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FP,

I agree that there are fake SS marked frogs out there. I have seen SS Fake frogs that are marked with the SS VA Stamp; Runes in a circle; Runes in a circle & RZM in a circle stamp. However, I have never seen a fake SS Frog with a Death Head.

The SS VZ-24 bayonets are a good place to start when documenting Waffen SS Bayonets & Frogs. The bayonets are dated.

The majority of the SS TV bayonets & frogs are dated. One can produce a very good time line on these bayonets.

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Richard, For myself, I can’t say that I’ve never seen a fake “Death’s Head” marking. There are others that know the legitimate rifles much better than I do, and it’s been a while since I’ve looked at them. But with that said, I can remember some with fake “Death’s Head” markings so I’m reasonably certain that if a stamp can be made to mark steel. That it’s even easier to make one that is able to stamp a much softer material.

As for the Vz 24 bayonets, we know that whatever was already in the Czech armory’s was available to the Germans, and that some portion of it was given to the SS. But we also know that the dates on the blades are Czechoslovakian, from before it was taken over. And that the first bayonets made under German supervision were identical to the CZ bayonets, but with undated German markings. Also, that the relatively large number of the subsequently OEM modified bayonets made to German specifications from Povázská Bystrica were undated. And that it was not until 1942 with those from Ceskoslovenská Zbrojovka Brno, that we see dates. Which is a relatively long time after the Waffen SS had become heavily engaged in combat in Russia. And was being supplied with both heavy and light weapons as a part of the Wehrmacht.

Attached: A side by side showing some of the markings. On the left at the top a full MR Bystrica, with Brno on the bottom. In the middle a side by side with Bystrica to the left. And to its right, a later “dot” (Brno) set of markings on the standard factory OEM bayonet made to German specifications. Not shown is the factory OEM modified bayonet from Bystrica which is undated, but believed to be circa 1941, and otherwise identical to those later bayonets from Brno. Regards, FP

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I agree with you on the TK marks on leather. This is a hotly debated subject concerning P08 holsters with a large TK on the cover flap in particular.

I concern is what does a TK impression on a piece of leather signify. Is it a property stamp or acceptance stamp? If so, to what unit does it signify ownership or for what unit was it accepted. When seen on rework G-98s, the mark is found as an acceptance with the proper SS-Za number on the bbl. and sometimes a single TK on the stock.

It is intersting that a large quantity of Czech helmets went to the ORPO for use by their training btls. in 1939, but those troopers were still issued S98/05s to go with their K98a weapons. Still, they did receive the Czech machine guns, but you don't see many bayonets.


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Gentlemen,

You are correct that a Death Head Stamp could be made and used. However, how many frogs have you seen with such a stamp? I have at least 10 complete rigs consisting of: combat belt, bayonet & frog, & bullet pouches. Also have some with a bread bag and canteen. Each piece is marked with a TK. Also I have capture papers that list the serial numbers of several of my bayonets, which are SS marked. Some SS rifle slings are also TK marked.

The large SS TK on the flap of some SS reworked lugers is a legitimate stamp. I also have the same large TK on a leather carrying case for a flashlight. There was alot of leather work done in some of the work camps. This large TK is also seen on leather tool carriers that engineers or pioneers would use.

SS VZ-24 bayonets used by the SS were reworked and in most cases fitted with new grips. Inside of the grips are SS markings and dates.

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Billy, here is another white frog maker: Kern Klager & Cie. They were a maker of police P08 holsters. I cannot make out a Po marking on the reverse of this one found on the Regimentals.com site. The marking above the maker mark is illegible. Or can someone make it out? But here we have a white parade dress bayonet frog for either the police or LSAH.

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I believe FP is right on the czechoslovak captured material, there is no sign of stamping material with SS or DH same as no marked on WKC blankos or other commerzial bayonets that were used by W-SS. Some exception are from the early prewar period. All the upgrades of old Gew98 were mainly commerzial done.There is no reason to marking inside of grips for SS property, as is no visible by normal view. Certainly not on Vz.24 bayonets.best regards,Andy
PS its confirmed that already 9 of 10 DH or SS markings are fakes as its very interesting link the items with SS or W-SS. Its sale politics.

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Andy,

I completely disagree with your comment concerning that VZ-24 bayonets and WKC marked blades which were used by the SS were not marked by the SS. What data do you base this statement on? Many of these above mentioned blades exist in SS Weapons Collections. How many SS bayonets and rifles have you seen and handled? My collection is available for you and FP to examine at anytime.
Have you ever seen or handled an SS TK bayonet? Have you ever seen or handled an SS Police Bayonet?

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Richard, While we have never met face to face, you may remember that we spoke I think a few times on the telephone was it 7 or 8 (?) years ago.

And that earlier on the forum, I disagreed with what you said on page 562 of Tom Wittmann’s SS book. As regards a certain plastic gripped 1937 dated Mundlos bayonet, and it’s VA marked 401 code SS frog? With my point being that I did not need to take a trip to figure that out. I do have some hands experience (but not with your personal collection). And that as you may also recall, I did not have to physically touch certain items to draw some conclusions that you may or may not have agreed with.

So instead of trading opinions, and asking how many of this or that has been physically in hand. Perhaps we could find some way to visualize some of these apparently contentious issues?? Regards, Fred

PS: For what's it’s worth, I believe that what Andy said was: "...... Some exception are from the early prewar period". For myself, I’ve seen early commercial WKC’s unmarked. A few that I believe were legitimate DH examples, and a much larger number of what I thought were PW “add ons”.

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PPS: The ink stamp below is not that well done, and not a part of the discussion as an example of faking. What I found interesting was its simplicity. And that it would not take much to make it as a more durable metal copy. Suitable for stamping softer materials like wood or leather, by cutting away unwanted portions leaving the basic (but improved) outline in place.

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FP,

I have started and stopped my book several times on SS bayonets. When I thought I had all of the variations new bayonets and information wouls surface from other collectors. I have a very good cross section of SS bayonets in my collection which now numbers over 120 bayonets. John Jacobi has been extremely helpful finding SS bayonets and collectors for me. The SS TK bayonets are what I am now working on. I have collected numerous bayonets from 11 different standarts.

As for the SS VZ-24 bayonets, they are also marked on the crossguards not only in the grips.

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Could our friendly local Moderator remove the bayonet discussion from this white frog discussion to a new and improved Thread:SS-Police Marked Bayonets? Then we can have at it in on a properly named venue.


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FP,

The large TK that you have reproduced above shows that such things can be reproduced (yours lacks some geometry). However, it does not prove that such a TK stamp on equipment is a reproduction. That type of stamp has been found on holsters, leather flash light cxarriers, hatchet covers, saw cases. Leather items were produced in the camps.

SS Daggers have been reproduced to a very high degree of workmanship. Does that mean that all ss daggers are reproductions and fakes? I don't think so

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Joe, Sorry, but it may have to wait until Terry or maybe John takes a look. When I became the moderator of another GDC forum in the “way back” I found that my MAC software did not work with the GDC software.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I have started and stopped my book several times on SS bayonets. When I thought I had all of the variations new bayonets and information wouls surface from other collectors. I have a very good cross section of SS bayonets in my collection which now numbers over 120 bayonets. John Jacobi has been extremely helpful finding SS bayonets and collectors for me. The SS TK bayonets are what I am now working on. I have collected numerous bayonets from 11 different standarts.

As for the SS VZ-24 bayonets, they are also marked on the crossguards not only in the grips.

Richard Kuchta


Richard,
Offhand, I don’t remember anything in our conversations about collecting the individual SS-Totenkopf Standarten. And now you are up to 11 different regimentally TK marked bayonets. That’s quite an accomplishment. As for John Jacobi, he is well known and respected in the collecting community as a collector and the founder of the BCN.

But even he I think, would have to admit that AndyB is very knowledgeable. And the “go to” guy when it comes to quite a bit of the facts/data surrounding German bayonets. And being home based in Slovakia, which is where a number of the Vz 24 bayonets were actually made, I think provides a good “local” perspective from Europe. And as I think we discussed much earlier. While I’ve traveled back and forth in the U.S. attending shows in other states, I’m really more of “West Coast” guy. And that I’ve never seen at first hand some of what you were describing. In spite of the fact that the West Coast at one time was home to a show that brought in dealers/collectors from not just all over the United States. But Germany, England, Japan, and a lot of other countries.

But now that you have made mention of it: “As for the SS VZ-24 bayonets, they are also marked on the crossguards not only in the grips.” Perhaps you could share if the Vz 24 markings are exactly the same as those on the WKC bayonets? Or are they applied differently? Hopefully with some sort of specificity, so that a new collector would know what he was looking at if he happened to encounter one.
FP

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FP,

I will try to make a comparison of the the two different bayonet styles and their markings. The markings on the VZ-24 bayonets are smaller than the markings on the WKC bayonets. In the collecting community, it is the opinion that the VZ-24 bayonets were sent to one or more of the camps for reworking and refurbishment. Why they would rework the grips is beyond me. As I stated before, the grips fit the geometry of the tang & crossguard much better than the original grips.

I have only one VZ-24 bayonet that is TK marked. Inside of the grips are Police Eagle B & SS markings.

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I will try to make a comparison of the the two different bayonet styles and their markings. The markings on the VZ-24 bayonets are smaller than the markings on the WKC bayonets. In the collecting community, it is the opinion that the VZ-24 bayonets were sent to one or more of the camps for reworking and refurbishment. Why they would rework the grips is beyond me. As I stated before, the grips fit the geometry of the tang & crossguard much better than the original grips.

I have only one VZ-24 bayonet that is TK marked. Inside of the grips are Police Eagle B & SS markings.

Richard Kuchta


Richard,
At the moment, I’m starting to get more than a little confused from your statements, which I’m hoping you can clarify. There is a Vz 24 with some kind of a Totenkopf marking on the outside. And some sort of Eagle/B and SS marks on the inside? So this came from a German Police KZ camp rework facility? And if it was on the inside, how would it get back to a Police unit? Also, the other 10 or 11 bayonets are either LAH, SS-VT, SS-Totenkopf, or Waffen SS regimentally Totenkopf marked?

And to help collectors new and old, what I was really looking for was not the size of the markings (which could conceivably vary like with the conventional Waffenamts). But how they were applied ie: etched, stamped, or engraved (conventional or rotary)?

And lastly, I’m afraid that I have to respectfully disagree with you. Many of the factory original CZ bayonets are fitted so tight, as to be almost impossible to remove without damaging the wood at the edges. And I will see if I can find a photo or two to illustrate that, and what the different marking techniques look like, if that is also needed.
FP

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FP,

The SS TK VZ-24 has SS TK markings on the outside and Eagle B & SS markings on the inside of the grips. I got this from a rifle collector in New York State. I have no idea where it came from.

When I say that the grips were reworked on the SS VZ-24 bayonets, the grips were reduced in overall thickness and match the contour of the tang & crossguard very precisely.

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

The SS TK VZ-24 has SS TK markings on the outside and Eagle B & SS markings on the inside of the grips. I got this from a rifle collector in New York State. I have no idea where it came from.

When I say that the grips were reworked on the SS VZ-24 bayonets, the grips were reduced in overall thickness and match the contour of the tang & crossguard very precisely.

Richard Kuchta



Richard,
Thanks for the prompt reply to one of the questions, and my comment regarding the fit of the grips. CZ (and 98K) grips were intentionally made oversize. So Im assuming that the grips you are describing are not new. But simply sanded down, like the many thousands of other Vz 24 reworks.

But unfortunately, it will probably be this evening before I can round up some pictures of etching vs. stamping vs. engraving (conventional and rotary) to help with that aspect of the discussion.
FP

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FP,

I do not know how they reworked the grips to make them thinner and or if they made new ones.

Leaving work shortly so I will not get back to you till Monday.

Thank you for the discussion.

Richard Kuchta

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Eagle B markings on the inside of the grips Rich? And with additional SS markings?


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These are the examples of the only types of police accepted S84/98 pieces that I am familiar with Rich. These are AWS made piece bearing eagly and late Eagle D police acceptance markings.

This is the earlier pol
And this is the later acceptance mark.


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Hello, thanks for FP background and nice words, i am talked with Richard about the Vz.24 TK bayonets some years ago, and he know my opinion about it. Already there are other information in place here.
"Have you ever seen or handled an SS TK bayonet? Have you ever seen or handled an SS Police Bayonet?"
To this not extra friendly words, i could only say that i personnaly own about 3 police bayonets, same as have evidence to have seen on detailed pictures about 4 DH WKC pieces and handled with 2 other pieces in real.
Other point is that i have many background information about the Vz.24 bayonets, i collect them for about 25 years have about 50 pcs and handled about 1000 in the years, i wrote more as 5 articles about Vz.24 bayonets to various Shooting magazines in czech and slovak republic. Thats for information. I have contact to people who worked in Povazska Bystrica and solved with FP and other collectors some of the mysterys of their production.
The study about Vz.24 TK bayonets needs a historical background, firstly the capturing of czechoslovak equipment in Bohemia and Moravia in 1939 were realised through Wehrmacht mainly not through SS, all the equipment were used by 11 Divisions of Wehrmacht in the west campaign. The SS was in early 1939 only small force with own arms system independent from WaA acceptance.
Other very important point this equipment were reworked in 1942 period,because of heavy losses in winter 1941, it was upgraded to german style, problem by Yours Vz.24 bayonets that many are not reworked in this manner. They are dated with wrong date in wrong place.The DH are of various types.So the stamping is for me not constistent. To compare with WKC early production the stamp is same on bayonets around the worlds were couldnt be made a link between the collections. Other point is the Povazska Bystrica production, i have info that it never went to SS same as it was only Wehrmacht accepted with A80 or 607 stamp. So dont need any additional SS acceptance. As post 1942 were equiped all branches with WaA marked pieces.From this i could only say the Vz.24 pieces are not consistent marked and are for me problematic. The KZ guard units in Austria used on real pictures austrian M1895 arms and bayonets, there is no evidence about DH marked M95 bayonets in similar manner.Best regards,Andy

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Andy has posted some of the historical aspects of that time period that cannot justifiably be ignored. Also sharing his own experiences in collecting. And doing an excellent job IMO, in compressing a lot of facts into a brief summation. And while my own CZ collection is more centered around the OEM Czech, German, and some contact pieces. A very good friend of mine specialized heavily in the reworks, both German and Romanian, with maybe a few additional items tossed into the mix. Having examined reasonably comparable numbers of bayonets, with a greater or less emphasis, depending on what it was.

Joe Wotka has posted two types of German Police acceptance marks from Coppel (aka: AWS/ACS). I took a look over the weekend, and can report that Hörster used the same general type as the first one he posted. And that from P. Weyersberg, it’s the same general type as the bottom one, but has a slightly different appearance. So I’m really very curious to see just what an Eagle/B on the inside of a grip of a Vz 24 bayonet might look like.

Earlier I promised some pictures of counterfeiting marking techniques. Which I hope are helpful for those new collectors who might not be that familiar with some of the manufacturing techniques/methods that have been used create “special interest” items. From both legitimate TR period artifacts, and completely new postwar manufactured items.

From left to right: An etch on the blade of a PW fake SS Degen. (This is what a faker might do when he does not want to invest the money into having a metal stamp made.) To its right. A deeper, more three dimensional etch on one of the many postwar etched “SS Unit” marked military issue combat bayonets. And to the right of that, what looks like a conventionally engraved initial, on the pommel cap of a postwar fake/altered SS “Presentation” Degen.

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Here we have what I think is a very interesting group of stamps. Which are all fakes. From left to right: Sigrunes, in this case on the pommel cap of a counterfeit SS-Führerdegen (not surprisingly, it has lots of extra stamps in different locations to “guarantee” its originality). Next, a copy of a German Army “Waffenamt” on the pommel cap of a Degen. Which (if it wasn't a complete fake) would have indicated as having come Waffenfabrik Mauser, the rifle and pistol maker. (Or a little later, from Ceskoslovenská Zbrojovka (CZ) in Brno Czechoslovakia.) And to its right, an Eagle/C German Police stamp. Which (in the real world) would have been more appropriate on something like Mauser, Walther, (etc.) pistols. With the last one being a (supposedly) “Waffen SS” stamp on a bayonet pommel. The message with this one being: If no legitimate stamp exists to copy - why not just create your own version???

Now lets say that you don’t have the time or money to invest in stamps to mark some otherwise ordinary items (or some brand new ones). To make them into much higher priced “special interest” items. What to do? One of the ways, which is more common than some folks might think, is to use rotary engraving. (Think an old style dentist’s drill, a ‘Dremel’ tool, or perhaps a shop that does pantograph rotary engraving.) With the bottom image showing one of the all new manufacture rotary engraved “Krupp” daggers. With the inset showing what some of the burrs/cutters look like (but with a smaller diameters than shown).

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And lastly, for comparison purposes, a factory original prewar CZ bayonet grip. Showing the close fit, and the typical excess material that protrudes above the metal surfaces. The same kind of overhang that is typically seen in varying degrees (usually less) with period OEM German bayonets. Best Regards to All, FP

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Joe,

The bayonet that is marked with Eagle B on the inside of the grips and on the Frog is also TK marked. The frog is marked with a TK over the Eagle B, over the serial # of the bayonet.In a prior discussion with FP, I may have called the police bayonet a VZ-24; however it is a 84/98. I also have at least 5 other police bayonets marked similar to what you are showing that are also SS marked.

I have been working on a book for a period of years and things are finally comming together. I have cracked the TK code on the bayonets early this spring due to the acquisition of several key pieces. I can share some data with you & FP. Please contact me. I also extend an invitation to you Joe to see my collection.

FP, the VZ-24 bayonet that I thought was police marked was actually a DOT coded bayonet with dual TK marked grips.

Richard K

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Andy,

I did not mean to use hard words as you say. But I completely disagree with what you are saying about the SS not marking bayonets. The SS marked VZ rifles. Why would they not mark the bayonets? Why would the SS renumber some of the GEW rifles? They would X out numbers and put on new ones. Do you know why? Are you saying that all weapons with SS markings are fakes???

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FP,

I agree that reproduction stamps and engravings can be made and what you have posted helps to show the extent that people will go to to produce a reproduction item. However, you do not acknowledge that there are legitimate SS marked rifles, Lugers, and bayonets.

I have never seen a reproduction SS marked bayonet that came close to an original. Markings, placement of markings, blades, & frogs.

I have capture papers with some of my bayonets and the capture papers can be evaluated at any time to substantiate the SS bayonets. We all know that paper work can be forged.

FP I have recently obtained some extremely rare SS bayonets dated 1945. They are phosphate finished, consecutive numbered, and unissued. The were liberated by a corporal from a Heavy Pontoon Boat Regiment that helped to liberate a work camp / SS Weapons Depot in Germany in 1945. Also have the capture papers with them.

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

Joe,

The bayonet that is marked with Eagle B on the inside of the grips and on the Frog is also TK marked. The frog is marked with a TK over the Eagle B, over the serial # of the bayonet. In a prior discussion with FP, I may have called the police bayonet a VZ-24; however it is a 84/98. I also have at least 5 other police bayonets marked similar to what you are showing that are also SS marked.

I have been working on a book for a period of years and things are finally coming together. I have cracked the TK code on the bayonets early this spring due to the acquisition of several key pieces. I can share some data with you & FP. Please contact me. I also extend an invitation to you Joe to see my collection.

FP, the VZ-24 bayonet that I thought was police marked was actually a DOT coded bayonet with dual TK marked grips.

Richard K


Richard,

I’m at a little bit of a loss in understanding the above, so let me see if I got it right:

1) There is a bayonet with an Eagle/B on the inside of the grips. With a Death’s Head (or TK) over an Eagle B and the bayonet’s serial number on the back of the frog. But the bayonet is not a Vz 24, it’s a 98K (84/98). And there are at least 5 other (84/98 (?) German Police bayonets that you have. Which are Police marked similar to those Joe posted, but all having some additional SS markings.

2) ............. Thanks for the invitation. And I will send you an email, so that you will have an electronic link for data as we did earlier (it’s still the same one).

3) As for the bayonet that you thought was Police marked. It’s actually a “dot” marked Vz 24 (1942 or 1943)? With Death’s Head markings on the inside of both grips? Is there anything else about it that might have made you think that it was Police?

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com

FP,

I agree that reproduction stamps and engravings can be made and what you have posted helps to show the extent that people will go to to produce a reproduction item. However, you do not acknowledge that there are legitimate SS marked rifles, Lugers, and bayonets.

I have never seen a reproduction SS marked bayonet that came close to an original. Markings, placement of markings, blades, & frogs.

I have capture papers with some of my bayonets and the capture papers can be evaluated at any time to substantiate the SS bayonets. We all know that paper work can be forged.

FP I have recently obtained some extremely rare SS bayonets dated 1945. They are phosphate finished, consecutive numbered, and unissued. The were liberated by a corporal from a Heavy Pontoon Boat Regiment that helped to liberate a work camp / SS Weapons Depot in Germany in 1945. Also have the capture papers with them.

Richard Kuchta


As a group I’m OK with the idea of SS rifles. But I don’t think that every example that I’ve seen is legitimate, with fakes creeping into that collecting arena for a long period of time. With pistols I would defer to Joe Wotka’s judgment - as a well known very knowledgeable specialist in that area. Bayonets and frogs? I’ve seen many more fakes than I have originals. And I’m not talking about the “SS” unit etched blade variety, but the more serious attempts to fake them.

I also pay some attention to markings placement, and what they might at first glance look like. But I also know that some individuals (and/or groups) make reasonably decent copies of high quality period daggers and and hangers. With copies of markings, or new added ones. Said items causing a lot of headaches for a number of collectors, with sometimes very long discussions taking place. And if a good look at this “Krupp” dagger is any indication. How much work went into creating it? And what does that say about already manufactured items that have clearly been reworked? How hard could it be to add a few extra marks, versus making a complete dagger?

As for the 1945 dated bayonets with SS markings, are they 98K’s from Solingen, that were manufactured with a phosphate finish? If so, maybe I can help you. Having a new (or virtually new) very late 1944 dated, phosphate finished 98K, that could be used for comparison purposes with the type of finish used. Or is it some type of bayonet other than the 98K?

Regards, FP

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" But I completely disagree with what you are saying about the SS not marking bayonets."
"Why would the SS renumber some of the GEW rifles? Are you saying that all weapons with SS markings are fakes???"
When You readed my previous answers You will see that i wrote about 2 or 3 real variation on frogs and one real stamp on bayonets. There is important to dont mix period of aquisition of the material for SS. Certainly is very important to speak about early prewar period.The majority of real DH stamps were found on reworked Gew98 rifles changed to Kar98k configuration, important thing is that majority were Nitro commerzial proofed and were reworked and obtained without any army links, it was realised commerzially by small firms and proofed commerzially too. I dont know what are the DH there for meaning but assume it was done in property manner. Unfortunally a short time after find some of the rifles were started the fakery hysteria. Similar stamps occured on items where should be not be. In today market are majority of DH or SS stamps fakes, so is hard to determine the real ones.
It would be certainly interesting to view the key pieces about You talked?
Here i will add some classic fakes.



baionnette2.jpg (16.3 KB, 98 downloads)
Last edited by AndyB; 11/09/2010 10:14 AM.
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Very nice looking is the cultural SS marking of Prof.Diebitsch.

gerss1.jpg (22.6 KB, 96 downloads)
Last edited by AndyB; 11/09/2010 10:17 AM.
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To dot marked Sg24(t) bayonet, the majority of were marked with E/63 proof which means the Army acceptance inspector was there for all branches of Wehrmacht and W-SS ,they dont need stamp additional property stamp and certainly not inside of grips. But maybe You could add some pictures?

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FP,

Last night I went through my collection and to pull the correct bayonets. When I had showed my bayonets last during the early Summer, some of the bayonets were put away in the wrong storage containers. I pulled the SS Eagle B Police last night and it is a VZ-24 bayonet. I brought it to work today to get some pictures. Please send me a link. Joe will you also send me a link so i can send you some pictures.

I have the other SS police marked bayonets pulled.

Richard Kuchta

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Andy,

You say that the inspectors were there to watch over the production of bayonets. The majority of the bayonets used by the SS came out of the work camps. VZ-24 bayonets were renumbered by the SS. Why? Very time consuming and was it necessary? In the collector's community of SS bayonets, it is believed that internal marked grips reflects camp fabrication & or rework. Internal marked grips are also found on SS 84/98 & 98/05 bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

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The germans didnt made any Vz.24 bayonets, they only ordered production in Waffenwerke Bruenn plants, by reworks it could be certainly done in camp, but there is no reason for stamping parts of the bayonets that are hidden as inner side of grips? When we assume the marking is a property marking of SS has no practical sense mark a hidden part with this marking. By DH on crossguard it must be certainly examined but without picture is nothing more to say. best regards,Andy

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Andy,

You offer your opinions on the markings on SS bayonets. I respect your opinion. However, your statements are subjective and not based upon any fact. I must agree that renumbering bayonets,rifles, & pistols does not make sense and marking the inside of the grips of bayonets where you can not see does not make sense; however it was done by the SS. As Joe Wotka says "the hobby is a learning process." We need to determine why this was done. The SS had a reason. To say that the SS didn't mark their weapons and that all existing legitimate SS marked weapons are faked is only your opinion. There is a large SS weapons collecting community out there and their opinion greatly differs from yours.

Richard Kuchta

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Richard,

There are a number of items to be addressed, so I will try and be brief. We have confirmation of the Police marked Vz. 24 (Andy - new manufacture like a “dot” would be a Sg 24(t) without the muzzle ring?) And as we speak, you should already have an email link.

Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Andy,

You say that the inspectors were there to watch over the production of bayonets. The majority of the bayonets used by the SS came out of the work camps. VZ-24 bayonets were renumbered by the SS. Why? Very time consuming and was it necessary? In the collector's community of SS bayonets, it is believed that internal marked grips reflects camp fabrication & or rework. Internal marked grips are also found on SS 84/98 & 98/05 bayonets.

Richard Kuchta



This really is a fairly complex topic, so it's going to be greatly summarized. And I’m doing it from memory, not having the time to pull references.

Time is the critical element with reworks in general, and how KZ labor was employed. There is period film, and still images, showing what appear to be KZ workers in factories making what look like new production rifles. And if I remember it correctly, it was Albert Speer, the Minister of Armaments and War Production who made complaints about not getting enough workers. The poor diet for workers and other issues. Facts which were greatly hindering his efforts. And then there was Himmler. Who was trying to get contracts from the OKH (Wehrmacht) for arms production. The development of the “V” weapons, aircraft component production, etc. etc.

So while the idea of “camp” production might possibly work in the early years. What were they actually using the limited resources for that they had in ............... let’s say 1945??

Originally Posted By: AndyB
............. By DH on crossguard it must be certainly examined but without picture is nothing more to say. best regards,Andy


Which is why I would like to also get a look at the 1945 dated phosphate finished bayonets, having spent at least some time in looking at the “last ditch” production items. Because with just a verbal mention, just what is it that we are actually talking about??

PS: Do you have all of the years in your collection? From the German takeover/occupation to 1945?

Regards, FP

Last edited by Fred Prinz - FP; 11/09/2010 11:28 PM.
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FP,

I have no other bayonets like the 1945 dated, phosphate finished, consecutive numbered, unissued SS Bayonets. These bayonets are unique becaused they are salvaged, reworked bayonets. You can see some traces where the MFG name was not completely buffed off. I agree that priorities in 1945 had to be extremely great so why go through all of the work of refurbishing bayonets? The rifle that was taken at the same time as the bayonets at the SS Weapons depot was not SS marked;however, it was no doubt refurbished and packed in grease. The rifle is now in a SS weapons collection in Albany, New York. I do not have the answers as to why things were done as they were by the SS

Richard Kuchta

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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
FP,

I have no other bayonets like the 1945 dated, phosphate finished, consecutive numbered, unissued SS Bayonets. These bayonets are unique becaused they are salvaged, reworked bayonets. You can see some traces where the MFG name was not completely buffed off. I agree that priorities in 1945 had to be extremely great so why go through all of the work of refurbishing bayonets? The rifle that was taken at the same time as the bayonets at the SS Weapons depot was not SS marked;however, it was no doubt refurbished and packed in grease. The rifle is now in a SS weapons collection in Albany, New York. I do not have the answers as to why things were done as they were by the SS

Richard Kuchta


Richard,

I understand that the 1945 dated phosphate finished bayonets are by themselves unique. Also understanding that the "dot" bayonet that you mentioned is most likely going to be of 1942 or 1943 manufacture. But it's been quite a while since this topic has been discussed. And you seem to have been fairly active over a relatively extensive period since then.

So what my question was directed at were the dates that you've mentioned as being on the items themselves, with 1945 as the acknowledged end point. Do they extend back to the German takeover/occupation of Czechoslovakia? Or are there any gaps in the dates of the ones that you have in your collection?

Best Regards, FP

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Hello FP thanks for the link, very interesting reading, the Vz.24 bayonets as already in the name Vzor or Modell is a czechoslovak item and was designed with a barell ring, there should be difference to the german reworks and new contract should be called SG24(t) same as rifle was called G24(T).Its confirmed that not all army reworks are similar to the new production.
To Richard, without seeing the reworks is hard anything to say, but renumbering has nothing to do only with SS , the army and other branches realised the reworks of Vz.24 to SG24(t) by various smaller division works and there exist more as 10 different variations, same as many were serialed in the process of refurbishment.
I have examined a small amount of commerzial blades from the war period and from various paper documents is confirmed that the blankos , some of the WKC served by W-SS, and have no markings at all, no SS in circles, no DH on crossguards, no SS Wa1 or other SSZZA4 stamps, no stamps on grips nothing, it must be not stamped with SS to be a SS weapon. Same is the police equipment, marked only with small stamps on exact places. Thats for me the point that these pieces were overlooked for 50 years are in reality the W-SS pieces.best regards.Andy

Last edited by AndyB; 11/10/2010 12:49 AM.
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FP,

I brought my DOT 42 to work today. There is one WA on the pommel above the retension latch slide. WA could be 59? The The grips and the scabbard have been numbered 28. The Inside of the grips are both SS marked.

The 45 dated bayonets are 84/98s.

Richard K

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