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AndyB #233859 11/29/2010 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
WKC would never accept that there is their trademark on a assembled piece, anyway there is no evidence of assembling bayonets in camps, reworking is other possibility. As Your piece is late war, the condition You could compare with my attached piece, the grips should be red colored plastic, certainly the grips could be not 1941 dated by matching piece.
The 45 dated piece are in reality a 43/44 pieces reworked there maybe,as You mentione 2 WaA removed on pommel it must be early 44 maximum, the consecutive numbers could be nice but without seeing is hard to say, what for grips are there? Wood?
I assume as in plastic is hard to give any additional stamps?
The pieces are in reality 45 reworked not produced.Thats all. It would be nice to see the remains of producer marking. best regards.Andy


Andy,

You could be right on the actual date of the bayonets before they were reworked. There is no way to tell the date of the material that was reworked into the new SS bayonets.

Richard K

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Andy,

In regards to camp made and assembled bayonets, I have several very crude examples that could never have got through an actual bayonet manufacturing facility. They would have been tossed into the scrap barrel to hide the hideous workmanship.

Richard K

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Andy,

The 45 dated bayonets do have new wooden grips. There is not a scratch on them. The inside of the grips provide great documentation for the SS bayonet.


Richard K

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No way that is Your piece 1940 cul, and certainly not a W range.When scribed font letter so Your piece is a 40 cvl,and the series letter is m or n.Without seeing details is probably not more to say.Is a normal Wehrmacht accepted piece. Is have no link to SS only the frog is probably SS piece.best regards,Andy

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Andy,

In regards to WKC would never allow having their Manufacturing Logo on a bayonet not put together by them is your opinion. There are so many different circumstances in which this was accomplished.

1. Remanufactured Bayonet (reworked and new parts added where required)

2. Bayonets assembled in a work camp.


Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Forum Members,

In regards to the SS VT 98/05 Bayonet, what is the lowest accountability number documented?


Fact: The lowest recorded SS 98/05 Serial # is #17.

Richard K


Richard K


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Sorry but WKC stamped the logo on already finished bayonets so when crude made is made by WKC and no others. By reworking spures is clear that we dont know where it was reworked, maybe in camp, maybe by field armorer or maybe postwar by country that used it, or by faker.
You didnt answered on the 1940 cul details? Or You have problem by deciphering the code cvl and cul? cvl code should be in handwriten font, the cul in block letters. The series letter You reported is too wrong it must me other letter.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/29/2010 08:42 PM.
AndyB #233881 11/29/2010 09:50 PM
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Andy,

As per your bayonet question, it is cvl written in hand script. Dated 1940

Richard K

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Andy & Forum,

I discussed the 41ddl before; WA 883; serial #8510; Letter b; with matching scabbard.The frog is maker marked and dated 1941. The frog has an SS property stamp and is also dated 1941. Bayonet is SS property stamped Runes2 over TK.

With the dated SS Proprty stamp on the frog, and the SS Property stamp on the bayonet, and the matching scabbard dated 1941, it is my opinion that this bayonet would be an army bayonet (contract) supplied direcly to the SS.


Richard Kuchta

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When You have a interest to know the letter of series You should send the picture, but i believe is letter m, as is reported as last in 1940.

AndyB #233885 11/29/2010 10:16 PM
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The piece 41ddl coulnt go to SS because of the serial numbers, the serial numbers were added as acountability numbers of Army, they proofed it with WaA stamps and after this it was property of Wehrmacht. Thats because army didnt proof it with unit markings, the bayonets go directly to Depots, where were distributed to units later, the serial number with letter was important for invertarisation, same as soldiers got this numbers in their soldbuchs and were responsible for their equipment.
That Your piece have a SS stamp could only mean a rework by a SS fieldrepair unit or camp, or the stamp is a fake.

AndyB #233886 11/29/2010 10:17 PM
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Andy,

The 41ddl is definitely marked with a lower case b below the serial #.

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Since 1941 is possible that Waffen SS got the equipment directly from army storages same as from commerzial contracts too, but the WaA proof was accepted as enough quality for W-SS so they neednt any additional markings. Other point are the TKV or A-SS where the bayonets were obtained continuosly by only commerzial contracts. There could be special serial strings like typical on a police bayonets or others.
It is estimated that Wehrmacht ordered in 1934-45 14.5 Million bayonets, all of them are WaA proofed.

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Andy & Forum,

Just pulled 2 more SS bayonets from the showcase; both have wooden grips:

The first is marked as follows:

1. Blanko blade.

2. WA 883 on the pommel.

3. Unmarked scabbard

4. SS Property Stamp on Bayonet.

5. No accountability #

SS Bayonet #2 is described as follows:

1. Blanko Blade.

2. No WAs.

3. Unmarked scabbard.

4. SS Property Stamp on bayonet. Different style than SS Bayonet #1 and in a different location.

5. No accountability number.

The blades in both of these bayonets look like WKC Blades.

Please provide your input on who the blade maker could be and where were these bayonets assembled.

Richard K

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The piece nr.1 is with high possibility a blanko piece for export to Portugal, it must be examined by marking under grips, normally the crossguard should be serialed. Some of the contract rifles were used by german army, so its possible that Your piece could be one of the remain of these contract. I personally dont believe there should be SS stamps, but without seeing it is nothing more to say.
The nr.2 is with high possibility a NS party organisation piece, could be SS piece, but same to SS property stamp, without seeing it is no more to say. It could be real piece.
The producer of blankos is not identified yet.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/29/2010 10:46 PM.
AndyB #233897 11/30/2010 12:58 AM
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Andy,

In regards to the #1 SS Bayonet, this is what I have found:

1. There is no number on the crossguard.

2. There is no serial # in the grips.

3. Both grips are marked WA 218.

4. Flashguard is numbered: #05823.

Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233899 11/30/2010 01:07 AM
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Andy,

In the SS collector community, it is said that WKC & Horster furnished bayonet blanks to the SS.

Do you have any specs & or documentation for the WKC & Horster Blades?

Does anyone have any recommendations as how to imperically compare blanko blades to known blades so as to make a determination of who made them?

Richard K

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Joe & Forum,

The other day when I pulled the SS/TV Standarte Thule, Police Bayonet; Police Star L. I really did not know that this was a police marked bayonet. I did not expect to see it on a SS/TV Standarte Thule Bayonet. It resided in the TV Bayonet Section. I did not see the police markings until last week. The markings are extremely small and the bluing hid them well.


Richard Kuchta

AndyB #233902 11/30/2010 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
Since 1941 is possible that Waffen SS got the equipment directly from army storages same as from commerzial contracts too, but the WaA proof was accepted as enough quality for W-SS so they neednt any additional markings. Other point are the TKV or A-SS where the bayonets were obtained continuosly by only commerzial contracts. There could be special serial strings like typical on a police bayonets or others.
It is estimated that Wehrmacht ordered in 1934-45 14.5 Million bayonets, all of them are WaA proofed.


Andy,

You state that the WA was accepted as enough quality for the SS and that they would need no other markings. I would agree with you as far as quality is concerned. However, what we are talking about mostly is property stamps. Property stamp has nothing to do with quality.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
...... However, I do agree with your statement concerning hilt retainers on Waffen SS Frogs. If you look at all of the pictures of Waffen SS Men you see a lot of bayonets with hilt straps............ It stands to reason that at some point in time that the SS was receiving WA / Army bayonets, rifles & equipment.....

Richard Kuchta


Originally Posted By: AndyB
Since 1941 is possible that Waffen SS got the equipment directly from army storages same as from commerzial contracts too, but the WaA proof was accepted as enough quality for W-SS so they neednt any additional markings.


Over time the longer the war lasted, the proportional increase in tie strap equipped frogs produced accelerated ...... There was correspondence circa 1940 (?) between the head of the Waffen-SS and the OKH, wherein the OKH agreed to supply the W-SS. But as the pictures of unaltered weapons show quite clearly, that this did not happen instantly, and the W-SS continued to use captured weapons until they were re-equipped.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
......I have several very crude examples that could never have got through an actual bayonet manufacturing facility. They would have been tossed into the scrap barrel to hide the hideous workmanship.

Richard Kuchta


As Andy mentioned, late WKC bayonets are well known for their very crude finishing. With one of things that seems to be forgotten in this discussion being that (unwilling) “guest” workers were working in factories. And which would be easier? To relocate some workers? Or to move a whole factory, build infrastructure, acquire tooling etc. etc.? (Which in a postwar photo is seen with some lathes in Dachau. But they don't look like they were ever used, so the installation must have been lacking something.)

Originally Posted By: AndyB
The piece nr.1 is with high possibility a blanko piece for export to Portugal ....... Some of the contract rifles were used by german army, so its possible that your piece could be one of the remain of these contract.


Portugal had multiple contracts, and the bayonets fall into the WaA253, WaA883, and WaA519 groups. All of them with no maker, and some are not numbered. When I looked into it years ago, I thought at the time that they might be P. Weyersberg manufactured. But without seeing the bayonet in question it’s just guess, as there is no basis for comparison.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Do you have any specs & or documentation for the WKC & Horster Blades?

Richard Kuchta


I don’t have period specifcations/documentation. But will dated (and undated/commercial) OEM condition bayonets suffice instead?

Regards to All, FP

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FP,

Could you get some dimensions using a micrometer and calipers. This could at least give us a stake in the ground so as to compare known blanks to the SS blanks.

Richard K

AndyB #233912 11/30/2010 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
The piece 41ddl coulnt go to SS because of the serial numbers, the serial numbers were added as acountability numbers of Army, they proofed it with WaA stamps and after this it was property of Wehrmacht. Thats because army didnt proof it with unit markings, the bayonets go directly to Depots, where were distributed to units later, the serial number with letter was important for invertarisation, same as soldiers got this numbers in their soldbuchs and were responsible for their equipment.
That Your piece have a SS stamp could only mean a rework by a SS fieldrepair unit or camp, or the stamp is a fake.


Andy,

I agree that the SS Property stamp would not be put on at the manufacturing factory under the control of the WA. Had to be put on after bayonets were received by SS and or at SS weapons depot or SS Weapon's Work Camp.

Richard K

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Forum Members,

The earliest recorded SS stamped date on a 98/05 frog is 1934. The date is located toward the bottom of the frog.

Richard Kuchta

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Forum,

Concerning the SS 43asw Nederland Bayonet with WA519 & serial # 2223. Again there is no Stamped SS Property Mark only the addition of the SS Nederland Division added to the front grip. Bayonet has matching scabbard. Frog has a hilt strap, manufacturer's stamp & 1943 date. Also comes with a portapee in orange & silver.

This is another example of a WA Horster Bayonet being supplied directly to the Waffen SS.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Could you get some dimensions using a micrometer and calipers. This could at least give us a stake in the ground so as to compare known blanks to the SS blanks.

Richard K

Richard,

Why don’t you go first. With some really good comprehensive pictures of all of the blank bayonets that you want to know about. So that we can know that we are discussing the same production series (I have both early and late to accommodate you). And if you put something like a small piece of masking tape where you are measuring. It would let me know exactly the locations that you want measured.

As for the 1943 bayonet with the emblem added to the front grip. Is it pinned, glued, or?

Best Regards, FP

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In regards to the #1 SS Bayonet, this is what I have found:
1. There is no number on the crossguard.
2. There is no serial # in the grips.
-there should be by blankos
3. Both grips are marked WA 218.
- so Your piece has grips from a Wehrmacht bayonet, and from Elite Diamant directly, as we known that Diamant ended production in 1941, this is missmatched piece
4. Flashguard is numbered: #05823.
-flash is too from other piece
thats means for me the piece is a rework probably postwar, so the SS stamps are problematic too.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/30/2010 11:43 AM.
AndyB #233952 11/30/2010 11:33 AM
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"This is another example of a WA Horster Bayonet being supplied directly to the Waffen SS. 43 asw, with insignia in grip."You should read a manual of Reibert or other german manuals, to soldier was forbidden a make any changes or upgrades on the material that he got, so any emblems added to grips or similar things are with high possibility made postwar by owner or Gis to make it better his bringback. The dress piece KS98 is other story as buyed privately it could be upgraded. So this piece were army piece and could go to W-SS formation certainly, but this emblem proofs nothing. Important like mentioned FP is how is there prepared.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/30/2010 11:42 AM.
AndyB #233953 11/30/2010 11:49 AM
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"In the SS collector community, it is said that WKC & Horster furnished bayonet blanks to the SS."
In the bayonet community that is much more larger as the SS coll.community, is no similar information. Because the blanks were by majority of firms obtained by forgerys directly, the producers only mashined the bayonets and completed it. So Hoerster and WKC certainly produced blankos, i believe WKC stamped the mark there, but it was delivered to SS finished bayonets. The assembling in camps is a not real story, but refurbishment or reworking could be realised certainly.


Last edited by AndyB; 11/30/2010 11:49 AM.
AndyB #233957 11/30/2010 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
In regards to the #1 SS Bayonet, this is what I have found:
1. There is no number on the crossguard.
2. There is no serial # in the grips.
-there should be by blankos
3. Both grips are marked WA 218.
- so Your piece has grips from a Wehrmacht bayonet, and from Elite Diamant directly, as we known that Diamant ended production in 1941, this is missmatched piece
4. Flashguard is numbered: #05823.


-flash is too from other piece
thats means for me the piece is a rework probably postwar, so the SS stamps are problematic too.


Andy,

I appreciate your opinion but for you to make a judgement call that since the flashguard was numbered that it is a postwar rework and that the SS property staamp is problematic. I do not agree with your opinion. It is again based on no substantiating facts & or documentation. Usable parts were not thrown away, they were used. Without even seeing the SS Bayonet, you can tell it is a postwar rework & a fake. Whow!!!

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FP,

In regards to the SS Nederland Bayonet, I have never taken the grips off. Did not want to damage the piece. The SS Nederland device is inlaid into the grip. At some period of time, I will atempt to remove the grips to see how it is retained.

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FP,

I shall try to measure some of the blanko SS bayonet blades so that we can perhaps determine the manufacturer.

Richard K

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Andy,

In regards to your statement concerning that there are regulations governing the use and modification of equipment, I would like to see the SS manual and or documentation for what you are talking about.

1. Saw tooth bayonets were outlawed by the Genieva Convention; however the SS/VT & SS/TV continued to use them.

2. Did you see anything in the SS Bayonet Regulations regarding the Stamping of KL Property marks in the grips?

3. As per the SS Nederland Bayonet, did you consider that it might be a divisional directive, or a batallion directive to have the SS Nederland Insignia inserted into the bayonet grips. The SS Nederland bayonet could also be for the color guard & or Traditions group.

As I said, I had to purchase the tunic, belt, and bayonet. The owner collector would not split the group.

Richard K

AndyB #233964 11/30/2010 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
"In the SS collector community, it is said that WKC & Horster furnished bayonet blanks to the SS."
In the bayonet community that is much more larger as the SS coll.community, is no similar information. Because the blanks were by majority of firms obtained by forgerys directly, the producers only mashined the bayonets and completed it. So Hoerster and WKC certainly produced blankos, i believe WKC stamped the mark there, but it was delivered to SS finished bayonets. The assembling in camps is a not real story, but refurbishment or reworking could be realised certainly.

Andy

I can agree with the majority of your statement. However; if the work camps were fabricating gun parts and working on guns they could surely do the same to bayonets.

We are close and differing only in the definition of the terms assembly & rework of bayonets in the work camps.

Richard K




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Denny,

I am back at work today and have brought in some items to get pictures of. Hope to have items for you to post this afternoon,

Richard K

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Thats easy way because we have the information, we have the largest dbase in world same as Arnaud has the largest picturial online collection of the world. Our members already examined the blankos, as You got a offer from FP to commpare the items, i already have 2 pcs of blanko too, early and late production.
Your piece blanko has got a other production flashguard and the grips are from prewar Diamant bayonet, as You known already by reworks were bayonet parts new rennumbered. Anyway to this time are similar blankos without WaA reported with plastic grips not with wood, because of date of assembling.I know about more Portugal contract bayonet already faked wiht DH and SSZZA stamps.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/30/2010 06:08 PM.
AndyB #233971 11/30/2010 06:12 PM
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The camp when assembled bayonets couldnt give there WKC stamp as mentioned before. WKC stamp was given to already mashined blank. So when they got blanks from forgery it were unmarked only some special stamps could be found on tang probably.

AndyB #233972 11/30/2010 06:21 PM
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In regards to your statement concerning that there are regulations governing the use and modification of equipment, I would like to see the SS manual and or documentation for what you are talking about.
Sorry but i will not discuss about this, Do You was in army in reality?, You could change Your uniform or move the bayonet position on belt or add or engraving on M16 bayonet Your girls name? What are You talking about. Do You know anything about german army? There is a basic manual of a soldier in WW2 named Reibert, there is clearly described every change is forbidden, and should be payed by cash or jail, no sharpening or bringing any emblems or similar items. As mentioned in previous SS was a elite group of NS Party, so the strenght and disciplin was even stronger as by army.
1. Saw tooth bayonets were outlawed by the Genieva Convention; however the SS/VT & SS/TV continued to use them.
- all bayonets with sawbacks on SG84/98 postwar are fakes, that is from german collectors that have the information, only sawbacks could be find on items like FW dress piece or DRK hauer
2. Did you see anything in the SS Bayonet Regulations regarding the Stamping of KL Property marks in the grips?
-You wouldnt start this thread when a SS regulation existed
3. As per the SS Nederland Bayonet, did you consider that it might be a divisional directive, or a batallion directive to have the SS Nederland Insignia inserted into the bayonet grips. The SS Nederland bayonet could also be for the color guard & or Traditions group.
- thats collectors would like believe, in true is not real, for adding emblems there were dress uniform and KS98 dress piece bayonet

AndyB #233974 11/30/2010 06:36 PM
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I already see on german or russian forum each week a new fakes, the SS are already the top runners, so my opinion about one real to nine fakes is already obsolete. Yesterday on a german show added a new collector ask about a sawback piece. The piece is clearly fake sawback, same as the piece is missmatch with missmatched flashguard and unserialed grips. The best thing is the untouched scabbard. The piece was upgraded from a export contract.

Scan10133.JPG (70.68 KB, 168 downloads)
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AndyB #233977 11/30/2010 06:53 PM
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"I shall try to measure some of the blanko SS bayonet blades so that we can perhaps determine the manufacturer."
The inspectors of WaA have rules to accept bayonets, so the measurement of blades are not important here, the special stamping on tang of blade on locking nut, or mashinig spures could be help by deciphering, and only by side by side comparison. But anyway its believed that only the largest producers could realised a larger blanko production. So from this, they are candidates - Hoerster, WKC, Eickhorn,Coppel and probably P.Weyersberg.

AndyB #233995 11/30/2010 10:44 PM
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Andy,

In regards to the SS blanko with the renumbered flashguard,it is your opinion that it is not correct for the SS. Numbered parts may not be correct for the Portugal Contract which I know nothing of. However,the SS acceptance standards may not have been bothered with a numbered functional part that you could not see. Do you have or could you show us a copy of such an SS procurement document?

Richard Kuchta

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