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AndyB #233742 11/27/2010 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
Here are other problematic pieces as mentioned before the SS property stamp should be not stamped on WaA proofed bayonets as they were army contracts.
-41ddl is a normal contract, serialed and proofed by WaA, i dont know what is there stamped as its not a rework it should be nothing there, no SS or DH
-S/174G, in e range should have a wood grips, as there is a early army proof its same as previous, frog has any stamps? maker or dating? Its a 1935 production, so no way that it went to SS early prewar period. As they used commerzial contracts.
-Vz.24 marked on pommel are not serialed but this are unit marks, has nothing to do with serial numbers, this was the reason why i answered some years ago that this number couldnt be a assembly number of the grips.
-i believe You should make home a dbase of Your SS items, to firstly have a source where it came from, from what a collector or country, exact described before it could be lost the info, because these are important information
- other point it should be exact observed for variation of DH stamps, and SS numbers, why are there stamped or engraved on crossguard and why on pommels, because SS worked in exact timelines
-to the 9. "The Bayonet is also SS Property marked with a metal stamp. Same type found on rifles." thats the point that we could not have a same opinion,You know about rifles with DH, but they are in majority a short time period reworks and You believe that the stamp were used on bayonets post 1934(WuK) to late war COF43, all the time of the 3R. This is the problem. I believe there dont exist rifles post 1939 so marked. You should go to Gunboard forum, as there are experts on rifles. And compare the stamps with rifles picture there.Because the rifles are the key to bayonets. Bayonets were used primarily with rifles. to sample the KZL rifles K98k made by bnz or other firms by labor workers and in reality property of SS, were only single rune stamped on reciever and have no DH or SS in circle or any acountability numbers. So it looks like the most stamps DH and SS are already on bayonets?

I agree 100% with you on creating a data base with all of the details on each bayonet. Believe it or not I started one quite awhile ago and need to do a good updating. I have also recorded documentation from all of my fellow SS weapons collectors. Serial numbers, Accountabiliy numbers, KZ Accountability, etc.

Richard K


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Thats the reason why i mentioned a possible SS contract, other point is that we have already a original papers found by one documents collector that a member SS HJ division in later 1944 wore a WKC blanko bayonet.
To 41ddl, i already mentione that was SS equiped with commerzial material to this time and since 1940/41 there are captured material firstly and normal Army material used, as WaA was accepted by SS as equal proof and useable by SS units, about this exist books about SS. I personally have here only one and its a slovak translate of Christopher Ailsby book about non german SS units, named "Hitlers Renegates", they mentioned a totally independence (material and technical) of Army as a Party organisation in early pre war years. To sample the Totenkopf division had a swear realised in Prague in late 1940 and was to 2/3 equiped with czechoslovak material. Is from the book !Prague under the Hakenkreuz!.
Other point is we have a dbase of 14000 98k bayonet samples, no to this time real bayonet was found with WaA together confirmed with SS stamps.
And lastly Do You have a documents about that Your SS marked 41ddl or other WaA marked pieces are real? You dont pictured the marking on the piece, but already talk about it as unreworked.So for me no way that a SS stamps should be on a unreworked WaA proofed army piece.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/27/2010 09:44 PM.
AndyB #233770 11/28/2010 03:13 AM
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Andy,

In your database of over 14,000 bayonets how many of them are SS? How many SS TV? How many SS VT? How many are Waffen SS Bayonets?

Richard K

AndyB #233772 11/28/2010 03:36 AM
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Andy,

I just took out my SS 84/98 that was used by the 'Frw Legion Nederland". The description is as follows:

1. ASW Maker
2. 43 dated
3. Serial #2223
4. Letter n
5. Matching Scabbard
6. Portapee has a Orange and Silver Ball; White Stem, Silver Strap. In SS Tie.
7.Frog dated 1943
8. Frog Maker Marked: KVZ
9. Bayonet in Excellent ++ condition
10. Bayonet contains the Nederland SS Insignia in Silver
11. WA 519

There has been no rework other than adding the Nederland SS Insignia.

Horster bayonet was issued to "Frw Legion Nederland".

Extremely rare bayonet. Only 1 known. Purchased from SS Collector in Europe along with Tunic & Belt.


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Forum Members,

I have provided numerous SS Marked Bayonets with WAs. Because of the dating of some of these bayonets they would have to be battfield salvaged bayonets that were given SS Property Markings.

Other SS Bayonets with WAs and dating would have to be direct contract supply.

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Andy,

You state that the SS used commercial contracts for bayonets early on. Could you please provide the documentation to substantiate that statement.

It is known that the SS Weapons Work Camps assembled rifles, pistols & bayonets. The Camps assembled bayonets mainly from rejected blades. They also refurbished WW1 leftover/surplus bayonets & leather accessories. It is also said that WKC was a Jewish owned company whose owners ended up in the camps and their factories were taken over & run by the SS. I have more SS bayonets with WKC markings than any other type.

Richard K

AndyB #233777 11/28/2010 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
Thats the reason why i mentioned a possible SS contract, other point is that we have already a original papers found by one documents collector that a member SS HJ division in later 1944 wore a WKC blanko bayonet.
To 41ddl, i already mentione that was SS equiped with commerzial material to this time and since 1940/41 there are captured material firstly and normal Army material used, as WaA was accepted by SS as equal proof and useable by SS units, about this exist books about SS. I personally have here only one and its a slovak translate of Christopher Ailsby book about non german SS units, named "Hitlers Renegates", they mentioned a totally independence (material and technical) of Army as a Party organisation in early pre war years. To sample the Totenkopf division had a swear realised in Prague in late 1940 and was to 2/3 equiped with czechoslovak material. Is from the book !Prague under the Hakenkreuz!.
Other point is we have a dbase of 14000 98k bayonet samples, no to this time real bayonet was found with WaA together confirmed with SS stamps.
And lastly Do You have a documents about that Your SS marked 41ddl or other WaA marked pieces are real? You dont pictured the marking on the piece, but already talk about it as unreworked.So for me no way that a SS stamps should be on a unreworked WaA proofed army piece.


Andy,

From your experience with SS Bayonets, what type of property mark should be on the 41ddl and where should it be.

Richard K

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Andy,

Did you find WA 88 for the S/174G SS Bayonet?


Richard K

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Richard,

It has to be early morning in Europe, so I think that it will be tomorrow at the earliest before Andy could possibly get back to you. “88” I believe is seen on some Solingen made bayonets from that period. And Andy would be the one that I would go to myself for confirmation.

You’ve mentioned a number of bayonets that use different ways to indicate SS ownership in your postings. With some of the bayonets that I’ve owned or seen, I know from personal experience that it’s not always easy to tell a refinished one from an original. But with only a verbal description, quite frankly I don’t know what you have. Because sometimes what looks like an original from a distance. Turns out to be a rework when seen closer up.

Best Regards, FP

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"In your database of over 14,000 bayonets how many of them are SS? How many SS TV? How many SS VT? How many are Waffen SS Bayonets?"
there is not a real bayonet confirmed that have SS property stamp and WaA on same bayonet, i unfortunally dont know what is the difference between SS TV and SS VT or W SS, Could You explain it? But in dbase are about 100 faked SS markings, thats the point.Of them about 80 are etched on blade or have added insignia on pommel or grip.
You provided some of SS marked bayonets and WaA marked, but for me are this engraved DH problematic, it would be nice to see the mentioned stamped DH with lazy S on the Elite Diamant 38 bayonet.
To Your asking for documents, i already give You one book for looking, but as enough books are already on market about the early SS You should look in them. There is enough material.
-"It is also said that WKC was a Jewish owned company whose owners ended up in the camps and their factories were taken over & run by the SS." here You are total wrong, there was other Jewish owned company and the firm was here already mentioned, You should look to Your material. WKC was the only firm that used the sutterlin font which was by SS preffered, so WKC was probably a very tight with SS in cooperation.
-"There has been no rework other than adding the Nederland SS Insignia."
to 43 asw, this is a normal WaA contract piece, that could be certainly used by a SS units,i assume it should have a wood grips, when it was added the insignia i dont know, by soldier were this normally forbidden, but i known about more WKC blankos that have added DH in to grips, so it could be done by soldier but it could be added postwar by Gi? As You not posted any other info or picture is no possible say for me more.
-To E/88 is observed in 1935 it should be probably under grips have earlier E/77 as there was a switch period, exist a possibilty that there is a E/68 but the stamp was not so clear that it could be missreaded, without any pictures from You is not anything more to say.
-41 ddl with WaA shouldnt have any SS stamp when not reworked in anyway, but i believe too by rework it was not property stamped.We have in dbase 120 bayonets listed in 41ddl no one has any SS marking.All have WaA883.
Please dont add full my answer by responding because these thread would be really long. thanks,best regards,Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/28/2010 01:27 PM.
AndyB #233796 11/28/2010 05:06 PM
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Andy,

Thank you for sharing the information on your 14,000 bayonet database that does not contain any original SS Bayonets.

I have asked simple and very basic questions about SS bayonets in general and more specific basic questions about 98/05 bayonets. The questions that I asked could be readily addressed by a non advanced collector of SS bayonets. You ask for pictures and data, then you critique my collection, and tell me you have problems with what you have been shown and told. You tell me things are not correct such, as SS property marks on WA bayonets. You are critiquing SS bayonets and do not know the difference between a SS/VT; SS/TV; and Waffen SS Bayonet. Can you see my point! I have a problem with your expertise on SS marked bayonets. You ask me what kind of property marking is on a particular bayonet and then you tell me you have a problem with it. I have asked you what type of property marking should be on a particular bayonet and located where and you can not tell me. I like sharing my collection with the forum and making them more knowledgeable from my focused years of collecting but Andy I sometimes have a problem providing information to you in a one way direction.Your statements to me come across in a very direct and opinionated manner. "It is the SS Elite, they would never stand for so many variations." Andy, do you think that I need your blessing on my collection? I do not think so. Some of my collector friends have sent me E-mails concerning the thread and have pointed out that you come across with a predetermined opinions not based on SS Bayonet Expertise. The current procedure of show me your SS Bayonets and I will tell you if they are original or not is not taking this thread in the direction that it needs to go in. I appreciate and respect your opinions but we need to answer alot of questions that exist. We have not even scratched the surface of SS Bayonets and collecting. I have gleemed some of the best SS bayonets from the major collections in the US and Europe and it is now time to obtain the documentation and facts that go with thes bayonets.
I appreciate all of the E-mails that I have received from interested collectors concerning specific bayonets, bayonets in their collection, and leads on SS bayonets for sale. Please do not be afraid to discuss your questions in the thread.

The SS bayonet discussion started with the white frog thread. I am still trying to get some pictures of items while I am at home. I will definitely post my two LAH white rigs: one with a 84/98 bayonet and one with a 98/05 bayonet. I shall also try to post the pictures of the SS property marks found on rifles.

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Gentlemen,

This will be ultra brief as I have to be somewhere this morning. I have a question about bayonet frogs that is more directed to Richard. How many of the ‘tropical’ types (canvas/webbing) in your collection are SS marked? And what are the other types besides those shown so far?

I hope that everyone has a good day, and I’ll be back this afternoon.

Thanks, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Gentlemen,

This will be ultra brief as I have to be somewhere this morning. I have a question about bayonet frogs that is more directed to Richard. How many of the ‘tropical’ types (canvas/webbing) in your collection are SS marked? And what are the other types besides those shown so far?

I hope that everyone has a good day, and I’ll be back this afternoon.

FP,

I do not have any SS Tropical Frogs and I have never seen any in the collections that I have had a chance to view. However; they could very well exist. Why not?

The following are the types of SS frogs in my collection:

1. WW1 98/05 Frog SS Property Marked

2. 98/05 Camp Manufactured Frog; SS Property Marked

3. 98/05 Period Manufactured Frog; SS Property Marked

4. 98/05 White Ersatz Leather Frog; Manufacturer's Stamp & Dated 1939; SS Property Marked

5. WW1 84/98 Bayonet Frog; SS Property Marked

6. 84/98 Camp Manufactured Frog; SS Property Marked

7. 84/98 Camp manufactured Frog; Unmarked

8. 84/98 Period Manufactured Frog; MFG STAMP; SS Property Stamp.

9. 84/98 White Frog; Manufactured by A. Fisher 1938; SS Property Marked.

10. Original VZ-24 Bayonet Frog; SS Property Marked.

11. VZ-24 Camp Manufactured Bayonet Frog; SS Property Marked.

12. KS 84/98 Bayonet Frog; SS RZM Marked

13. KS 84/98 Bayonet Frog; Unmarked

* SS TV Frogs will sometimes have Standarte Markings as well as dates in addition to SS Property Mark


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"You are critiquing SS bayonets and do not know the difference between a SS/VT; SS/TV; and Waffen SS Bayonet" sorry i would like the hear the other members, maybe they have the explanation, as i already saw only few real SS bayonets, and they were same marked i believe they were TKV marked.
I dont asnwered the question about SG98/05 because i didnt saw any so i could not say anything to this part of SS bayonets.
Unfortunally the bayonets as VZ.24 or some of the WaA marked i have problem with the SS markings, i offered my opinion, is Your right dont believe me, but i have mentioned some facts that were not accepted but is clear described in books.
You mentione some items but will not bring details. so what is the the reason of the discussion? I didnt started the thread about SS items,but i could offer my opinion as its a open forum, i have nothing against You and respect that You are SS collector, but to sample i have got answers about the Mauser pistol from really experts of the material, they mentioned no real possibilty as it private buyed weapon much earlier made as SS were formed.
best regards,Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/28/2010 08:30 PM.
AndyB #233809 11/28/2010 09:36 PM
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Andy,

Please understand what I am saying. Some of the bayonets we are talking about have Property Stamps that you have never seen. Some of these stamps are similar to what you have been shown by me but are variants and are stamped in different locations. You continue to state that specific bayonets are not original "your opinion" based on no credible documentation. You are critiquing things that you have never seen and are making value judgements as to originality.

I have pulled a Waffen SS WKC Camp bayonet to talk about next.

Richard K






Rich

AndyB #233810 11/28/2010 09:38 PM
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I already offered here some fake pictures same as one blanko piece i dont see unfortunally no other responses from other members, only FP and Joe W.,it would be nice to have other members opinion? Maybe only i am so sceptical about the items. But without pictorial evidence is probably hard to make a desicion, You posted here info about 40 SS bayonets but pictured are only few of them. When someone will a really correct discussion about some marking, it must be offered, but when is no possible to offer because the fakers, then what for reason has this thread? It brings only half or uncomplete information.
To Your answer - i already saw in my collecting years thousand of bayonets, so am very sceptical same as it were confirmed SS used bayonets, because W-SS were fighting here in Slovakia, and no one was property marked. I asked You for lazy S picture as i saw a really correct lazy S for confirmation,You could send it private when not add here. Its the one that i could compare. As mentioned before You should ask the sources where You came the mix WaA and SS marked bayonets, from what a area they came?

Last edited by AndyB; 11/28/2010 09:46 PM.
AndyB #233812 11/28/2010 10:01 PM
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Andy,

You will get the pictures that you requested.

Richard K

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Forum Members,

It has been discussed many times as to what part WKC actually played in the manufacturing and supply of SS bayonets. This particular SS WKC Bayonet I believe to be a camp assembled Waffen SS Bayonet. The description of this bayonet is as follows:

1. WKC Marked Blade

2. Rough grind on blade

3. Minimum polish on blade

4. 85% / 90% blue on blade

5. Marks on tang: Large H; Large Ar; #5 on oppsite side of tang.

6. No WAs

7. SS Property Mark: Stamped Runes 2 over TK rotated.

8. Accountability #: 368. Looks pantagraphed engraved.

9. Blanko Scabbard with pantagraped engraved 368.

10. Grips: Wood / Camp Made

11. Grips Marked: 1941 & Runes

Ready for questions!

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I dont see the pictures of Your piece, but already have problem with the grips, how You could say its a camp made grips?
secondly Your bayonet was made in 1943/44 period when matching how it could have a 1941 grip?
There is no evidence of assembling bayonets in camps, only of rifles. As stamped by WKC why it should be assembled in camp?

AndyB #233821 11/28/2010 11:48 PM
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Andy,

What documentation are you referring to when you state that no bayonets were made in the camps?

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Andy,

I said that I believed that this was a camp assembled bayonet.

When grips contain the markings such as are in these grips, they are considered camp grips. Either made from scratch or reworked.

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Andy,

How did you determine the mfg date of the WKC blade?


Richard K

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Andy,

Were you able to match up the WA 88 with the S/174G?

Richard K

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nr.1 because there is well reported production of rifles but not of bayonets, the main produced rifle of camps K98k modell are already the late Kriegsmodell modell, that in majority werent equiped with bayonet slot, read the book i already mentioned in previous mails, in Germany there was enough bayonet producers
nr.2 i dont know what for marking is for camp rework? the runes and 1941 date?
nr3 as You offered the rough finish and tang marking, there no possible that Your piece was made earlier as 1943
nr.4 i already answered the question, without picture no possible to say, as it could be no 88 but 68, anyway both are reported by WKC.
Anyway when stamped by WKC blanko it went to NS party with or wout the additional SS stamps.And it was made by WKC no in camps.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy,

How did you determine the mfg date of the WKC blade?


Richard K

Richard,

Thanks for the information as regards the tropical frogs and the listing. What is a little confusing though, is that you don't seem to make a distinction between the VA and some of the other marks, seeming to treat them equally. And one of the ways I use to date the commercial bayonets is to compare them with dated military production. Side by side, using the date and letter block.

Best Regards, FP

AndyB #233831 11/29/2010 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: AndyB
nr.1 because there is well reported production of rifles but not of bayonets, the main produced rifle of camps K98k modell are already the late Kriegsmodell modell, that in majority werent equiped with bayonet slot, read the book i already mentioned in previous mails, in Germany there was enough bayonet producers
nr.2 i dont know what for marking is for camp rework? the runes and 1941 date?
nr3 as You offered the rough finish and tang marking, there no possible that Your piece was made earlier as 1943
nr.4 i already answered the question, without picture no possible to say, as it could be no 88 but 68, anyway both are reported by WKC.
Anyway when stamped by WKC blanko it went to NS party with or wout the additional SS stamps.And it was made by WKC no in camps.


You expressed your opinions and I do not agree with any of them. Bayonets were beng assembled using rejected parts that would not meet the quality specifications of the army.

Grips as I mentioned are quite frequently found on reworked and or assembled bayonets.

I mentioned early on that I have 2 consecutive numbered SS bayonets that are phosphate finished. They are salvaged bayonets that have been scrubbed. The SS property mark was on before the finish was applied. Bayonets have camp grips dated 1945. Bayonets were taken from the Wobbelin (SS Weapons Work Camp) Concentration Camp near Hagenow, Germany in May of 1945 by PFC Walther F. Dunn of the 552nd H.P. Bn B Co.

The serial numbers of these bayonets are:1236 & 1237. He also got a rifle with srial #51342. Rifle was completely refurbished. The bayonets were never issued.

There were work camps in Germany where the SS had the skilled slave labor work on weapons.

Andy you need some new books.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy,

How did you determine the mfg date of the WKC blade?


Richard K

Richard,

Thanks for the information as regards the tropical frogs and the listing. What is a little confusing though, is that you don't seem to make a distinction between the VA and some of the other marks, seeming to treat them equally. And one of the ways I use to date the commercial bayonets is to compare them with dated military production. Side by side, using the date and letter block.

Best Regards, FP

FP,

Please explain your question again. I am getting tired and need to refuel. Will try to explain once I understand better.

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FP,

Please explain th VA as to the other marks? Still confused.

Richard K

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Richard,

I’m sorry if I confused you, it was not a question it was a statement. With different frogs having different characteristics, that seemed to me from the list, to be lumped together as being the same. Also, thanks for the additional information on the two 1945 bayonets. I take it from your description that they applied the dates to the grip exteriors, instead of the usual places like blades and scabbards? And the same for the serial numbers, or are they in the usual locations?

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

There is nothing similiar to any of the other SS Bayonets. As we had discussed at different times, time was crucial for fabricating weapons at the end of the war. We now have bayonets and scabbards that have the manufacturers codes as well as the serial numbers and dates removed. Blades look to be unpolished but heavy coating of phospate looks beautiful. On the tang of the 1237 SS bayonet, the old serial number of 9718 remains. On the tang of the 1236 SS bayonet, you find the old serial number 5738 and a large H and 6. The WAs have been scrubbed from the pommel. Inside of the new grips is a new geometry style, full frontal TK; serial # and 45 date. Yes, the bayonet is SS Property Marked.

Why put this much rework into a bayonet in the final days of the war? This question needs to be answered? The quality of workmanship exhibited in these two bayonets is better than anything I have observed prior on SS bayonets.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Richard,

I’m sorry if I confused you, it was not a question it was a statement. With different frogs having different characteristics, that seemed to me from the list, to be lumped together as being the same. Also, thanks for the additional information on the two 1945 bayonets. I take it from your description that they applied the dates to the grip exteriors, instead of the usual places like blades and scabbards? And the same for the serial numbers, or are they in the usual locations?

FP,

The SS Frogs are a study in themselvs. I gave you styles and groupings. But the frogs further break down into sub groups of Property Marks, Locations, dates, & serial numbers, and my favorite SS TV Standarte Property Mark.

Richard K

Best Regards, FP

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Richard,

No offense, but now I'm the one who is confused. All of the external markings were removed. But the serial numbers, 1945 dates, and Death's Head markings are all on the interiors of the grips? With new manufacture grips that still show the milling marks from when they were machined. And the bayonet from the outside looks like it's not numbered? You also say that it is a heavy phosphate. Can you identify the type?

With workmanship that is better than anything you have ever seen previously. I don't know why so much work would be put into them either, and I guess it will remain a mystery as to just what you have been looking at.

Best Regards, FP

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Fp,

In regards to SS Bayonet Frogs, I left out the sub-category of hilt straps.

Fact:

1. 90% of the SS TV bayonets in my collection have hilt straps.

2. 12% of the SS VT bayonets in my collection have hilt straps.

3. Less than 10% of the Waffen SS Bayonets have hilt straps.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

The SS Frogs are a study in themselvs. I gave you styles and groupings. But the frogs further break down into sub groups of Property Marks, Locations, dates, & serial numbers, and my favorite SS TV Standarte Property Mark.

Richard K



Richard,

Just so we have a common basis of understanding. Which of the ones listed below are the "VA" marked frogs?

1. WW1 98/05 Frog SS Property Marked

2. 98/05 Camp Manufactured Frog; SS Property Marked

3. 98/05 Period Manufactured Frog; SS Property Marked

4. 98/05 White Ersatz Leather Frog; Manufacturer's Stamp & Dated 1939; SS Property Marked

5. WW1 84/98 Bayonet Frog; SS Property Marked

6. 84/98 Camp Manufactured Frog; SS Property Marked

7. 84/98 Camp manufactured Frog; Unmarked

8. 84/98 Period Manufactured Frog; MFG STAMP; SS Property Stamp.

9. 84/98 White Frog; Manufactured by A. Fisher 1938; SS Property Marked.

10. Original VZ-24 Bayonet Frog; SS Property Marked.

11. VZ-24 Camp Manufactured Bayonet Frog; SS Property Marked.

12. KS 84/98 Bayonet Frog; SS RZM Marked

13. KS 84/98 Bayonet Frog; Unmarked

* SS TV Frogs will sometimes have Standarte Markings as well as dates in addition to SS Property Mark


Thanks, FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Richard,

No offense, but now I'm the one who is confused. All of the external markings were removed. But the serial numbers, 1945 dates, and Death's Head markings are all on the interiors of the grips? With new manufacture grips that still show the milling marks from when they were machined. And the bayonet from the outside looks like it's not numbered? You also say that it is a heavy phosphate. Can you identify the type?

FP,

Let me try to clear up your confusion:

1. My opinion is that these SS Bayonets initially started off as battlefield salvaged bayonets.

2. The orignal serial numbers, manufacturer codes, dates were removed from the bayonet and scabbards. On one scabbard, I can see just a little bit of the manufacturer's code showing when using a magnifying glass.

3. New serial numbers were applied to both the bayonet and scabbard. Very precise metal stamp.

4. SS Property stamp was applied to the bayonet.

5. Internal grips contain 45 date, serial #, & TK.

6. The phospate is very dark, not the light gray.


With workmanship that is better than anything you have ever seen previously. I don't know why so much work would be put into them either, and I guess it will remain a mystery as to just what you have been looking at.

Best Regards, FP


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FP,

I said that their was also a rifle taken at the same time from the depot. The owner would not part with the rifle at the time and would only sell me the bayonets. However, I was allowed to look the rifle over. It was still covered in protective hardened,grease. Rifle was 41 dated and had perfect blue. I could not see any SS Property Stamps.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

In regards to SS Bayonet Frogs, I left out the sub-category of hilt straps.

Fact:

1. 90% of the SS TV bayonets in my collection have hilt straps.

2. 12% of the SS VT bayonets in my collection have hilt straps.

3. Less than 10% of the Waffen SS Bayonets have hilt straps.

Richard Kuchta


Richard,

I’m not at all questioning what you have in your collection. But based on what I’ve seen in photos and other documentation, that number seems like it might be a little ‘light’ (undercounted) for the tie straps. In that group of Waffen SS frogs are you including the “shorty” frogs (made for the folding shovel)? Or just the standard type?

Also, my thanks for the update on the type of phosphate finish.

Best Regards. FP

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WKC would never accept that there is their trademark on a assembled piece, anyway there is no evidence of assembling bayonets in camps, reworking is other possibility. As Your piece is late war, the condition You could compare with my attached piece, the grips should be red colored plastic, certainly the grips could be not 1941 dated by matching piece.
The 45 dated piece are in reality a 43/44 pieces reworked there maybe,as You mentione 2 WaA removed on pommel it must be early 44 maximum, the consecutive numbers could be nice but without seeing is hard to say, what for grips are there? Wood?
I assume as in plastic is hard to give any additional stamps?
The pieces are in reality 45 reworked not produced.Thats all. It would be nice to see the remains of producer marking. best regards.Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/29/2010 12:46 PM.
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FP,

In regards to the SS marked frogs, I went over the frogs again this this morning and came up with the same results.

I did not count the KS Frogs because it would be difficult to group them.

I did not count the shorties because I have none.

I did not count the SS Police Bayonet Frogs because the population is too small and could be easily skewed.

However, I do agree with your statement concerning hilt retainers on Waffen SS Frogs. If you look at all of the pictures of Waffen SS Men you see alot of bayonets with hilt straps. My collection does not reflect that fact. I could have excluded SS Carried Bayonets if they did not have the SS Property stamp. I would have never recognised the bayonets as being SS. It stands to reason that at some point in time that the SS was receiving WA / Army bayonets, rifles & equipment.

I have an interesting bayonet that may have some bearing on your point, FP. My bayonet ia a 1940 cul; serial #4602; letter W; WA 883. The scabbard is matching. The bayonet came in a SS Property marked frog. This bayonet is recorded on a capture paper along with a SS Property marked 98/05; Accountability #29 and a SS belt & buckle & medals. If this bayonet was not in a SS marked frog, I would have not even considered it and would have passed it up.This group of items that I have just described were sent home by Pvt. Edward T. Samuelson on 3 Sept, 1945 in a German wooden instrument box which I also have.

Richard K

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FP & Forum Members,

Fact:

Early SS/TV & SS VT WW1 reissued Frogs will only be black coated on the front side. The backside will retain the original brown. It is difficult to tell this since the leather is so old now.

Richard K

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