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Richard,

Plastic grips would not be original. Are they internally marked, and if so what are the markings?

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

Never took the grips off of the SS S 244 36. I have never found any SS marks on the inside of plastic grips. It is my opinion that the SS did not swap out the grips on the 84/98 bayonets unless there was damage. The replacement grips would then be Camp manufactured wood grips.

Richard K

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FP,

Did you say that you have some information on the SS ZZ A2 & A4 marked bayonets. Can you share?

Richard K

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Richard,

I've seen literally hundreds (if not more) of German reworked Vz.24 bayonets all with recycled wooden grips. Never one with what looked like a brand new set. Likewise, I've seen a greater number of SG 84/98 (98K) period German recycled bayonets. Wood and plastic. Some might be in better condition than others. But on bayonets so far, all recycled. The singular exception being a couple of sets of brand new late plastic grips by themselves, from a small group of "war booty" items taken from a factory.

It takes a certain amount of specialized machinery (and procedures - plus) to carve the grips out of a block of wood in any kind of economically viable quantity. Can you post a few pictures of what a new camp made replacement grip might look like?

PS: That picture you posted of the KZ workshop was circa 1943/44.

Best Regards, FP


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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Did you say that you have some information on the SS ZZ A2 & A4 marked bayonets. Can you share?

Richard K

Richard,

Only on the rifles, and nothing beyond what is generally known or believed to be true. That said, some of the history is a fairly interesting topic IMO.

Best Regards, FP

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FP,

The SS ZZ A2 & A4 bayonets will be a topic for discussion later. However I must say that these SS marked bayonets are eye catchers. SS markngs are the best of them all.

Richard Kuchta

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Forum Members,

Have you ever seen the picture in George Wheeler's Book (Seitengeeehr) on page 213. "Unidentified SS Nederland Bayonet".

Want to see one?

Richard K

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The S/244 36 with removed letter block is a rework, same as plastic grips could be not a normal configuration on the piece, so the flower marking has nothing to do with it.The piece started as army piece ,because proofed with WaA. The SS marking we dont know what looks as You have not added the P.Weyersberg piece. There could be only one possibility that army rejected the piece in war period and SS used it.best regards,Andy

AndyB #233298 11/22/2010 02:26 PM
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Andy,

Your opinion sounds like a possible solution. However it doesn't explain why it is matched up with a blank scabbard with WA 219 on the ball. The bayonet is serial numbered.

Richard K

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Possible answer is the flower marking, as many collectors believe the piece was not accepted into service or were reworked probably by Mundlos, that would be a explanation why is there a WaA219 on ball finial, anyway without seeing the details of pommel WaA area and details of bard area is hard say any opinions. Same as the grips should be dissambled and inspected for marking. The flower stamp should be on crossguard too.

AndyB #233302 11/22/2010 04:09 PM
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Andy,

I just took the grips off of the S 244 36. There was nothing on the grips except the mold #. The tang was perfectly clean of any marks. There was no * on the cross guard.

Richard K

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The grips when dark colored should be marked with code of maker, when red colored so G marked and mold numbers. There are two WaA219 with flower stamp between?

AndyB #233304 11/22/2010 04:59 PM
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The grips are marked G with mold cavity: #16 & #31.

Richard K

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So the grips are post 1942 period.The piece a rework, as removed letter and probably reblued. But without pictures is hard to confirm its same period as the SS stamp there was applied.

AndyB #233306 11/22/2010 05:50 PM
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Andy,

You will see some pictures of the bayonet but not today. My technician did not come in today.

The blood groove runs way into the ricasso and almost completely removes the 8 in the serial #. The blade edge relief has removed the majority of the letter. Bluing on the blade is 98%.

Richard K

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The formulation of the late plastic grips was known by the Germans as a Type 41, with a January 1943 standardization/implementation date. Without seeing the grips (and preferably the whole bayonet) it’s impossible to say just what time period it might have been reworked. Because the formulation itself did change as the war progressed. Regards to All, FP

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FP,

Can you put up your pictures of known reproduction etched bayonets. Those that are etched on the blade and pommel.

Richard K

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Richard,

Are you talking about dress bayonets, or the combat type of bayonets?

Regards, FP

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I brought 4 SS bayonets to take pictures of and post. I have to wait till tomorrow to post the items.

However, any members out there have any information on the SS Polish wz. 29 bayonet? This is a very rare bayonet in it's SS rework form.


Richard K

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Hi Richard

My fake SS etched K98 bayonet.
Regards
Alain


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FP,

If you have both that would be great to post.

Richard K

Klinge #233323 11/22/2010 09:07 PM
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Klinge,

Thank you for posting the SS bayonet. It is very beneficial for the collector to see both the original SS bayonets and the reproductions.

Richard K

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Hi Richard

Unfortunately I own only this one.....!!!
Regards
Alain

Klinge #233326 11/22/2010 09:27 PM
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Thanks again Klinge.

Richard K

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Yes a normal etch made by Bayoking in England in late 70ies, exist about 25 SS divisions etches, unfortunally some new etches that are with real SS mottos of KS98 dress bayonets were found lately.

AndyB #233329 11/22/2010 10:37 PM
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Andy and Forum Members,

Do you have any pictures of these reproduction bayonets to post?


Richard K

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Richard,do you have any period documentation whatsoever regarding SS procedures regarding bayonets? Anything concerning either the Allegemeine SS, VT/WSS or TV and their requirements? Andy and Fred, do you have anything or ever seen anything? Do any of the catalogs in collections specify SS bayonets for purchase?


"This hobby is a continuing education"
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http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/fake%20etching/fakes.htm
Here is a link that we wrote with Erik and some other members of BCN some years ago.
To Joes question - i saw nothing about the accepting of bayonets into SS service, i believe one german member who is experts too(and member here) and looked in to war archives have found nothing too.

Last edited by AndyB; 11/22/2010 11:25 PM.
JoeW #233334 11/22/2010 11:39 PM
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Joe,

I know that I have read several articles specifically stating that officers were required to purchase their own equipment. I do not remember the article specifically stating a bayonet.

The majority of the SS VT bayonets in my collection have accountability numbers on them. Several do not. Those that do not are in much better condition than those with accountability numbers.

I need to check my SS TV bayonets to see how the accountability numbers are.

Richard K

JoeW #233336 11/22/2010 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: JWotka
Richard,do you have any period documentation whatsoever regarding SS procedures regarding bayonets? Anything concerning either the Allegemeine SS, VT/WSS or TV and their requirements? Andy and Fred, do you have anything or ever seen anything? Do any of the catalogs in collections specify SS bayonets for purchase?

Joe, I’m looking into a couple of things right now, but it’s more tangential than a directive like a manual or a TL. And quite frankly, until we see some more of the items mentioned, some things might make better sense if we actually knew what it is that we are discussing. FP

JoeW #233338 11/22/2010 11:55 PM
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Joe,

Can you be more specific in regards as to what you are looking for?

Are you looking for directives pertaining to maintaining a bayonet (sharpening, etc)?

Richard K

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FP,

Do you have any SS Reproduction Bayonets to post? We would like to see them.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Joe,

I know that I have read several articles specifically stating that officers were required to purchase their own equipment. I do not remember the article specifically stating a bayonet.

The majority of the SS VT bayonets in my collection have accountability numbers on them. Several do not. Those that do not are in much better condition than those with accountability numbers.

I need to check my SS TV bayonets to see how the accountability numbers are.

Richard K

Richard,

Speaking generally, from memory, officers were given an allowance to purchase uniform items and that would (or could) include pistols. And while private purchase bayonets as sidearms in the trenches for officers in WW I might have not been uncommon. And while there are a few pictures in circulation showing otherwise, bayonets generally were for enlisted men. And senior NCO's (who were enlisted) were given government property swords if the occasion warranted, not bayonets. Note: Here I'm referring to parades, ceremonies etc. not combat. And in combat officers would have pistols as sidearms, (or maybe sub machine guns or something with more firepower if it was close combat).

PS: And what exactly do you mean by accountability numbers?

Best Regards, FP

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The accountability number is the number added by the SS to the bayonet. If the bayonet has been given a number, the scabbard will almost always have the same number added.

I have 2 bayonets with the same serial numbers. For example an 84/98 bayonet has the same number as that on a 98/05.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

Do you have any SS Reproduction Bayonets to post? We would like to see them.

Richard K

Richard,

My files are currently not as well organized as I would like. So it may take a little while to gather the information and put something together.

FP

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FP,

I know you will have some great stuff. We need to be able to make some comparisons.

We haven't even scratched the surface yet on SS bayonets.

Richard K

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
The accountability number is the number added by the SS to the bayonet. If the bayonet has been given a number, the scabbard will almost always have the same number added.

I have 2 bayonets with the same serial numbers. For example an 84/98 bayonet has the same number as that on a 98/05.

Richard K

Richard,

Do you mean like the added numbers pictured below?

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I know you will have some great stuff. We need to be able to make some comparisons.

We haven't even scratched the surface yet on SS bayonets.

Richard K

And no offense, but my dilemma here is that I really can’t do comparisons without permission to post some side by side images.

Best Regards, FP

CZ numbered.jpg (54.38 KB, 218 downloads)
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FP,

From the pictures that I hope to send tomorrow, you will see the accountability numbers that I have described to you.

The accountability numbers are also found on SS marked pistols.

If my tech comes in tomorrow, we will have pictures of SS bayonets to look at.

Richard Kuchta

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FP and Forum Members,

I received an E-mail from Fred Marut today in regards to the SS Horster Bayonet. I e-mailed him back and asked if I could post it so that all of the members interested in SS Bayonets could read the interesting history of the SS Horster Bayonet. Fred is extremely knowledgeable on Bayonets and is a very advanced collector. Ihope to hear from him shortly.

Richard K

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Richard, I asked you and the others if you had in your archive or viewed source material (documentation in the form of manuals, national archive prints or original communications from the 1930s/1940s) that deal with the issue of bayonets used by the Allegemeine SS, VT/WSS or TV. I am curious if any documentation has been discovered to associate with the pictorial documentation we see in this thread. I have seen an inventory from 1935 from an Allegemein supervisory unit listing weapons and equipment in unit possession.

Did the articles you read about bayonet procurement for officers provide any documentary sources for their statements, or was it pure theory? I ask these question as I have always tried to find source answers for questions of police issue weapons and equipment. I have found documented reports showing the increase in police bayonet production in the first year of the war, that I mentioned in my police sidearm article I wrote long ago for Johnson's Vol IV. And their are of course the numerous police weapon manuals dealing with bayonets. I was interested if anyone has pursued a similar course in the SS field.


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