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AndyB #233996 11/30/2010 10:47 PM
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Andy,
What kind of Russin Sawtooth Fake are you showing us. Is it suppose to be an SS combat bayonet or a commando knife for the Army cook staff? Please elaborate further.


Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233997 11/30/2010 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
In regards to your statement concerning that there are regulations governing the use and modification of equipment, I would like to see the SS manual and or documentation for what you are talking about.
Sorry but i will not discuss about this, Do You was in army in reality?, You could change Your uniform or move the bayonet position on belt or add or engraving on M16 bayonet Your girls name? What are You talking about. Do You know anything about german army? There is a basic manual of a soldier in WW2 named Reibert, there is clearly described every change is forbidden, and should be payed by cash or jail, no sharpening or bringing any emblems or similar items. As mentioned in previous SS was a elite group of NS Party, so the strenght and disciplin was even stronger as by army.
1. Saw tooth bayonets were outlawed by the Genieva Convention; however the SS/VT & SS/TV continued to use them.
- all bayonets with sawbacks on SG84/98 postwar are fakes, that is from german collectors that have the information, only sawbacks could be find on items like FW dress piece or DRK hauer

Andy, I strongly disagree with your statement in regards to SS Sawtooth bayonets. I have several. I have the 98/05 sawtooth and the WW1 84/98 that has a edge on it that you can shave with. Your substantiation of a couple of guys said that all saw tooth bayonets used by the Germans in WW11 are fakes. I can not speak for the German army, airforce, and navy regarding sawtooth bayonets but I know that my 98/05 Sawtooth Bayonets came out of Dachau. The 98/05 bayonets were stored there in a large quantity. Dachau was a large Work Camp. They made uniforms and equipment in their large shops. Dachau was also a Weapons storage Area fot the SS TV.

2. Did you see anything in the SS Bayonet Regulations regarding the Stamping of KL Property marks in the grips?
-You wouldnt start this thread when a SS regulation existed

Andy, please explain your remark that this thread would not have started if there was SS regulations pertaining to the use & modifications of the bayonet. I assume you have no such documentation from the statement you made. I take it that you have never seen a Sachenhausen KL stamped SS TV bayonet. Guess what? The KL marked bayonets used at Sachenhausen were not German. Do you know what they were?
3. As per the SS Nederland Bayonet, did you consider that it might be a divisional directive, or a batallion directive to have the SS Nederland Insignia inserted into the bayonet grips. The SS Nederland bayonet could also be for the color guard & or Traditions group.
- thats collectors would like believe, in true is not real, for adding emblems there were dress uniform and KS98 dress piece bayonet


Andy, how familiar are you with the SS Nederland. Have you ever seen one of their 84/98 combat bayonets? If so please describe it to us. You are very quick to label bayonets not real when you have no knowledge and or hands on expertise with SS bayonets.

I hope the documentation in your database of 14,000 bayonets is predicated on something more than some collectors said. We work with facts.

Richard Kuchta

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Denny,

I am sending the different SS Bayonet Pictures thr to you. You should get the White LAH rigs first.

Thanks,

Richard K

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"In regards to the SS blanko with the renumbered flashguard,it is your opinion that it is not correct for the SS. However,the SS acceptance standards may not have been bothered with a numbered functional part that you could not see."
unfortunally You have various opinion on same area, the Vz.24 were inerly overstamped with SS runes and twice serialed as SS property stamp, on other way the blanko should be not stamped or no problem by using of various parts? Some 45 dated pieces are innerly stamped, when the Russian already knoked on door, but early war period piece is missmatched with wehrmacht parts. So certainly doesnt functioned a repair facility. Your piece were not destined for SS because the WaA883 proofs, so it could be only got the marks by reworking.
As You mentioned 1938 Elite Diamant, SN8677, WA 218, with SS Property Stamp Lazy S over TK. Is possible that there were switched the grips, when on Elite are not serialed grips, it could by the previous owners were disassembled and switched with the blanko piece.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/01/2010 12:38 AM.
AndyB #234012 12/01/2010 12:46 AM
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"I have the 98/05 sawtooth and the WW1 84/98 that has a edge on it that you can shave" with a sharpening of edges on bayonets were forbiden in War1 same as War2 so when You have razor sharp there is a postwar grind.The sawback bayonets from WW1 exist certainly but i have doubts about their using in army same by SS, the stamps on them that You believe are real, it could be faked too. Without seeing it is no more to say.
And about Nederland bayonet, i must not see it, i know about 25 similar bayonets, that have pinned emblems, the majority of them were upgrades of Gis or veterans thats all, not used there in war. Or You believe that You are the lucky one owner of the Nederland division, and the other 15000 bayonets of the division remained where?

Last edited by AndyB; 12/01/2010 12:49 AM.
AndyB #234019 12/01/2010 02:02 AM
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Andy,

As per your opinions and comments about the SS Sawtooth Bayonets, you are again shooting from the hip. Why would you want to see the SS Property stamps and Accountability numbers on them. You yourself said that you know nothing about them. What are you going to do a shoot from the hip critique of the sawtooth bayonets? Perhaps you will consult with the several collectors who said all sawtooth bayonets used during WW11 are bad.

I am presently at home and I have 2 98/05 SS Sawtooth bayonets in front of me. One bayonet has a high blue finish with the SS Property Stamp & Number under the blue. The other Sawtooth is in the white with Accountability #594. Bayonet made by C. Dietrich along with matching scabbard.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234021 12/01/2010 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"I have the 98/05 sawtooth and the WW1 84/98 that has a edge on it that you can shave" with a sharpening of edges on bayonets were forbiden in War1 same as War2 so when You have razor sharp there is a postwar grind.The sawback bayonets from WW1 exist certainly but i have doubts about their using in army same by SS, the stamps on them that You believe are real, it could be faked too. Without seeing it is no more to say.
And about Nederland bayonet, i must not see it, i know about 25 similar bayonets, that have pinned emblems, the majority of them were upgrades of Gis or veterans thats all, not used there in war. Or You believe that You are the lucky one owner of the Nederland division, and the other 15000 bayonets of the division remained where?


Andy,

Again you are making statements about SS Bayonets that you know nothing about. You know of 25 SS Nederland bayonets with pinned on insigna. What does this insignia look like since you have seen 25 of them? You must now be an expert on phony SS Nederland Bayonets.

You said that you saw 25 fake SS Nederland bayonets with the insignia pinned on. You have annoyed me to the point that I have just taken the grips off of my SS Nederland Bayonet. Guess what? As usual, you are so incorrect. Insignia is not pinned on.

What do you know about GIs enhancing war souvenirs. German bayonets had absolutely no value to a GI at the end of the WW11. Furthermore a GI at this period would have no idea what the shield meant. Here we are 60 years down the road and you sure do not know what it means.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #234026 12/01/2010 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
I already see on german or russian forum each week a new fakes, the SS are already the top runners, so my opinion about one real to nine fakes is already obsolete. Yesterday on a german show added a new collector ask about a sawback piece. The piece is clearly fake sawback, same as the piece is missmatch with missmatched flashguard and unserialed grips. The best thing is the untouched scabbard. The piece was upgraded from a export contract.

I think that the main point above that Andy was trying to make, was as regards what is happening with fakes from the former East Bloc and Germany. Here is a much older period companion piece to the fake sawtooth bayonet he posted. Which is essentially a bargain basement version of the same type export bayonet - no doubt made for those looking for "SS" items. Also note the "beater" quality, which is not at all uncommon for fakers, to boost the prices for otherwise not very desirable items. With the example posted here being at the lower end of the scale as far as the amount of effort used to make it an "SS" item.

FP

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FP,

You do not need to explain for Andy, he has been comming across loud and clear. My SS bayonet collection is a major part of my hobby, it is my enjoyment & passion. I have devoted many years to niche collecting extremely focused on the SS bayonet. I have shown some bayonets that have not been seen outside of the SS Collecting network. I know foums such as this are monitored by people who are out there to defraud the honest collectors and historians. I have tried to share some knowledge with all so as to have a more informed collector community that will not be taken in by the people who make a living preying on honest collectors. SS bayonets deserve a rightful place in the collecting community and the best documented publication is my goal. About 6 years ago I thought that I was ready to do a publication. I thought I had seen all of the different types of bayonets that existed. Boy, was I wrong. I had only scratched the surface. In my sharing of informaton regarding SS bayonets, I have not revealed all. Enough is held back so as to discourage the fabrication of reproduction fakes.

I hope Denny gets to post the pictures that I sent to him this afternoon at 4:00. Hope you enjoy them.

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Today's pictures

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WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #234050 12/01/2010 07:07 AM
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▄

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WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #234051 12/01/2010 07:11 AM
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BLANKO SS BAYONET WITH WA

PROPERTY MARK IS UNDER THE BLUING

Kuchta 11-30_07.jpg (19.34 KB, 177 downloads)
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Denny Gaither #234052 12/01/2010 07:14 AM
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SS TV POLICE / POLICE STAR L

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Denny Gaither #234053 12/01/2010 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: Denny Gaither
Today's pictures


Linge & Forum,

This is somewhat where the SS Bayonet Thread got started. The discussion about the White Frog.

Richard K

Denny Gaither #234054 12/01/2010 07:18 AM
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SS 41ddl Bayonet

Property marked and double dated.


Kuchta 11-30_15.jpg (21.75 KB, 169 downloads)
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Kuchta 11-30_18.jpg (18.61 KB, 169 downloads)
Last edited by Denny Gaither; 12/01/2010 07:21 AM.

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Denny Gaither #234055 12/01/2010 07:20 AM
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more of the SS 41ddl Bayonet

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Kuchta 11-30_21.jpg (29.58 KB, 164 downloads)

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Linge & Forum.

Shown are 2 LAH White Rigs. Only one has the Combat Suspenders.

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Linge & Forum,

Note the following on the 98/05 White Frog.

1. The material of the frog is a substitute leather.(Possibly a compressed paper.)

2. The White finish on the frog is almost like a paint. Could be due to age.

3. Note the maker on the Frog. Can someone make it out, I need it for my documentation.

4. Last but not least is he SS Property Stamp. Not easy to see the detail but it is there.

Richard Kuchta

Denny Gaither #234058 12/01/2010 07:42 AM
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Linge & Forum,

The SS White Bayonet Frog with the purple ball portapee is an 84/98 SS LAH Frog.

1. Frog has the Fischer Berlin Stamp.

2. 1938 date.

3. I do not believe the material of the frog is leather. I do not know what it is made from.

4. Note the SS Property Stamp.

Richard K

Denny Gaither #234123 12/01/2010 07:53 AM
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Forum,

The SS 84/98 bayonet from the LAH White Rig has the fo;;owing description:

1. Blanko Blade

2. WA 88 on the pommel.

3. Accountability # 248 stamped into the scabbard and bayonet.

4. Blade has high polish and very high blue. Quality far exceeds the normal SS combat bayonet.

5. Bayonet has a different style of SS Property Stamp. I have not shown this to you before.

6. Property stamp is below the blue.


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Denny,

Thank you for posting the pictures for us.


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Forum Members,

Do you have any questions that I can answer for you on the White Frogs and LAH Rigs?

Richard Kuchta

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Richard,

You’ve caught me a little off guard. Because I wasn’t expecting one of the no maker marked bayonets so soon to do a comparison as we had discussed. So I had to pull up some images from an old photo shoot years ago. (Note: My apologies up front for the quality of my images, with the less than optimal (florescent) lighting that I was using at the time.)

Posted below are a couple of side by side images with your no maker marked Waffenamted bayonet. Beside one of mine of the same approximate vintage, with mine possibly being just a ‘tad’ earlier (?) (but not much).

PS: My thanks to Denny also for posting them.

Best Regards, FP

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To Your white frog Fischer 1938 it should be leather or special pressed material, the marking should be under white paint, as the maker is under it and the DH is over the white paint, i believe the DH is no same period marked.
-1. Blanko Blade
-wood grips are correct on this, but should be serialed with tang
2. WA 88 on the pommel.
-there is 883 with no visible 3 on end
3. Accountability # 248 stamped into the scabbard and bayonet.
-its a normal serial number
4. Blade has high polish and very high blue. Quality far exceeds the normal SS combat bayonet.
- it was part of Portugal contract that was not realised
6. Property stamp is below the blue.
-that shouldnt be as the stamp were added on a fullended bayonets, so the blueing must be under as the DH is engraved
-to 41 ddl as already mentioned before its equiped with late war grips, so probably a late war rework?


Last edited by AndyB; 12/01/2010 11:41 AM.
AndyB #234153 12/01/2010 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
To Your white frog Fischer 1938 it should be leather or special pressed material, the marking should be under white paint, as the maker is under it and the DH is over the white paint, i believe the DH is no same period marked.

Andy,

If the SS Property stamp was under the white paint it would be a fake. The frogs are purchased items finished in white. Received in and then property stamped.

Richard Kuchta
-1. Blanko Blade
-wood grips are correct on this, but should be serialed with tang
2. WA 88 on the pommel.
-there is 883 with no visible 3 on end
3. Accountability # 248 stamped into the scabbard and bayonet.
-its a normal serial number
4. Blade has high polish and very high blue. Quality far exceeds the normal SS combat bayonet.
- it was part of Portugal contract that was not realised
6. Property stamp is below the blue.
-that shouldnt be as the stamp were added on a fullended bayonets, so the blueing must be under as the DH is engraved
-to 41 ddl as already mentioned before its equiped with late war grips, so probably a late war rework?


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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Originally Posted By: AndyB
To Your white frog Fischer 1938 it should be leather or special pressed material, the marking should be under white paint, as the maker is under it and the DH is over the white paint, i believe the DH is no same period marked.

Andy,

If the SS Property stamp was under the white paint it would be a fake. The frogs are purchased items finished in white. Received in and then property stamped.

Richard Kuchta
-1. Blanko Blade
-wood grips are correct on this, but should be serialed with tang
2. WA 88 on the pommel.
-there is 883 with no visible 3 on end
3. Accountability # 248 stamped into the scabbard and bayonet.
-its a normal serial number

Andy,

The number was asses by the SS.
4. Blade has high polish and very high blue. Quality far exceeds the normal SS combat bayonet.
- it was part of Portugal contract that was not realised
6. Property stamp is below the blue.
-that shouldnt be as the stamp were added on a fullended bayonets, so the blueing must be under as the DH is engraved
-to 41 ddl as already mentioned before its equiped with late war grips, so probably a late war rework?


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FP,

The SS Blanko was not to throw you off guard. I had the bayonet with my LAH Rigs. I saw that it was a WA blanko and decided to post it.

It would be a great breakthrough to identify the blanko blades. I was thinking about making a detailed drawing of a bayonet with all of the measurement positions indicated. Then we would all be measuring from the same specified points. What do you think?

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Thanks for picture of white frogs, already these frogs shouldnt be have DH, because DH was not marking of LAH, LAH is well documented with doubble rune SS marks, so it must be from other part of SS. There exist real samples marked with same producer and LAH stamp but without any DH stamps. I assume Your pieces should be TKV units probably.

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Richard- The material in the frogs is an artificial leather that was specified in police regulations requiring the discontinuance of the use of leather in the manufacture of most of the parade dress accouterments in the 1937/38 period. Some leather had to remain where extreme flexibility was needed. Please note that when these materials were produced seventy-three years ago, they were still pliable and capable of accepting stampings and impressions into the surface.

The make of the white frog in the photos at the bottom of pg 37 is Hans Romer of Berlin, a well-known manufacturer of police accessories including shakos. I sold a parade dress set of belt, shoulder harness and instrument hanger similar to yours a year or two ago to a dealer. I notice the impression of the TK on the frog at the top of p 38 has broken the surface of the hardened material, while the original markings of the manufacturer applied 70+ years ago are impressed into the material. How would you explain why that TK marking shows the obvious signs of being impressed into a hardened surface to the extent that the finish cracked?

And also on p 38 near the top, I can't say that I am impressed by the marking you call a police star L on the S84/98 that also has some kind of TK mark engraved. It is quite crudely done and looks nothing like any Prussian police acceptance marking as seen here on a police bayonet. Notice the L was engraved to the side of what is supposed to be a star/sunburst,unlike any other Prussian acceptance marks.


And as Andy pointed out. Why would white parade accessories used by the LAH be marked with a TK and not the LSAH marking. I have show a faked LAH marking applied to a white police frog.

No TK units used white parade accessories. The only SS unit with white was the LSAH. So you are saying that these TK marked pieces are LSAH? Or they are not original.

Last edited by JWotka; 12/01/2010 06:36 PM.

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JoeW #234172 12/01/2010 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: JWotka
Richard- The material in the frogs is an artificial leather that was specified in police regulations requiring the discontinuance of the use of leather in the manufacture of most of the parade dress accouterments in the 1937/38 period. Some leather had to remain where extreme flexibility was needed. Please note that when these materials were produced seventy-three years ago, they were still pliable and capable of accepting stampings and impressions into the surface.

The make of the white frog in the photos at the bottom of pg 37 is Hans Romer of Berlin, a well-known manufacturer of police accessories including shakos. I sold a parade dress set of belt, shoulder harness and instrument hanger similar to yours a year or two ago to a dealer. I notice the impression of the TK on the frog at the top of p 38 has broken the surface of the hardened material, while the original markings of the manufacturer applied 70+ years ago are impressed into the material. How would you explain why that TK marking shows the obvious signs of being impressed into a hardened surface to the extent that the finish cracked?

And also on p 38 near the top, I can't say that I am impressed by the marking you call a police star L on the S84/98 that also has some kind of TK mark engraved. It is quite crudely done and looks nothing like any Prussian police acceptance marking as seen here on a police bayonet. Notice the L was engraved to the side of what is supposed to be a star/sunburst,unlike any other Prussian acceptance marks.


And as Andy pointed out. Why would white parade accessories used by the LAH be marked with a TK and not the LSAH marking. I have show a faked LAH marking applied to a white police frog.

No TK units used white parade accessories. The only SS unit with white was the LSAH. So you are saying that these TK marked pieces are LSAH? Or they are not original.


Joe,

On both White frogs you can see that the manufacturer's stamp was put into the leather before the white coating was aapplied. If you also look closely at the 98/05 frog you will see stress cracks all around the manufacturers stamp.
On the 84/98 frog there is cracking by the date,.

Both TK show cracking. Similiar principle is seen with cement and sharp corners. You get stress ceacking.

Joe I have never seen LAH markings on any leather or metal.However; I am not saying that it does not exist because I have not seen it. Can you post some for us to see. The rig that you recently sold, was that LAH marked.

Richard K

JoeW #234173 12/01/2010 07:51 PM
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Joe,

In regards to the SS Police Star L, I showed you what was on the spine of the blade. I have had the bayonet for a considerable period of time and never noticed the mark. I pulled it last week when the discussion was about WA SS marked bayonets. I only have limited expertise with police items. Does this bayonet fit into the serial numbers for a police bayonet? The frog that is on this SS TV Police marked bayonet is 1940.

I have called the marking on the spine of the blade police star L. That is what it looked like to me. It is not that easy to determine.


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Joe,

When I look at the police bayonet, I can not make out a TK by the star L. I needed a magnifying glass just to make out the blurred geometry. Again, just because I can not see it does not mean that it is not there. The smallest TK that I ever saw was on a VZ-24 bayonet and that would have been bigger than the mark that we are looking at.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

Joe,

On both White frogs you can see that the manufacturer's stamp was put into the leather before the white coating was aapplied. If you also look closely at the 98/05 frog you will see stress cracks all around the manufacturers stamp.
On the 84/98 frog there is cracking by the date,.

Both TK show cracking. Similiar principle is seen with cement and sharp corners. You get stress ceacking.

Joe I have never seen LAH markings on any leather or metal.However; I am not saying that it does not exist because I have not seen it. Can you post some for us to see. The rig that you recently sold, was that LAH marked.

Richard K

Richard,

I think that I can see in the image what Joe was referring to. The broad outline of the skull has broken not only through the paint. But it has also broken the laminated layer beneath. And I can attest to the very brittle nature of the laminated frogs that have become more or less “fossilized” (after 70 plus years) from broken in half examples that I have looked at very closely. But what IMO is even more important is that even after breaking through, why is it that the small details of the skull are virtually invisible? Was it because the paint was also too hard for the stamp to make a proper impression?

I’m also thinking about your suggestion to take measurements, but I want to look at a few things first.

Best Regards, FP

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The star marking L looks like engraved, certainly not same as seen on period police bayonets, Richard You should compare it with Your other ACS police bayonets spine proofs.
The white frog have cracking by date area because of the area is moving on belt,this is a rivet line, the area where is the DH is behind the belt so it should be not cracked in no way. I believe Joe is right on this. The DH was there stamped much later. You didnt answer why there is a DH on LAH equipment?
To other piece the frog on 41ddl marked with additional DH and 41, i am not expert on this area on frogs, but maybe FP could help, one well known frog collector of Germany, is member here too, mentioned a short middle stitching frog were delivered only to one branch of Army.
Same as You have other army pieces here kvz 1943 not SS marked on a SS piece, why are the frogs, when there from beginn, not SS marked?

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Joe,

I just called my friend Steve Wolfe and asked him for some information about LAH marked equipment. He said that in his career he can only remember seeing about 3 belts that were LAH marked. He said that he never saw an LAH marked frog. As for the suspenders, belts, cross straps, and belt loop equipmnt rings that they are almost always marked with a set of runes and the FISCHER stamp.

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

Joe,

On both White frogs you can see that the manufacturer's stamp was put into the leather before the white coating was aapplied. If you also look closely at the 98/05 frog you will see stress cracks all around the manufacturers stamp.
On the 84/98 frog there is cracking by the date,.

Both TK show cracking. Similiar principle is seen with cement and sharp corners. You get stress ceacking.

Joe I have never seen LAH markings on any leather or metal.However; I am not saying that it does not exist because I have not seen it. Can you post some for us to see. The rig that you recently sold, was that LAH marked.

Richard K


Come on Richard, those are stress cracks on the Romer frog running horizontally in the frog through the maker's mark created by bending pressure when the frog was attached to a belt. The belt loop is right above the marking and if that point is fixed to a belt, any movement of the frog away from the belt would create horizontal stress marks. They are not cracks from applying the marking. It would debate whether the maker marks were applied before the white finish. In either case, the Po marking on my frog did not crack or indent the finish like the LAH marking above or the TK on yours.

Your white Fischer frog shows similar horizontal bending cracks at the point of the maker mark below the belt loop while the TK that was recently applied above to the rock hard surface shows stress fracture following the circumference of the stamp.

I do not know what you mean by cement and sharp corners. These frogs were made of pliable materials 70+ years ago. You get stress fractures when bending or stamping with a metal stamp after the fact.

The leather set I sold was marked with commercial maker mark and ink stamped police markings.

I am not familiar with any LAH marked leather goods. Aside from the police and the LAH, what other military or party formation used white leather for parade purposes?


"This hobby is a continuing education"
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and Walther PP #975557
AndyB #234183 12/01/2010 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
The star marking L looks like engraved, certainly not same as seen on period police bayonets, Richard You should compare it with Your other ACS police bayonets spine proofs.
The white frog have cracking by date area because of the area is moving on belt,this is a rivet line, the area where is the DH is behind the belt so it should be not cracked in no way. I believe Joe is right on this. The DH was there stamped much later. You didnt answer why there is a DH on LAH equipment?

Andy & Joe,

The cracking that is occuring on the frogs that I pointed out is not from movement. These frogs haven't moved in 60 years. You have shrinkage & stress.

As far as an SS Property Stamps on a LAH piece of equipment what is your problem. I thought the LAH was part of the SS? I just checked with Steve Wolfe and one of my fellow SS collectors and neither have seen LAH marked frogs. Steve is the only person who has seen LAH marked belts.Only Belts. Both people said the same thing that the White belt and accessories are almost always marked with the Fisher Stamp and runes. Are you saying that there should not be property stamps on Germania & Deutchland equipment also??

Now you tell me why there should not be an SS Property stamp on LAH equipment. Where is it documented that there should be no SS Property Stamp on LAH Equipment. As I told you before, I have passed up alot of bayonets and frogs because there has been no SS Property stamp on them.
To other piece the frog on 41ddl marked with additional DH and 41, i am not expert on this area on frogs, but maybe FP could help, one well known frog collector of Germany, is member here too, mentioned a short middle stitching frog were delivered only to one branch of Army.
Same as You have other army pieces here kvz 1943 not SS marked on a SS piece, why are the frogs, when there from beginn, not SS marked?


I do not understand your question. Please elaborate.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Joe,

I just called my friend Steve Wolfe and asked him for some information about LAH marked equipment. He said that in his career he can only remember seeing about 3 belts that were LAH marked. He said that he never saw an LAH marked frog. As for the suspenders, belts, cross straps, and belt loop equipment rings that they are almost always marked with a set of runes and the FISCHER stamp.

Richard Kuchta


Well I certainly welcome Steve's observations over a lengthy career, but "...LAH marked" certainly doesn't cut it for detail. There is a bogus LAH mark on my white frog. If they are just LAH initials, they better be as well struck as the maker mark's and date or they are bogus in my opinion. The material was soft when made and took a stamping of maker and date as well as the Po. Anything the shows a crack or indentation around the mark would indicate a recent application, that is to say sale to militaria enthusiasts.

I have not looked for LAH leather markings. But how they are marked is irrelevant to our discussion. Because the LAH was the only unit that was permitted to wear white parade dress equipment. And you have shown us white frogs with TK that are with bayonets with TKs that you say indicate TK units.

I would not be uncomfortable with the idea that white Fischer, Larsen or Romer equipment with only maker marks could have been used by the LSAH.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
JoeW #234186 12/01/2010 09:49 PM
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Both people said the same thing that the White belt and accessories are almost always marked with the Fisher Stamp and runes.My question was about the DH, maybe for Joe not so important, You believe the DH is a overall property stamp of SS, thats really not, the LAH was the first unit that got directly the runes SS and have it incorporate in the name, i know about 2 collectors that have the LAH real frog stamped with runes, there are not DH, as it were not the property stamp of LAH.Both frogs are Fisher made and white. When no other frog of SS should be white, so Your DH there is a new fake stamp.n When TKV used white equipment and the frog DH stamp is real, then it could be other branch of SS.

Last edited by AndyB; 12/01/2010 09:50 PM.
AndyB #234187 12/01/2010 09:53 PM
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Richard,

It might help at this point if you presented your views on where the pieces of the puzzle fit. LAH, SS-TK, and the SS-VT, with Germania and Deutschland being a part of the SS-VT. Which I had assumed was OK with you as the users of the “VA” marked frogs. And if we take it a step further, are the later Death's Head markings supposed to be just for Eicke’s men?

Best Regards, FP

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