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JoeW #233364 11/23/2010 10:12 AM
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I personally dont believe Officer of SS would wore a combat bayonet, when so a dress piece, that should be not stamped anyway. FP is right that pistols and several other equipment could be obtained privately. Combat bayonets are always part of a rifle.best regards,Andy

AndyB #233368 11/23/2010 03:58 PM
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Andy,

SS Officers wore bayonets and carried rifles so as not to attract attention to themselves by enemy snipers. There is a picture in George Wheeler's Bayonet Book of an Officer wearing a bayonet and carrying.

Richard K

AndyB #233369 11/23/2010 04:00 PM
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FP & Andy,

What documentation do you have that states Officers were not required to purchase their own sidearms?

Richard K

JoeW #233370 11/23/2010 04:19 PM
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Joe,

I have no official documentation concerning SS Police bayonets. In fact I know of no official documentation that has been found to date that pertains to SS VT Bayonets, SS TV Bayonets, and Waffen SS Baynets. If there was such information available it would have made years of research much more easy and productive.

I have been able to accumulate an SS Bayonet Population of over 120 Bayonets. I have been able to group and compare. I have been able to break out the SS VT Bayonets from the SS TV Bayonets as well as the Waffen SS Bayonets. In addition there is also the SS Foreign Bayonets and Standard SS Dress Bayonets. I have broke down the major groups into sub-groups. You can see similiar charasterics in these groupings of SS Bayonets. However; there is still alot to go to understand the coding. I have cracked the major part of the coding for the SS TV Bayonets. For this the combat belts, pouches, bread bags and canteens were all required. This analysis was predicated upon evaluating a complete known rig.

Richard Kuchta

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Andy,

Can you provide us with the SS markings that are used on the VZ rifle. The types of markings, the number of, and where located. This will be helpful as we go on.


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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP & Andy,

What documentation do you have that states Officers were not required to purchase their own sidearms?

Richard K


Richard, I think you mean the reverse? Fred, while it is generally thought by collectors/historians and supported by documented clothing regulations, that officers of the armed forces and police were required to purchase their own equipment and given a stipend for this purpose, officers of the Sicherheitspolizei were provided weapons out of a central armory. This is of course documented by the partial records of the RSHA arsenal located in the National Archives. I attach one of the record cards from this central file of a senior officer that was provided equipment: a P08 and binoculars.



Other such cards are located in the National Archives under the Records of the RFSS and Chef d. Deutschen Polizei. They have also been reproduced for the benefit of collectors. I provided some of these records concerning mostly NCOs and ordinary ranks in postings last Spring in the Firearms section of this forum.

So for this instance, we have the documented instance of officers procuring weapons from a central state source, in this case the RSHA Armory in Rauscha, rather than relying on private procurement. But we have no documentation to extend this procedure to the VT/WSS or TV. But we do know that Allegemeine SS units did maintain their own mini-arsenals.


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JoeW #233386 11/23/2010 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: JWotka
Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP & Andy,

What documentation do you have that states Officers were not required to purchase their own sidearms?

Richard K


Richard, I think you mean the reverse? Fred, while it is generally thought by collectors/historians and supported by documented clothing regulations, that officers of the armed forces and police were required to purchase their own equipment and given a stipend for this purpose, officers of the Sicherheitspolizei were provided weapons out of a central armory. This is of course documented by the partial records of the RSHA arsenal located in the National Archives. I attach one of the record cards from this central file of a senior officer that was provided equipment: a P08 and binoculars.



Other such cards are located in the National Archives under the Records of the RFSS and Chef d. Deutschen Polizei. They have also been reproduced for the benefit of collectors. I provided some of these records concerning mostly NCOs and ordinary ranks in postings last Spring in the Firearms section of this forum.

So for this instance, we have the documented instance of officers procuring weapons from a central state source, in this case the RSHA Armory in Rauscha, rather than relying on private procurement. But we have no documentation to extend this procedure to the VT/WSS or TV. But we do know that Allegemeine SS units did maintain their own mini-arsenals.


Joe,

Thank you for the documentation. This will be of help when determining if Officer purchased material had accountability numbers.

Joe , my statement about the officers having to purchase their own equipment was the way that I wanted it. It is a known fact about the directive that you posted for us. I just wanted to know if someone had something contrary.

Thanks again Joe,

Richard K

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"Joe,
Thank you for the documentation. This will be of help when determining if Officer purchased material had accountability numbers."

Rich, in this instance the officers did not purchase weapons or equipment. The requisitioned equipment was sent to the officers and receipts were signed as well as the individual inventory cards documented. Their were no accountability numbers assigned to the material. A very few number of these weapons are in collections and the only markings on them are serial numbers applied according to RSHA requirements.


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JoeW #233388 11/23/2010 07:28 PM
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Hello

I have a postcard showing SS with a K98 bayonet.
Regards
Klinge


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Denny,

I have a group of pictures ready to come through. Please post them for us.

Richard K

Klinge #233391 11/23/2010 07:59 PM
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Klinge, your photo is from a post card series about police service in the EAST. A close-up of this photo is of a member of one of the RSHA details in Poland in the time after the surrender. Notice the SD Raute (diamond) on his sleeve. These men would have received their equipment from the RSHA arsenal.

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JoeW #233395 11/23/2010 08:44 PM
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There are manuals as Reibert about equipment of army units same as about tactics in battle and various situation, the picture that is in Wheeler same as here are from combat that means situation that is special. Officer normally couldnt got rifles and combat bayonets, as it was normally in major of armies. In combat for various reasons is real using of rifles and bayonets by officers.
Same as there are directive about using of own material, should be noted in soldbuch or other papers, the commerzial pistols should be used larger as 6.35mm calibre, there was mentioned some type of pistols.
To Vz.24 rifles, when used by army and SS prior to 1942 was not reworked in anyway probably post 1942 there was clear directives by changing the configuration mainly of bayonets. I assume as post 1942 by SS were same directives as for Army,LW and KM there is no mention of adding of any accountability numbers or property numbers.

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Klinge #233398 11/23/2010 08:58 PM
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Klinge,

This is my favorite SD picture showing a 98/05 being carried.

Richard K

AndyB #233399 11/23/2010 08:58 PM
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More from Richard

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Denny Gaither #233400 11/23/2010 09:00 PM
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Kuchta 11-23_06.jpg (28.25 KB, 234 downloads)
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WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
Denny Gaither #233401 11/23/2010 09:01 PM
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COMPARISON OF THE HORSTER SS MARKS TO THE WuK SS MARKS

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AndyB #233402 11/23/2010 09:07 PM
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Andy,

Thanks for the information.

The SS Officer was carrying a rifle and a combat belt with bayonet. The SS knew that Russin snipers looked for soldiers carrying pistols and binoculars. Just like carrying a target on your back.

The SS did add property marks to some of their VZ rifles. Those are the ones that I wanted to bring up.

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Letter from Fred Marut to Richard.

Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:54 AM
To: richkuch43@aol.com
Subject: Re: HORSTER SS MARKED BAYONET



Dear Richard:

Good to hear from you. I was finally able to see a photo of the EuF Horster commercial bayonet you got from Ralph Allen and posted on the internet. I used to have a log-on for the GDC.Com site (which is no longer valid). My attempts to re-register have never been responded to by the administrator with a confirmation and/or temp password either. A friend whom is registered shared the photo of the marking with me.

First, you ought to talk to the guy whom got bayonet from the kid that turned up with it @ the Great Western Show, and purchased it for $20.00. He is Don Miller. His phone# is xxx xxx xxxx. As I recall, he got the bayonet on a Saturday after I had left the show. When he later described the piece to me, IMHO it had all the aspects of what I might expect to see on a limited contract of commercial S84/98s ordered by the SS. Same holds true (and you & I have discussed this in the past) about the WKC commercials having the totenkopf w/ "lazy S" surcharge on the crossguard. He told me it had a totenkopf-SS-2 marking under the curve of the pommel and no serial numbers. I believe it was also devoid of WaAs.

I was given the first opportunity to purchase the bayonet. Don initially was not interested in selling it. However, he needed the money he hoped to get for it more, so it was offered to me for $800.00. Rare as it might be, I considered it an extreme amount for any S84/98 at the time (late 1980s or early 1990s), so had to pass. Before I was able to visit him and actually see the bayonet, it was sold to Ralph Allen, where it stayed until acquired by you.
I have known Don for 35 years & have no doubt it was purchased as he described to me. He was most gleeful when recounting the story to me (as would any of us be after making such an unexpected buy at a show).

I think it took Don about a week until he decided to part with the piece. I waited seven years until he let go the nicest WuK I have encountered, before he opted to part with it. In any event, having now seen the marking, knowing the story of how it was acquired, etc. I feel confident this example is legitimate. I cannot forsee some kid walking into the show with such a piece & selling it for $20.00, fake or real. I also doubt my long time friend would have offered it to me either, had the bayonet been otherwise. I think that covers everything I know on the Horster piece...

Best Regards,

Fred


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Denny Gaither #233408 11/23/2010 10:18 PM
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Firstly the Fred mentioned this"When he later described the piece to me, IMHO it had all the aspects of what I might expect to see on a limited contract of commercial S84/98s ordered by the SS. Same holds true (and you & I have discussed this in the past) about the WKC commercials having the totenkopf w/ "lazy S" surcharge on the crossguard. He told me it had a totenkopf-SS-2 marking under the curve of the pommel and no serial numbers. I believe it was also devoid of WaAs." so when i look to the piece You pictured there is WaA, so its not a commerzial contract, when the DH was there added i dont know but certainly not in 1938 as this piece initially went not to SS but to army because of WaA proof system.
The piece of WW1 of Haenckel dont have any sign of reworking, its a unreworked piece, the SG84/98 were reworked in majority of samples in period 1930-34.So i assume the DH and the numbers are engraved, which is for me problematic.
And about the pictures, without exact dating and situation there could be not made any resumes about wearing of bayonets by officers, the first mentioned Wheeler picture of is described as follows " Waffen SS major with rifle and bayonet.This Totenkopf Division officer is near the front line with the W-SS General Theodor Eicke,the officer is armed with a Mauser rifle and is carrying a S84/98 with officer bayonet knot.As officer is armed normally purchased their own uniforms and eqipment,this bayonet could very well be a commerzial product without military inspection markings."
Firstly the picture was done in west and with high possibility France or Belgium in 1940. As the officer was a combat unit leader i assume he got from depot a rifle with bayonet, certainly the info provided by Wheeler is wrong that the rifles and bayonets were buyed privately, and the reason why is the piece unmarked is that early SS obtained equipment commerzialy not through army WaA system, so the piece is probably a early WKC commerzial with wood grip.
The russian snipers have nothing to do with this, as they were efective later in war, then the cuff titles on uniform were hidden not only the weapons were changed.
The SD picture should be too dated but it could be one of the Police units, that were not involved in front battle but were used as Einsatz kommandos behind the lines.

AndyB #233411 11/23/2010 11:27 PM
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Andy,

Why is the engraved SS TK & ACCOUNTABILITY NUMBER a problem for you?




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Denny Gaither #233415 11/24/2010 12:06 AM
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SS WuK WITH ASTERISK

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Denny Gaither #233416 11/24/2010 12:10 AM
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SS POLICE / EAGLE B ; COMPARISONS ; CLEMEN & JUNG

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Denny Gaither #233417 11/24/2010 12:11 AM
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- SS POLICE / EAGLE B ; COMPARISONS ; CLEMEN & JUNG

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Denny Gaither #233418 11/24/2010 12:13 AM
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CAPTURE PAPERS FOR SS BAYONET SS 467

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Denny Gaither #233420 11/24/2010 12:16 AM
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S 244 36 WITH ASTERIK

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Denny Gaither #233424 11/24/2010 01:20 AM
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Richard

Perhaps you might explain what the marking on the M1914 Mauser pocket model signifies? TK SS-81?

And the death head on the holster? How do you determine authenticity of these stamps when they can be found on such items as this post WWII flare pistol holster?

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JoeW #233436 11/24/2010 03:49 AM
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Joe,

The TK /Runes/Accountability Number on the pistol signifies property of the SS with the SS accountability number. This a point that I was trying to make earlier. Eventhough there serial numbers from the manufacturer, the SS added there own property stamp and number. For an example, I showed the pistol along with 2 bayonets. One bayonet had serial numbers and the other did not. The SS added there property stamp and number. This type of property control is seen quite readily through the SS VT period. Much less in the Waffen SS.

As for the TK on the leather being original, I have over 80 SS frogs with different style TKs. I have over 15 TK marked Combat Belts, TK marked Rifle slings,over 20 TK marked ammo pouches, as well as several Luger holsters and 1 flashlight carrier. I have a very in depth number from which I can make comparisons.

Joe,the holster that you posted, is that from a Reichs Revolver? If so, that style of pistol was suppose to be among the first sidearms used in the KZs. Ihave seen several such guns and holsters in collections. The extremely large skull is appropriate for the gun if it is a Reichs Revolver. The style of skull and size is correct but I would have to make a direct comparisson with my own items.

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Andy,

I asked you why you have a problem with engraved TKs and accountability numbers? I knew you would and that is why I posted this specific bayonet. If you were looking at all of the picture posts, you should have come across the capture papers. Bayonet #467 is listed on the Capture Papers dated 1945. The American soldiers back then did not know that Bayonet #467 was an SS Bayonet.

Andy, SS Property "Stamps" were either stamped and or engraved. You may not feel good about engraved SS Property Stamps and numbers but the SS did alot of it this way. The majority of my SSVT 98/05 bayonets are done in this manner. Capture papers for SS Bayonets are almost non existent. I know of no others outside of my collection.

Andy,

You made a statement before about the SS Elite wouldn't stand for a lot of variations of TKs etc. Well the SS Elite was not so elite: They used whatever bayonets and weapons that they could get their hands on. Look at the reworked GEW rifles: X out numbers, poor metal finish, etc. but they shot.

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Joe,

Did you have a chance to look at the SS Police Eagle B ?

Any thoughts on the S 244 36 Asterik. Could this also be a Police bayonet?

Richard K

Denny Gaither #233442 11/24/2010 04:41 AM
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In regards to the S 244 36 SS Bayonet, when do you think that the serial number & letter were affected? Before or after the grinding process?

in my opinion, they would apply the serial number after all of the secondaries were completed.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Joe,
The TK /Runes/Accountability Number on the pistol signifies property of the SS with the SS accountability number. This a point that I was trying to make earlier. Eventhough there serial numbers from the manufacturer, the SS added there own property stamp and number. ...........Joe,the holster that you posted, is that from a Reichs Revolver? If so, that style of pistol was suppose to be among the first sidearms used in the KZs............. The style of skull and size is correct but I would have to make a direct comparisson with my own items.Richard Kuchta


Richard, I am not sure to which part of the SS you are referring with your first statement. It is obvious from the discovery of tens of dozens of RSHA inventory weapon inventory cards that at least that significant section of the SS that included the Gestapo, Kripo and SD,did not utilize an "SS accountability number". The only number of reference for their property control was the manufacturer's serial number that was required on both parts of the pistol (frame and slide) and magazines. That is fact.

The holster is a post-war flare pistol holster manufactured after 1945 to which a TK marking has been applied.

I saw your E/B marked bayonets. I believe that weapons bearing this acceptance stamp are bought and paid for by the Ordnungspolizei using funds provided in the annual budget of the Ministry of the Interior remain the property of the Ordnungspolizei and would not be disposed of without removal of that inspection/property mark. There were strict procedures for handling weapons when the owner was temporarily assigned to another administration from the original home base or when he was transfered. The weapons stayed on the books of the dispersing home base. It could go temporarily with one to another unit, but if the transfer was premanent, the weapon had to be returned to home base. That is fact. So I don't know how you can explain the existence of SS-TK markings (whatever they may signify)on the property of the Ordnungspolizei. I do not believe a simple asterisk would indicate any acceptance mark. The aserisk/subburst K or L was used by the Prussian police up through 1935/36 when it was replaced the the national police insignias based on the eagle and letter.


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JoeW #233452 11/24/2010 06:35 AM
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Richard,

There is a lot to look at, and some of it requires a little more work to try and make an analysis. But for the 1936 S/244 “Stern”, “Asterisk” or “Flower” (or however you want to describe it) with the late grips, I think I mentioned a non-milspec manufactured bayonet that was still usable. And here we have a bayonet with a very small ricasso that can still function as a weapon. But most likely failed whatever gauging process they used to accept items for the Army. That said, I think that I have at least one early bayonet with a shorter than average ricasso, and I will have to look at it to see how (or if) it affected the marking process.

And with the disclaimer that I’m not a “paper/document” guy. There is the Waffen-SS Soldbuch. With some of the ones that I’ve seen it might show an “S” coded, serial numbered bayonet. Maybe a maker marked one without any number. Or maybe just a serial number that had to be from an Army/Wehrmacht contract. And in the firearm portion, a 98K, or possibly a G33/40, or maybe a pistol with serial numbers. With possibly some weapons being lined out, and new ones added. But like I said I’m not a specialist in that area, and more work is needed, but that is some of what I have seen.

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Richard,

With this photo I'm fairly sure that the one to the left is the Weyersberg Police. But the one to the right is the Clemen u. Jung with two "SS" markings? Or is it some other bayonet?

Regards, FP

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Firstly Richard thanks for adding of the pictures, so we probably could made some estimates or spend here our opinions.
I will firstly attach the comments to the WaA pieces,
1.WuK 27, proofed correctly by army WaA61,when a asterisk mark so its a reject piece, there should be no SS stamp. When then by rework, on the piece are no sign of this. But the DH is stamped, so it could be real. I personally dont like this type of stamp.
2.S/244.36 piece is a normal Wehrmacht contract, the blade is ok, the grips were changed, why i dont know, You mentioned a G stamp so prior 1943 is this not real. The series letter is probably misstamped should be a or g letter, in h range is reported the 8 pointstar, This asterisk is typical for reject parts, that goesnot through control in first time, the SS DH stamp is engraved, prior 1941 should be no way that SS got this piece.
3.Clemen Jung a other normal Wehrmacht contract, serialed in d range, we have other 10 samples in this range, normal piece not rework in anyway, The DH is a joke , the SS and number looks engraved, in 1939 no way as property of SS, as no rework so it is problematic
4.P.Weyersberg 8192 police, really bad as this is a really SS police bayonet, that was damaged by adding of DH, maybe Joe could more add, but SS Police i believe has nothing to do with TKV or KZL guards, i assume it was destined for SchPO or other police units, as You could see its a commerzial contract!!! no any WaA!!!, the early numbers are reported in 1940, the numbers goes to 10000 minimum. The DH is engraved, and should be not there as its already a SS police piece.
5.Mauser M14 pistol, its the pre 1934 design, i am not experts on pistols, but believe this is a late 20ies production for commerzial market, has nothing with SS, it was buyed privately, so no reason stamp there any SS numbers, the markings is engraved.You should ask on axis or Gunboard pistol forum for details about the serial number dating. The DH on frog could be real, but i am not expert on this.
6. The certificate dont speak about any details of 467 marked bayonet, You have there a SS stamped piece, or any other details? no i believe when i bring here a piece with 467 number it could be ok.2 german daggers - what is this SA,SS, army ,LW no specialization.So no way to link it after 60 or 70 years to a collection.
best regards,Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/24/2010 12:21 PM.
AndyB #233459 11/24/2010 12:27 PM
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There are some question that should be answered:
Why they used similar DH on piece as WW1 Haenckel, that should be reworked in early 30ies and a Clemen Jung 39 that was 100% a army contract? You spoke about 25 variation of DH but here are minimum of 5-6 years difference with similar proofs. I believe because they came from one source.
The most problematic piece for me is the Police SS bayonet, as there have nothing to do the DH stamp, as it was already a SS property. Same as S/244.36 which has post 1943 grips have similar stamp as the earlier ones??
The using of various materials didnt means that germans or SS have not a certain directives how to accept equipment into service or property. This is certainly not here the point, more problematic is that You compare a early prewar , with early war and late war period, thats the problem, dating of the stamping, same as SS was increased and changed in short period.
I have a rule, when a problematic piece came from a certain source, so the complete source is problematic. For this i have only one resume. I dont like these DH stamps. So You should compare each piece where it came from. Anyway it is a interesting discussion.
best regards,Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/24/2010 12:42 PM.
AndyB #233482 11/24/2010 04:10 PM
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Andy,

Your statement regarding the capture paper not relating to the SS 467 bayonet is so incorrect. You definitely are not familiar with capture papers. Gosh, the capture paper did not describe what type of medals or identify the daggers. These souvenirs had no importance or value to soldiers. They just wanted souvenirs from the War to send home.

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No for me is no incorrect, when the paper change the owner and the dagger are saled to other, You will never know what for dagger were brought back by the GIs. So its like it mentioned FP in previous paper statement, in Soldbuch and other oficial papers, there is unfullended information, because in the papers are only numbers to sample soldier have a rifle with 8145 number, the letter of series were not added, as when the producer made 5 production strings from letter a-e, in the bunch are 5 rifles of serial number 8145, which rifle have the soldier?? Thats the problem by similar certificate papers. So when a german bayonet 467, it could be SG98/05 with 467 numbering, same as Carl Eickhorn 39 with 467b or 44asw, 467aa. There is too minor detailed info, so it could be not linked. Only by owning the piece with paper from war in one collection for 70 years and totally confirmed that the piece were never changed. best regards,Andy
PS You could look to list of RSHA presented by Joe W. Rauff got there in 1942 a P08 pistol, with serial number 9514 or so, it was Mauser production or byf production, or it was a older Luger? where is letter of series? is this a commerzial contract? You could not use similar info as is it not enough info to determine a certain pistol.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/24/2010 05:00 PM.
AndyB #233498 11/24/2010 05:19 PM
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Andy,

The Capture Papers listing Bayonet #467 perfectly describe the SS Bayonet that was sent home by the GI. Just because you don,t want it to be doesn't change the validity of the Capture Paper for identifying the SS Bayonet #467.

Andy, how many Capture Papers do you have in your collection? Any Capture Papers to go with SS Rifles, Bayonets, Equipment? Please Post we would like to see them.

Richard K

JoeW #233502 11/24/2010 06:00 PM
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Joe,

I have no hard documentation on the SS Property Stamp & accountability numbers found on SS Bayonets and some weapons. You are the expert on Police items and I can only show you the Police Bayonets with the SS Property Marks. Have you ever seen a bayonet such as I posted before? I do not have the answers as to why such Police Marked Bayonets with SS Property Stamps exist. I invite you to see my collection and evaluate first hand what I have shown you so far. I am sure that I have the largest collection of SS Bayonets eventhough it numbers slightly over 100. There should theoretically be thousands of SS Bayonets out there but there are not.
I keep going back to the SS Property Stamping the majority of their rifles. I know that the numbers on the bayonets are not linked to the serial numbers on the rifles.

As for the Early Death Head Stamp on your Holster, I was not familiar with that holster per say. That is why I asked if it was a Reichs Revolver. I have a friend in Albany, NY who has a very large, advanced SS Weapons Collection and he has 2. The reichs revolvers were supposedly used in the early days of the KZ Camps. I do know that his holsters had the typical early , large TK Stamps. I shall try to post some pictures om my Early Death Head Stamps.

Richard K

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