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AndyB #233503 11/24/2010 06:19 PM
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Forum & Andy,

The Clemen & Jung SS Bayonet came from the Marino Collection in Gettysburgh, PA.

The TK & Serial number were definitely engraved. To call this a joke reflects upon the person's knowledge of the subject matter at hand. This bayonet was not reworked. It was no doubt salvaged from the battlefield. But when? The Property Stamp and Number could have been done by the field armorer. Those marks were put in a very specific place which in most cases a person making reproductions / fakes would not even concern themselves about.

Let us go back to Fred Marut's Letter. Back in the Time when the SS Horster Bayonet was purchased for $20.00 what would have been the incentive to add SS marks and sell it for the price of an average going bayonet? The Marino Bayonet dates back to the late 60s early 70s.

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Forum Members,

I heard from John Jacobi last night and he would like to participate in the Bayonet Discussion; however he can not get into the GDC. Is there someone who can possibly help him.

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FORUM,

Comparison of the Milton SS WuK 27 having the TK RUNES as to the SS HORSTER having the TK RUNES 2. There is signifiance with the Runes with no number as compared to the Runes with the 2.

How were early SS VT Standartes denoted?

How were early SS TV Standartes denoted?

Richard K

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I have copies of some certificates from other members,same i have friends with SS papers and soldbuchs, same as You could look to the book Kriegsmodell from B.Karem and M.Steves and chapter 10, named Capture papers and ship home boxes, very interesting reading, there is a many certificates as US personnel didnt understand the specification of german equipment, they would not bring exact info, so there are similar desctiption:
1 german rifle, 1 german knife with scabbard, by edged weapons no details, max a number, the best described are short firearms, one certificate is for Pistol M,sn 942xxx which is probably HSc from the serial number. But from this is no possible identified a bayonet nr.467 was SS.
Do You could confirm that the collection of Your certificate was same from 1945 to 2000? have You got the 2 unknown daggers and some german medals with this bayonet?
For me not exact info for identifing a weapon.
Back to Clemen&Jung 39, as mentioned earlier the piece was a army contract. Thats the point. Is no reworked how could get it a SS KZ Guard repair fieldwork? When it was stamped there the DH and SS-1534? In war? the DH is similar to a SG84/98 WW1 of Haenckel, You believe on Haenckel it was stamped 1943? Here was very interesting what mentioned FP n his answer , have the Clemen twice DH? one on crossguard and other on pommel?
There should be exact timelines for using some of the DH stamps, i believe that exist real pieces, i assume that You have some , but i believe that You already got some problematic pieces too. best regards,Andy
PS to the Marino collection, i dont know about but the earliest SS fakes occured already 5 to 10 years after war, same as there is confirmed production of dagger postwar for US GIs as bringbacks, similar items are not real collectibles as it were not produced in III Reich period.
To Fred, i dont believe collectors could remember so exactly one thing that happened in 1970 so 40 years ago, and say yes there was a DH on pommel, Fred mentioned the piece but didnt mentione the DH, it was described later by the owner, so the piece was buyed for 20 USD and what was the price later 800USD because of one DH on pommel? Sorry thats the reason why they make fakes. Make a profit.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/24/2010 08:06 PM.
AndyB #233518 11/24/2010 08:10 PM
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Andy,

I still do not agree with you on the Capture Paper for SS Bayonet #467. This is the last that I shall address the point but I also have a Capture Paper that just states Rifle. They did not need to get into elaborate descriptions of war souvenirs being sent home.

I also have Capture Papers with the recorded serial & property numbers along with the send home box containing the 2 bayonets: 1 SS 98/05 Bayonet, 1 84/98 Bayonet in a SS marked frog, as well as a SS belt & Buckle. Nothing on the Capture Paper says anything at all about the items being SS.

You are not making any kind of sense concerning Capture Papers having detailed descriptions of War Souvenirs.

Richard K

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I hope that other members talk not only my self, as my english is terrible, when possible Richard could You answer the question of FP? are there two DH stamped on the Clemen 39 piece? Thanks.

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FP,

In regards to the two bayonets with Runes over TK they are: Paul Weyersberg and the Asterisk marked bayonet.

Richard K

AndyB #233521 11/24/2010 09:00 PM
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Andy,

In regards to the Clemen & Jung SS Bayonet you are correct in stating that it is marked as an early SS VT. I have several WKC bayonets marked as such and I believe some late SS TV bayonets.

I did not say that the Clemen & Jung was marked by a KZ guard. I stated that the item in my opinion was a battlefield pick up that was claimed by the SS and so marked in the field by the armorer who would have the company records.

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Forum,

I have sent some new pictures to Denny to post for us. The pictures are of the SS Flashlight & Carrier as well as one of my Luger Holsters. Early TK on holster is hard to see but the one on the carrier is perfect. You can see some differences between the TK on the Carrier as to Joe W Pistol Holster. Look closely.

Richard K

AndyB #233523 11/24/2010 09:20 PM
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FP,

On the Clemen & Jung there is an engraved TK, RUNES & Number on the rear crossguard as well as on the bayonet scabbard. I think that I may have a SS 98/05 done similiarly.


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Forum,

Andy brought up a good point about having a time line for the different SS Stamps. That would be good as well as helpful.

I just want to start it off with a small discussion on the Death Head / Lazy S Stamp used by the SS. We have not talked about it up to this point. However, the TK/Lazy S is found on the earliest SS Marked Bayonets (1933) to late in the 1940s. However, the stamp location and position moved all around. Stamp was used also by the SS TV.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Forum & Andy,

The Clemen & Jung SS Bayonet came from the Marino Collection in Gettysburgh, PA.

The TK & Serial number were definitely engraved. To call this a joke reflects upon the person's knowledge of the subject matter at hand. This bayonet was not reworked. It was no doubt salvaged from the battlefield. But when? The Property Stamp and Number could have been done by the field armorer. Those marks were put in a very specific place which in most cases a person making reproductions / fakes would not even concern themselves about .......... The Marino Bayonet dates back to the late 60s early 70s.

richard K

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy,

.......... I did not say that the Clemen & Jung was marked by a KZ guard. I stated that the item in my opinion was a battlefield pick up that was claimed by the SS and so marked in the field by the armorer who would have the company records.

Richard K

Richard,

First, my thanks for the clarification of the bayonets in the picture I reposted. As regards engraved markings in general. What kind of equipment would the SS armorers have needed to do the engraving in the field?

Regards, FP

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FP,

I am only expressing a technical opinion because I am not aware of the tools that the armorer actually had to use. I would assume that he would have access to a portable generator that would be capable of running a small lathe & milling machine. The armorer would also have available a drill and grinding device. If the power was available, he could use an electric pencil and or hand engraving device.

Richard K

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Richard, are these lazy S TK's associated with the P08s found with Lazy S/TK chamber markings? That has always been the term for these controversial P08s that are believed to be from WWI German assault troops.


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JoeW #233534 11/24/2010 11:21 PM
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Joe,

The Lazy S Death Head Luger has the same SS Marking as the bayonets and rifles. I have 2 of the Lugers and can post some pictures of them along with a Lazy S Marked bayonet.

There are also 2 other variant styles of Luger Markings used by the SS.

For a long time, the fakers have not got things right on faking a Lazy S Death Head Luger. Extremely easy to spot the bad ones. The fakers also make the same mistake on making bogus SS rifles.

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For Richard:

EARLY SS TK FOUND ON LUGER HOLSTERS, TOOL CARRIERS, REICHS REVOLVER HOLSTERS

Kuchta 11-24_01.jpg (49.53 KB, 187 downloads)
Kuchta 11-24_02.jpg (16.38 KB, 186 downloads)
Kuchta 11-24_03.jpg (43.67 KB, 187 downloads)
Kuchta 11-24_04.jpg (31.44 KB, 187 downloads)
Kuchta 11-24_05.jpg (54.62 KB, 186 downloads)

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #233536 11/24/2010 11:45 PM
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Kuchta 11-24_06.jpg (27.05 KB, 184 downloads)

WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #233538 11/24/2010 11:58 PM
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Joe,

You can see some differences comparing my Early TK on the Flashlight Holder to the Pistol Holster that you posted. The TKs on the luger holsters seem always to be a little distorted. This can possibly be from leather shrinkage and dryness.


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Denny,

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I am only expressing a technical opinion because I am not aware of the tools that the armorer actually had to use. I would assume that he would have access to a portable generator that would be capable of running a small lathe & milling machine. The armorer would also have available a drill and grinding device. If the power was available, he could use an electric pencil and or hand engraving device.

Richard K

Richard,

Thank you for the reply. If I can respectfully disagree for a moment, what you seem to be suggesting would I think be at a much higher echelon for a number of reasons.

Regards, FP

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BCNers and those following this post..super information thanks to all that post! Anytime SS information is posted it can become an emotional event. I personally could care less for anything SS marked but that is just me. I have seen many bayonets over the years during my surfing on the internet in the late night hours and if they had an SS stamp on it... real or fake (i never knew nor cared) i sent this lead to richard kuchta. This is what the BCN is about helping other collectors. Continue with the dialog! I was off line due to my own ignorance when the site changed but I am back thanks to Vern! Terry K appreciate your work too!!!...greetings to all! My bayonet education started with FLM, FP and Mike Welser...but be advised these guys to include Anthony Carter (RIP) learned from Jack Schrader who is still with us!!! nuff said, jcj


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John C. Jacobi #233567 11/25/2010 10:54 AM
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Nice to have here John back. To Clemen&Jung piece it looks like correct finish not refurbisher or reworked so is not a repair, only small wearing spures there.The grips were probably reworked from the details on screws counter parts. I dont know how SS would became this bayonet, and why they would stamp there a property number with this form of DH in later of war? Thats why i mentioned my doubts.
To FP info about the engraving, i believe the engraving in field is very problematic, same as time costing, every Fieldrepair work certainly have a set of digits stamp as it was in army need to restamp serials by repairing pieces, is no way for me engraving 1534 crossguards so? With dies were easy to make any reserialing, same as i believe the DH should be too stamped. By engraving each skull is a originall. That could be realised only by small numbers.best regards,Andy

John C. Jacobi #233575 11/25/2010 04:00 PM
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John,

It is good to have you back home again. Thanks again for all of those good SS Bayonets leads that worked out.

Richard K

AndyB #233604 11/25/2010 09:19 PM
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First, it’s very nice to have John back on the forum!! smile smile And while a lot of folks have mentored, done research, and made a number of substantial contributions to the collecting of bayonets. It was John who put together the forum. And got it up and running for which I am very appreciative. I’m also taking a moment here to remember the late Anthony Carter. Who was a true gentlemen. A friend to us all, and is greatly missed.

Andy has zeroed in on one of the core problems with the concept of “field” engraving. Let’s say a set of stamps in an armorers kit might have weighed one or two pounds at the outside limit. Versus at a minimum: a suitable period engraving tool, a generator, and fuel. And if you add in some very heavy machine tools. That were not made to be moved around, and might need to be re-calibrated. I think you can see where the concept might be starting to have some problems, without even looking into anything else.

I have some things to get ready for, and I hope that everyone has a very pleasant day. FP

AndyB #233607 11/25/2010 10:06 PM
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Andy & Forum,

Thank you for your opinions on the Clemen & Jung. However; I went into my showcase and pulled out the SS ZZ A2 & A4 which are both WA and maker marked. The SS ZZ A2 & A4 stamp are perfect & beautiful to look at. Why would the SS mark these 2 bayonets during the latter years of the war? It comes down to the fact that we do not know why the SS did property mark their bayonets. But they did and these pieces exist today as proof. In this thread it is hoped that we can come up with some technical answers & solutions instead of just throwing stones at a target each time I post a bayonet picture.
I just pulled out several other bayonets for comparison.

1. 1938 Elite Diamant, SN8677, WA 218, with SS Property Stamp Lazy S over TK.

2. ACS With Scales Logo, SN 9124 on the Rear Crossguard, SS Property Stamp, and Marked: 9th SS TK Standarte (NORD then Thule), Police Star on Spine with letter L. Frog is also 9th TK Marked. This bayonet came from Norway along with several other SS pieces.

We need to focus on obtaining explanations and opinions on why the bayonets are SS Property Stamped and why some have accountablity numbers and why WA issued bayonets with late dates are SS Property Stamped / engraved.


Happy Thanksgiving everyone,

Richard K

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Richard, I surely appreciate your dedication to your collecting hobby. And I appreciate the opportunity to view your varied collection. But perhaps it just comes down to whether other collectors accept your premise regarding these SS marked bayonets and other items. "It comes down to the fact that we do not know why the SS did property mark their bayonets. But they did and these pieces exist today as proof."

You have stated your premise is valid and we need to provide proof or explanation for it. Some of us would like to see the evidence before we accept the premise.


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FP,

You asked for an opinion on the hand engraving on the Clemen & Jung. I gave you an opinion based on technical experience based upon my time designing for Hart Rifles in Nespoceck, PA. This was my opinion, predicated upon gun fabrication and maintenance.

Your statement along with Andy's are only your opinions unless you have some hard facts / documents to back up what an SS armorer had to work with. The fact is the Clemen & Jung has engraved SS Markings. Are they pretty? Absolutely not. This bayonet was procurred by Mr. Marino (who had a tremendous SS collection)35 to 40 years ago. If you were a collector back then, I would almost guarantee that you did not see reproduction SS Combat Bayonets. There was no incentitive. Please see Fred Marut's letter again. The West Coast has always been ahead of the wave for Collecting WW11 German items and you didn't see fake SS Combat bayonets 35 to 40 years ago out there. As a fact, how many of you members have ever seen bayonets with the same exact markings and placements of them as I have posted? Please let me know?

Let us focus on obtainng answers to a multitude of new things that I have brought forward to the bayonet collecting society.

Richard K

JoeW #233612 11/25/2010 10:54 PM
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Joe,

What type of evidence are you talking about Joe? The property marks on the bayonets and rifles and some pistols are the same. Are you saying that that all of the SS rifles out there marked similiary are not correct because the markings can not be explained??

Are you saying that bayonets listed on capture bayonets are not legitimate?

Joe, I have the coding determined for the SS VT. I didn't find a chapter in a book that described what or how a TV item should be marked. It was detemined by obtaining a large enough population of bayonets and items that would be used along with them. It was then a matter of grouping and comparing SS marks.

Joe, as I offered before, my collection can be viewed and evaluated. Have you seen all of these same exact markings in the same locations as what has been shown?

Richard K

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Offcourse there are still problems by engraving, because FP and I already spoked on BCN old discussion about various stamping problems and technical disposition of field armorers, so same as You could read comments on Gunboard from Scott B. and and SS bogus rifles, the majority of faked rifles are engraved as the dremmel tool was easy to obtain in 20 or 30 years ago. The majority of original SS rifles, to sample the Russian captures that were on

JoeW #233618 11/25/2010 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: JWotka
Richard, I surely appreciate your dedication to your collecting hobby. And I appreciate the opportunity to view your varied collection. But perhaps it just comes down to whether other collectors accept your premise regarding these SS marked bayonets and other items. "It comes down to the fact that we do not know why the SS did property mark their bayonets. But they did and these pieces exist today as proof."

You have stated your premise is valid and we need to provide proof or explanation for it. Some of us would like to see the evidence before we accept the premise.


Richard,

Years ago on the original BCN. There was a tremendous discussion that went on back and forth for years about what were called by collectors the “breadbag” frogs. And the bayonets that they were often seen with.

And it took a lot, and I mean a lot, of discussion before some tentative conclusions were reached. Said frogs never seen in the UK (other than a few acquired from the U.S.), and in Europe only a few seen from France.

Likewise, you have stated that you have a significant amount of bayonets and frogs that are virtually unknown to a lot of the collecting world. So if the past is any guide, you should probably expect a lot of discussion.

But as Joe said, it’s going to take an examination of the items to see if we can see some kind of pattern that can be determined. Which is what helped us (the collectors) with the “breadbags”. And right now it’s an open topic with a lot of questions to be asked, and looked into and answered in turn as was the case earlier.

Best Regards, FP

PS to Andy: I have a matching original finish partially Waffenamted police (that has a noticeable manufacturing defect that does not affect its functionality) with no other external markings than a German Police Eagle on the spine.

AndyB #233619 11/25/2010 11:38 PM
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Andy,

The SS 98/05 bayonets have had accountability numbers assed to them. I have only 1 98/05 bayonet that has only a stamped property mark. There werte no serial numbers on the 98/05 bayonets. The TV & VT WW1 84/98 bayonets had accountability numbers added to them because of no serial numbers. Early TV & VT WKC bayonets had accountability numbers added to them because there were none.

As for the SS VZ bayonets, the majority were given new numbers. The VZ bayonets already had serial numbers.

There was a reason the SS gave accountability numbers to the bayonets. I myself do not have the documentation nor the block numbers and or ranges. If I did I would not be asking for the information However, I know that the numbers were repeated.

As for the engraving of the SS property stamp and accountability numbers on bayonets to be called a fake "based upon some rifle parts and or rifles that were electric penciled by a faker/crook" is absurd. That is like calling all SS daggers fakes because there are a lot of bad ones out there!

I guess all of the Navy 84/98 bayonets that have the Navy accountability number & W engraved on them would be bad also?!

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To Your previous listing:
1. 1938 Elite Diamant, SN8677, WA 218, with SS Property Stamp Lazy S over TK. -its a problematic piece because of WaA, could You provide the series letter and what the lazy S looks like?

2. ACS With Scales Logo, SN 9124 on the Rear Crossguard, SS Property Stamp, and Marked: 9th SS TK Standarte (NORD then Thule), Police Star on Spine with letter L. Frog is also 9th TK Marked. This bayonet came from Norway along with several other SS pieces. - unfortunally dont believe the already SS police piece correctly marked should have other SS unit property stamp, are the stamping engraved or stamped, any pictures avialable?
To SSZZA2,3,4 i assume from the name its a depot or the main depot marking that should be probably as accepting there? "ZeugAmt" were found on rifle barells mainly ,there exist some of clearly fakes on market already and the markings are stamped i will here bring more data tomorow. It could be only on commerzial production found not on WaA accepted army production.
To FP Your piece could be declared as blanko, which was a part of export contract probably and were used late as police. but its more a exception as a rule. I compared my dbase and police contracts of war were strictly done on commerzial marked bayonets.

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FP,

Do not get me wrong, I love the discussion on SS bayonets. There are not that many collectors out there who are familiar with them and with whom I can discuss such items.
As I stated before, the major SS weapons collectors are the most knowledgeable of the SS bayonets. My friend and long time SS collector in Arizona passed away several years ago. He was in his early 80s. I inherited many key pieces from him including 2 SS TV KZ marked bayonets.

Keep the questions comming?

Richard K

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As You mentioned the navy pieces You are right the N marked ones are engraved, but engraved through a pantograph mashine, which have exact rules because there are models of sign and digits, so the digits are same high, form and font on various bayonets and scabbards there was a discussion about it on old BCN.

AndyB #233628 11/26/2010 12:28 AM
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1. 1938 Elite Diamant, SN8677, WA 218, with SS Property Stamp Lazy S over TK. -its a problematic piece because of WaA, could You provide the series letter and what the lazy S looks like?

2. ACS With Scales Logo, SN 9124 on the Rear Crossguard, SS Property Stamp, and Marked: 9th SS TK Standarte (NORD then Thule), Police Star on Spine with letter L. Frog is also 9th TK Marked. This bayonet came from Norway along with several other SS pieces. - unfortunally dont believe the already SS police piece correctly marked should have other SS unit property stamp, are the stamping engraved or stamped, any pictures avialable?
To SSZZA2,3,4 i assume from the name its a depot or the main depot marking that should be probably as accepting there? "ZeugAmt" were found on rifle barells mainly ,there exist some of clearly fakes on market already and the markings are stamped i will here bring more data tomorow. It could be only on commerzial production found not on WaA accepted army production.
To FP Your piece could be declared as blanko, which was a part of export contract probably and were used late as police. but its more a exception as a rule. I compared my dbase and police contracts of war were strictly done on commerzial marked bayonets.

The SS TV 9 is all stamped. Your question does not make sense concerning what type of SS mark should be on it. Please explain more clearly as to what you are looking for.

Again you need to substantiate your statement that SS ZZ A2 & A4 stamps were not put on SS bayonets with WA. I would like to see this documentation. I know where these bayonets have been for the last 30 years. Have you ever heard of another or seen another SS ZZ A2 & A4 bayonet? Do you know the size of the stamp? Do you know where the stamps are located? You are prejudging something that you have never seen and have no knowledge of.

Concerning the 1938 SS Elite Diamant with WA and Lazy S over TK was mentioned so as to show that this is a possible reclaimed battlefield bayonet.It has the standard Lazy S over TK that was used on rifles and lugers.

Richard K

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AndyB #233629 11/26/2010 12:33 AM
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Andy,

You find the same type of pantograph engraving on the early SS TV & VT Bayonets.

It is extremely difficult to metal stamp a scabbard without causing defformation. A support mandrel & fixture of some sort would have to be used.

Richard Kuchta

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Joe,

In George Wheeler's book on page 160. The third bayonet down has a serial number over a "6". What does the 6 mean?

Richard K

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There is problem because the too many variations of the DH exist on Your material, as pantograghed there must be same model of DH and same font and size of digits, on Your samples are various digits and the size of DH are different. Same as the font of some digits are not real, as they are postwar, when You compare with digits of war material.So i dont like any stamping on bayonets as 9 TK marked? Other way the ACS was already serialed and proofed to police.
The marking with units was forbiden in Armyand other branches too already in 1936/7 period, the only real stamps are on frogs, on material was enough the serial number.
To Your Mauser M14 pistol i already asked on the pistol forum, like mentioned before the pistol was made in 1919/20 period on the serial range, so it was buyed privately long before Hitler formed his Schutzstaffeln. I dont believe that someone would add any property numbers on his own pistol. Same as the font of digit 1 is no possible so engraved in early 30ies.
About SSZZA marking i dont know where there are marked, but on some commerzial marked rifles were stamped on barells. There exist some fakes, as You already mentioned a normal WaA production You have it on, so i have doubts. cof43 and the other piece are already avialable for SS from Army contracts, only be rework it would be real. As we dont see any picture i couldnt say more on this. Here is a fake stamp obtained in east europe.

bajoss3.jpg (51.26 KB, 158 downloads)
Last edited by AndyB; 11/26/2010 11:43 AM.
AndyB #233652 11/26/2010 11:52 AM
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About the reclaimed bayonets, thats Your explanation as more "bayonets like Clemen39, Elite 38,S/244.36 and others was found in batlefield and refurbished by SS and then marked", i dont believe in this scenario,because the two You already offered pictures are not reworked anyway.Only the S/244 have replaced grips. By reworking should be the grips marked innerly with tang, as You known already from other bayonets. Other way the DH lazy S was realised on rifles that are not WaA proofed only commerzially marked!! I would like to see the marking on the Elite piece.
and lastly "As for the SS VZ bayonets, the majority were given new numbers. The VZ bayonets already had serial numbers." where should be the serial numbers on Vz.24 bayonets? I dont know about serialing of czechoslovak bayonets.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/26/2010 12:48 PM.
AndyB #233653 11/26/2010 02:51 PM
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Andy,

Thank you for posting the fake SS ZZ A2.

As i have stated previously, I have never seen the TK property stamp located on the ricasso and that also goes for the SS ZZ A2 & A4.

The SS ZZ A2 stamp on my bayonet is different from what you show. The fake stamp is good and if you do nt have an original to compare to you could be easily fooled.

Thank you again Andy. This picture of a reproduction bayonet will help collectors from being cheated. Good work!!!!

Richard K

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