1933-39. the vol4. is about TKV. best regards,Andy

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy,

In regards to the 10170 e SS Bayonet, I do not agree that it is not SS. Your database has no mention of any SS affiliation for this particular bayonet and or any other bayonet and that is apparent.

My opinion is that the bayonet is a rework and or battle field salvage. It has all of the characteristics of either. The SS Property Mark was put on for a particular reason and that is usually that the SS did something to the bayonet and then made it property of.


Richard K

Richard,

If I can summarize what I seem to be seeing: The central part of the argument is that once an acceptance marked bayonet somehow made its way to a SS Depot, a camp, or some other place controlled by them. And was reworked in some fashion. It also had what have been called the “SS Property” (the DH/skull) marks engraved or stamped on the item, and was therefore an item for re-issue to the SS.

An interesting point of view, which brings to mind the German Army rework markings, and I will have to look into what can be seen there.

As for the WBD - VA marked frogs: Andy mentioned George Wheeler’s excellent “Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet 1919 - 1945” where he has a portion devoted to the WBD frogs. And I recall posting a VA marked one about 4 years ago that may have had some portions redacted. But if you have some that you want an opinion on, as always, please feel free to email them to me at any time for a look.

Best Regards, FP

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FP & Andy,

I am having a difficult day today at the plant. One of my managers (48 years old) had a heart attack. His backup is also ill with Bells Palsy. Not much time for the forum today.

I am going to try to send some pictures to Denny. Denny, please don't be upset because all I could do was to get them scanned. The pictures are of some SS property marks taken from my rifles and items awhile ago. It is a good item to use and compare with.

Richard Kuchta

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Denny Gaither #234371 12/03/2010 11:57 AM
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Richard firstly sorry about Your man in work, i hope all would be better, with them.
To Your scans, certainly some of them are confirmed,i mean the DH, but as mentioned earlier they are from rework rifles, that were done only for short period, majority should be proofed with commerzial Nitro proof, and it doesnt mean that the stamp used prewar should be continued to end of war on items, that were not destined for.The DH in lower part of 9552 looks like engraved, and i have my doubts about it. It looks like on rifle slot of bayonet? Anyway there are certainly proper stamped DH but for what for purpose there are stamped i dont know still. Is only opinions as exist no documents about this type of stamps. Unfortunally the small pictures without link to real items could hard explain the overall proofing system. Timeline is very importing thing, as 1933-39 were one period of SS and 1940-45 other period.best regards,Andy

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AndyB #234383 12/03/2010 02:38 PM
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Other dress frog were asked on german forum, the stampings are clear and correct, problem is that were stamped only few years ago, as clearly seen on the damaged leather. So clear fake too.

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Denny,

Thank you for putting up the scans of the different types of property marks encountered on the SS rifles. This is by far not all of the variations. Once I get things going in the plant I hope to be able to pick up where we left off. There is a lot to talk about.

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Denny Gaither #234419 12/03/2010 07:57 PM
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Denny,

Thank you for posting the pictures of the SS RZM Helmets, SS Standard Bearer's Gorget, and LAH Bayonet.

Richard K

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FP,

Can you put up some original VA Frogs for us to see?

Richard K

AndyB #234434 12/03/2010 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
When on the other pieces were some special stamping it were reported to our dbase, as Fred M. has the nearest piece, You should ask him, As the grips are WaA proofed same as pommel, the piece should be not reworked, but without a picture is hard to say. Anyway a this WaA piece was not destined for SS but ordered by Army. Should not have a property markings of SS as is early war piece. By rework it could be possible.


Andy,

I agree with you that the early WA bayonet was not destined for the SS. However, at some point it was battfield salvage and or reworked. It then received the SS Property Stamp.

Richard K

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Andy,

Thanks for the information on LAH in MOLLOW'S Books. I have some but not the whole set.


The LAH Band also wore the white frogs. I do not know if they were members of the same regiment that you stated. I have pictures of them wearing the 98/05 white frogs.

As I stated early on how the band director of LAH had committed suscide because he had rounded up some Poles during the war and had his band members execute them.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Can you put up some original VA Frogs for us to see?

Richard K

Richard,

First, I would like to extend my best wishes to those at work with some serious health issues.

As for the VA frogs, the one photo I was able to find immediately is I think a non-redacted version of the one I posted 4 or 5 years ago. As can be seen I think, I was probably trying to use sunlight to highlight the markings. And I’m sure that by the time we see some of these other items that have been mentioned like the consecutively serial numbered bayonets, I will have found most if not all of the other VA frog pictures I have. And might even get a chance to use a different camera to take some better pictures of mine.

Best Regards, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy,

In regards to the 10170 e SS Bayonet, I do not agree that it is not SS. Your database has no mention of any SS affiliation for this particular bayonet and or any other bayonet and that is apparent.

My opinion is that the bayonet is a rework and or battle field salvage. It has all of the characteristics of either. The SS Property Mark was put on for a particular reason and that is usually that the SS did something to the bayonet and then made it property of.


Richard K

Richard,

If I can summarize what I seem to be seeing: The central part of the argument is that once an acceptance marked bayonet somehow made its way to a SS Depot, a camp, or some other place controlled by them. And was reworked in some fashion. It also had what have been called the “SS Property” (the DH/skull) marks engraved or stamped on the item, and was therefore an item for re-issue to the SS.

An interesting point of view, which brings to mind the German Army rework markings, and I will have to look into what can be seen there.

FP,

My opinion is that the battfield savalge (a bayonet with no scabbard and or broken parts was sent to a SS Weapons Work Camp where an item was either repaired ; salvaged for parts; and or used as is. We got somewhat into the discussion on the 1945 Phospate Finish, Consecutive Numbered bayonets that were taken from such a facility. The work camps were located more inside of the borders of Germany and the Death Camps were further out.

Richard Kuchta

As for the WBD - VA marked frogs: Andy mentioned George Wheeler’s excellent “Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet 1919 - 1945” where he has a portion devoted to the WBD frogs. And I recall posting a VA marked one about 4 years ago that may have had some portions redacted. But if you have some that you want an opinion on, as always, please feel free to email them to me at any time for a look.

Best Regards, FP

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 788
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FP,

Thank you for your concern for my ill Manager & supervisor. My whole Assembly Department got wiped out over night. I was able to move people around and get coverage for the different model lines.


Also, thank you for posting the frog. I think I can recognise a difference allready. Do the fake VA Frogs have all of the geometry stamped within a rectangle?

Richard Kuchta

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Andy,

Thanks for the dress “SS” frog you posted. While I would hope that a casual observer could see that it is a fake as you pointed out (with the newly applied “SS” markings). The point I would like to make is that collectors really have to look closely at what they are looking at. And pay attention to the small details. Here is a minor enhancement of the one you posted which clearly shows that it’s a fake.

SSparades-closeup-W.jpg (45.41 KB, 134 downloads)
Page 11 of 19 1 2 9 10 11 12 13 18 19

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