UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum SS Bayonets

I am starting this topic at the request of Richard Kuchta. To begin, I am posting pictures of 3 bayonets in Richard's collection. I am posting these pictures in the order in which they were received. Richard will add appropriate comments.

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Denny,

Well done, an excellent topic as typified by all the responses on the white frog thread.

So Rich has the Heinz Brenner piece? I remember seeing it on Ron Diestlehorst's site many moons ago & initially was skeptical because in those days I was always skeptical of any bayonet purporting to be associated with the SS. This one, however seems to have much more going for it. Especially in that it's not overembellished with swazs & runes all over.

I think the next time I saw it was in Wayne Techet's book where it had a multi-page writeup. Overall the quality just seems to be there in the etch. Not double etched but triple etched which is always a nice thing to see. I've been told there are some bogus triple etched pieces out there but this one looks to be very well done. And thanks to Wayne, we know the vine & leaf motif was done by Holler for Horster & WKC so there is consistency & an tangible connection between the manufacturer of the bayonet & the maker of the etch template.

Another nice thing about this piece is the fact it has some research potential. A gift from a proud father to his son, a special sentiment indeed. Thanks for sharing.

A beautiful assemblage of truly rare bayonets.

I only have one SS marked bayonet, on an unmarked blade. But the etch pattern screams Klaas.

Here it is.

John

Denny,

Thank you very much for putting the pictures of the SS Bayonets up for me.

Richard K

John and Forum Members,

Look at the portapee on John's bayonet and then look at the portapees on my 2 RZM Bayonets. Which portapee is considered the SS VT and which is considered the Waffen SS Portapee?

Richard K

John,

You have a very rare SS Bayonet. I have watched it over the years and then lost track of it.

Richard K

Billy,

Thank you for your kind remarks and interest in the SS Triple Etch. Do you and or any of our forum members have any questions on the SS RZM and or triple etch. I know that there are a few Forum members that have Some SS RZM Bayonets. Please show them.

Richard K

Grumpy,

I am glad that you liked the RZM SS Bayonets and the SS triple etch. I have two more SS etched bayonets in my collection. Any questions on the RZMs or the triple etch that I can answer for you?

Richard K

Thanks, but the photos speak volumes. I am fortunate to own a single RZM example with portepee and frog. It has been the only example I have seen for sale during my collecting days and I am very happy to have it! Would like to find an etched example, but most who own them are well aware of their value. Maybe some day at a flea market, antique mall, etc. Wishful thinking!

Forum Members,

I would like to cover the following topics on SS Bayonets:

1. SS KS 84/98 Bayonets.

2. Do SS marked bayonets exist or are they all fakes and reproductions.

3. Bayonet Models used by the SS. German & Foreign captured.

4. SS markings used on guns, bayonets & equipment.

5. Exert from Mike Welser's Bayonet Book.

6. Comparison of a SS VT Bayonet to a SS TV Bayonet to a Waffen SS Bayonet.

7. SS Police Bayonets.

8. SS Portapees.

9. SS Marked Frogs.

10. SS Rigs: SS Marked & Numbered: Belt, Bayonet, Pouches, Canteen & Bread Bag.

11. Unmarked SS bayonets & equipment.

12. 2 SS Bayonets with: consecutive numbers, phosphate finish, dated 1945, & capture papers.

We can also add to this list of topics. Please let me know what you want to discuss and add to the list. I shall also have photos (from Mr. Noss from whom I have purchased the rights) showing SS men with bayonets. They are informative and interesting to the collector.

Please give me your thoughts on the topics.

Richard Kuchta

I have no doubt about the RZM marked short dress bayonets? Anyone seen a long one so marked? Wish I knew more about the issue type equipment and bayonets, but some authentic SS markings do seem to appear on such. Etched SS dress bayonets are extremely rare and were undoubtedly special ordered. Is there a period maker catalog that illustrates them. Never seen or heard of such. Probably more than a few fakes of these around, but there do seem to be "legitimate" examples, based on workmanship and other factors.

Richard, In your list of discussion items, you mentioned SS markings used on guns, bayonets & equipment.

Here is my meager contribution; a 1939 Steyr rework of a WWI Gewehr 98 rifle.

I bought a SS double sided engraved bayonet on a hotel buy in Texas, some 12 years ago. Maker was "WKC".Wish i still had it.My question is why do we not see more SS engraved bayonets, there were plenty of SS men, you always see the Army engraved pieces.
Thanks
Bob

I just noticed the Brenner ss bayonet on the discussion. That is the same bayonet that I bought and sold to Ron Distelhorst. I been collecting for 42 years, and have done hotel buys forever and that is the only one I have ever seen.
thanks
Bob

Denny,

Is the pistol grip area marked with a Death head? Thanks for showing your SS rifle. The same property marks used on the rifles will be found on some of the SS bayonets. Have several bayonets marked with Runes over a TK.

Richard K

Bob,

I have to agree with you. Why are there not more original SS etched bayonets out there? I have a few more;however, for every one original SS etched bayonet I have seen at least 25 fake/reproduction ones. Somewhere an opinion was expressed that because the SS was always on the move that they did not get the opportunity to order the KS Bayonets. I think that it has more to do with attrition. Early SS units were completely wiped out and then refitted with new recruits and then bled dry again. My opinion also goes for the scaricity of the early SS TV equipment / bayonets. Extremelyrare items.

Richard K

Bob,

You were very lucky and had very good taste acquiring the SS triple etch. Ron gave me a story on how the GI acquired the SS Triple Etch Bayonet. Some story and alot of luck. Thanks for your input Bob.

Richard K

Grumpy,

Did you post a picture of youe RZM bayonet awhile ago? I thought that I had seen it. It is said that the SS RZM bayonets were used before the SS daggers became available. The SS RZM bayonets have a tendency to loose their nickel chrome plating. I have seen several others and they all seem to have this in common. Perhaps bad castings & or bad plating. However, you just do not see them out in the collector's field. There should be many more.

Richard K

Forum Members,

Give me your opinions on the two different styles of SS portapees. Which is considered SS VT and which would be Waffen SS?

Richard K

There was a Heer army dagger posted a while back with a blade dedication to a " Heinz Brenner".

Richard, The third picture shows the pistol grip with a nearly worn smooth DH.

Could you please expand upon your statement about using the RZM bayonets before the SS dagger became available? Didn't the '33 SS dagger become available before the Reichs Zeug Meisterei was formed in 1934?

Richard, I have not posted photos of my RZM bayonet here. As to the portepees, I don't have the answer. My guess is the metallic portepees are earlier, being of the same materials as the silver examples with runes on the stems, often called "officer" portepees, even though they are sometimes seen on NCO weapons. Those appeared around 1935-36. The VT and W-SS portepees may have been the same, maybe not. I think not, since there are few seen, given the size of the W-SS. I have always thought it odd that no known official W-SS bayonet portepee was issued. They may have been the controversial metallic type with black thread, seen in at least two types. If that is the case, very few, if any, were issued. Many believe they are postwar, plain and simple. I, too, have noticed there seem to be few RZM bayonets and have wondered why there aren't more. Perhaps the dagger quickly replaced it, leading to few RZM bayonets being manufactured. The RZM stamp indicates the manufacture date is likely 1935, just before the daggers came out. Also, the standard dress bayonets, short and long, must have come out somewhere during this time, perhaps eliminating the need for RZM markings. I agree the hilts on the early bayonets age and wear poorly. They often show "bubbling," peeling, "wear-through," etc. It's too bad the materials aren't better, so many would be better preserved. The early history of Third Reich edged weapons and their accouterments seems somewhat convoluted. It appears there was a struggle within the party to get organized and to standardize things for a time in the early and mid-1930's. Edged weapons, uniforms, insignia, etc., were all subject to change during that time and even later.

The daggers were produced prior to the RZM becoming operational, and Denny is correct that it was formed in 1934. Early in 1935 the: “Dienstdolche der SA und SS, Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk,” by name and a number of other specified (NSDAP) items were under the legal protection of multiple decrees. There was no mention of dress bayonets, and the Waffen-SS itself did not come into existence until years later. FP

Fred, your correct about the RZM. But the LAH was around before the Waffen-SS and there is pictorial evidence in RPT books and elsewhere of them wearing the KS98. I have some in my files and will post one tomorrow.

Joe, I’m looking forward to the pictures, but I think that we may be looking at the same thing, but from different angles. I have no argument with the fact that the KS98 is seen in period photos, or that other types of bayonets are seen as well. Or that the LAH was eventually transformed into a combat unit, and was an integral part of the Waffen-SS.

What I was trying to get at being that the Waffen-SS itself as a distinct entity did not exist until well after 1935. Fred

Combat units of SS used in early days the older Wehrmacht equipment, so GEW.98 or Kar.98a with SG98/05 and SG84/98 WW1 era bayonets, the commerzial reworks of rifles doesnt mean the stamps on rifles should be same as on bayonets automaticly. The dress KS98 were used too, there is photografic material enough.best regards,Andy

Denny,

My statement about the RZM SS Bayonets comes from the collector's community with no actual documentation bases. Early photos show SS men wearing KS bayonets. Mr Noss provided some excellent photos to us many years back of an SS TV man being married and wearing a KS bayonet with "SS NCO Sword Portapee". My opinion is that "if the TV man had a dagger he would be wearing it on his wedding day." My opinion. Also, what was early production like for SS daggers. Where the daggers readily available. Since the SS got all old left over equipment, did this same situation also push them to the back of the bus for dagger prodsuction?

I have a great picture that will be appropriate to post today if I can get it to Denny. Look at who is wearing a KS Bayonet and portapee.

From Richard:

"Who is the SS General wearing the bayonet and portapee"?

Forum Members,

Do you recognise the famous SS General wearing a KS Bayonet and portapee? Perhaps his SS Men follow suit wearing a KS Bayonet instead of a dress dagger??

Richard K

Denny,

Thank you for posting the picture.

Richard K

There must be always given a date with a similar picture, i assume from info about SS uniforms is a 1932-36 period, note the small eagle on the cap, the general is here as a Regiment commander of LAH.best regards,Andy

Hello

Sepp Dietrich ?

Regards
Alain

Yes, already is more possible to focus the picture to 1934-35 period as there are probably sleeve cufftitles same as he had higher officer rank post 1935.On Wikipedia there is a visitation of LAH by AH and he wore sabre instead of bayonet.

I could be wrong w/o clearer pictures,but to me that doesn't look like a bayonet, more like a sword.

Alain & Andy you are both right. It is an early picture of Sepp Dietrich wearing a bayonet & portapee. As you can see he is surrounded by officers wearing daggers. There are many pictures of Sepp out there wearing bayonets.

Richard K

Mikee,

The picture is of Sepp Dietrich wearing a bayonet. There are similiar pictures of him with his famous sword.

Richard K

All I'm saying is, he probably is but the picture isn't clear enough for "me" to see the difference. Your word is good enough for me.I'm half blind anyway . Thank you.