UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum What do you think the SA Dagger?

I am sure the blade has postwar etchings. Besides, the grip doesn't convince me at all. Obviously the handle and crossguard look old but they don't look like they got old together, if you know what I mean. Where is the SA Gruppe stamp on the crossguard???I would let this junk parts dagger go with no remorse.

777 thank you very much for your reasoning, take this into account, if this is so I'll let her go ... A greeting!

An interesting early SA Dagger for sale, so I have not recorded in your district GAU bottom trim, in very good condition, what do I deserve this dagger?

More pictures from the same dagger:

More pictures from the same dagger:












Dagger saying this? Thanks for all your comments ...

Sorry, it's a parts dagger.

Thanks 777, I had made this dagger illusions, the truth is that it is very nice ...

I've seen this NSKK Dagger for sale but before and I always want to know the opinion of the experts, what do you think this dagger?






I appreciate all your comments and opinions.

Where do you find all those messed up, parts daggers?

He believes that this dagger is made up of parts of other daggers?

Exactly that's what he believes. Crossguards look aluminium, no SA-Gruppe mark, postwar painted scabbard, blade polished with some paint(?) remains inside of motto and logo... do we need any other bservations to make a judgement?

More pictures from the same dagger:

777 Thanks for your reply, then is not a dagger is recommended for a collection?

Depends what kind of collection, at least not for a serious collection. I would not only like it in my collection, but I would be ashamed to offer it for sale as a genuine piece.

Its amazing the extent someone will go through,,to alter or add to a dagger for resale. Sometimes we take a second look at a dagger to make sure of its authenticity,,, this one draws only a half a look see,, and no hands. Thanks for posting this Vassago.,, it is another tool for discerning,, for the new collector Regards Larry

I agree with Erich, when I was amassing my 120+ SA/NSKK daggers I did not concern myself too much with condition overall. I did rate rarity over condition in a lot of cases. So for a common maker it would be condition and the rarer ones I would take what I found and hope for a possible upgrade later.

If a maker only made 1000 daggers and I own one then I count that a bonus even if it looks a little tatty.

I have to say that I do like the RZM daggers as well. Just because a RARER maker used a number instead of a MM does not detract form it being uncommon, in this case though condition is a must. I also always try and buy the transitional daggers, they are also not common.

Happy collecting

Thank you very much everyone for your explanations and opinions, is a Dagger who fails to pass, luckily always ask your advice before you decide to purchase, the hunt continues ....

Hi buddies, another Dagger SA I've seen for sale, but before his advice ...









I appreciate your comments, greetings!

No, not that one either.

Fake portepee

Fake Rohm Signature IMO .. but I'll leave that to experts

Questionable grip eagle

Well, the handle is not Aesculap handle (wrong shape, no usual varnish coating), Röhm daggers have small logo and here we see regular large logo... I don't think there is a need to discuss the dedication if two big red flags can be seen from the start.
BTW. Even if the protepee is a post war addition I like the way it looks, I mean someone was very creative putting the SA symbol inside the acorn

Yeah, I do not care if the acorn is not original at the time, but what if you want to know for sure is if this dagger is totally original before you buy ...

Totally... parts dagger with post war added dedication, that's what it is.

Bone Dagger is the original but the dedicatory inscription of Ernst Röhm's postwar ...

With some of the later macro shots that I got with one example of the “H” daggers I could see multiple “nibbles” by the high speed rotary cutter that was used to carve the letters out of steel. With the example here the bottom of the inscription is obscured, but where the two arrows are they have the same (half) round profile of a cutter - needing a little closer look to confirm. FP

Gee Fred,
I am glad you are not a Dr. because with your record you would have massive malpractice suits against you for your "guessed" diagnostic abilities.
Before you ask, it looks to be acid etched. As far as I can see it is just discoloration or "if in fact" it is a defect in the etch, most likely a defect in the template.
Since you can never be wrong I am sure you will have a response but, my record is far better then your school of witchcraft.
Happy New Year!
Bob

Bob, That was a tentative "diagnosis". Let me see if I do a better with job with a smaller version of this one, and find some pictures after lunch. Fred

Fred,
My point I keep trying to make to you is, if you are not certain of what you are saying, don't say it. Wait until you have sufficient information before you comment on something, please? This is what I keep telling you is damaging tot he hobby. New people do not know who to listen to, speak of facts and not, "I think so".
Please????
Bob

Bob, There are a number of dealers who keep on selling questionable merchandise that are guessing all the time, or trusting in the "story" they were told, or the "expertise" of guys (past and present) who don't have a clue of how things are made. Or if some guy was just passing on what he was told with no specific knowledge. Which is not to say that a particular individual might be doing it all the time, or can't always tell a good item, or if their is information is bad - it just depends on the source and what it is. Likewise, an independent analysis (free of commercial self interest) can err if the lighting is bad, or a mistake made, etc. etc. But at least there is no price tag attached, and guys can look at what is presented and accept or discard the information as it pleases them.

I won't for the moment be addressing just what you think constitutes a "school of witchcraft" or "track record". Instead posting what I hope is a little better image of the dagger inscription in question. Showing two (admittedly not well defined) 'half moon' outlines which is why I said what I did - adding that confirmation is needed. So I'm waiting to have your explanation/expertise as to why this 'snippet' of this example of a "Hühnlein" dagger blade looks like it does. Fred

Fred,
I agree with you on "some" dealers. But your analysis is just as bad as theirs at times. "sometimes" you have good ideas, other times you really are clueless. If you have not noticed, I think more people know of your knowledge level then previously
Bob

Sorry, but I would disagree slightly.

This dagger was offered on a German auction site a few days ago and I have requestd from the seller additional photos.

According to all available photos the dagger itself seems to be ok, only the lacquer of the grip has been removed. I have a very similar example in my collection. I would therefore say that the dagger itself is an original Aesculap SA, not a parts dagger.

The Röhm dedication is clearly faked. No doubt about that. Wrong makers mark and missing details / wrong details in the etching compared to an original dedication.

Anyhow, another dagger spoiled. Too bad!

Bob, I was not the first. Nor it seems am I the only one who has said that the inscription on this dagger has "problems". So I have to assume that the “damage” that was made to the collecting hobby that you were talking about was my proposing a theory of how it might have been done.

“With some of the later macro shots that I got with one example of the “H” daggers I could see multiple “nibbles” by the high speed rotary cutter that was used to carve the letters out of steel. With the example here the bottom of the inscription is obscured, but where the two arrows are they have the same (half) round profile of a cutter - needing a little closer look to confirm.”

So at a minimum in my estimation there was at least an effort to mitigate my negative opinion by including: “.......but where the two arrows are they have the same (half) round profile of a cutter - needing a little closer look to confirm.” So I would think that it was clear that what I said was that it was a tentative conclusion that needed to be followed up with much better images (which seems to be a recurring event in various and sundry discussions).

To further this aspect of the discussion, here are a few additional macro images (not the best, but still usable IMO) that show what appears to me to not be acid etching - but the work of a rotary cutter (such as something like a Dremel Tool) that seems to have been done freehand. So if you would be so kind as to show me where my “diagnostic” abilities are in error, I am ready to be corrected. PS: Because the overall file sizes of the images I have are so large, I’ve had break them down to a smaller size to make them compatible with the forum. Fred

I am not arguing the piece, just your methods of deduction.
Bob

Fred, did you ever worked with rotary cutter like Dremmel etc.?
I did, many times (not on blades, of course ) and I can tell you these letters don't look to me to be done with any rotary cutter and the mysterious "halfmoon" might be caused by template's fault.

I know you're a big fan of Aesculaps and have a nice collection of them, but don't you agree the Aesculap daggers are very special and the same as HACO's or Suhl daggers can be recognized immediately just by the grip shape? All 100% genuine Aesculaps I came across used to have that special grip (you know what I'm talking about). Yes, the laquer could be removed, but the shape stays the same, doesn't it? If one of many of your Aesculaps daggers has also such "atypical" grip then fine, but ask yourself if you would bet your house on originality of its configuration???
I'm trying to keep my collection 100% genuine and free from questionable items, but unless the item is a "barnyard find" of my own or clearly untouched "texbook" piece I will never be able to know what was happening to it during the last 70 years.

777, I have multiple rotary cutting machines, including an older version of a Dremel Tool that I acquired a long time ago that I favor over a newer version that I have. And at the level of image resolution that was posted I really can’t say for sure one way or another exactly how the inscription was applied. However I agree with you that a template was most likely used for the dagger here, and the fault could be with it. But the template I have in mind is the kind used with pantograph engravers which come in all different sizes. From ‘industrial size‘ all the way down to jewelers, sign shops, and the ‘hobby’ types. They are also very easy to build and adapt to a Dremel Tool or one of its clones. Regards, Fred

PS: Attached is one of the other images with a couple of areas of interest that IMO should also be looked at very closeup.

Very interesting your insights, so learn all that is at last within our intention, however I do not think Ernst Röhm inscription was made ​​with a dremel machine, if it had been the result would have been much more aggressive with the blade and not what it seems ...

Almost 80 years ago as more of a publicity stunt than a practical application, a U.S. company using one of its pantograph engravers took a two inch diameter 300 character text template and reduced it to .005 of an inch with a letter height of .0002 of an inch. A reduction ratio of 400 to 1. With my point simply being that the accuracy of any kind of a rotary cutter is more dependent on what is controlling its movement - rather than on the mechanism that is actually spinning the cutter. FP

Thank you very much to all for your help, after looking at several Daggers to buy I think I will decide for this, which apparently has all warranties of originality total, but before making an offer to the seller I would like you to tell me for sure that this is original NSKK Dagger 100%, thanks for your help.

Did this NSKK Dagger is totally original, period?

I can make you an offer? Peacefully to the seller for this NSKK Dagger?




Clicking on the images enlarged

After that I made sure that the Dagger was 100% original I made an offer to the seller and the acquired ....

Here some pictures once I get home.









Thanks for helping me decide to buy this Dagger, a greeting!