UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum PSS (Polizei Seitengewehr Sonderausfuhrung)

Me too, for my blue collar wallet $

steve,

Nate,

Please post pics, I'd love to see your new piece. I think there's a general consensus now that the SS link to this sidearm was more a result of dealer puffing on the initials "PSS" than the actual useage which seems (form the regs) to simply be a new model "special" police bayonet.

We do know many policemen held dual ranks in the police & SS but I don't believe this bayonet was indicative of it. A better indication of dual membership would probably be a period SS knot on a police bayonet.



Fitz,

I had forgotten about this thread & frankly I'm surprised it's still around considering GD's software as of late. Thanks for bringing it back up.

I've seen PSSs listed for $4K+ now for a few years although I don't know if they sell for that sum. They do pop up from time to time, sometimes reasonably. I have a good friend who had one fall into his lap VERY reasonably recently. They are out there.


Steve,

If I find a decent one, maybe we'll talk about a trade

Here you have the proper regulations from the "Waffentechnischer Leitfaden für die Ordnungspolizei".

The drawing in the book.

The names (there is an upper row of bayonets in the book).

And finally the exact description of the P.S.S. bayonet.
This certain bayonet for sure did not have more relationship to the SS than the police itself.
Nevertheless a rare and for serious collectors very desirable edged weapon.
Regards,

Is there any indication as to the purpose of the PSS or who would/should be wearing it in this on any other publication you know of?

Sorry Houston, no, I am not aware of any.
Regards,

In Leni Riefenstal's documentary of the 1934 party rally, "Triumph des Willens", there is a sequence in the congress hall (fairly late into the movie) which shows an SS-troop acting as an aisle minder. He is wearing what could be a modified 98.05, similar to a P.S.S. There is certainly no police insignia on the grip, but an SS-bayo troddell can clearly be seen. My camera and computer skills are not up to capturing this image but if anyone has this film on dvd, has the requisite skills, and can find this interesting clip and capture it on a decent still image, it could then be brought to this forum for analysis and discussion.

Barry Brown

Hey guys.

I've spent the last hour looking for a photo I KNOW I've seen, I can still see it in my head, of an LAH Honor Guard with an S98/05, and a white 98/05 frog on his belt. I CAN'T FIND THE DAMN THING, but I know I've looked at it several times. Needless to say it's a bit frustrating. However, I was under the impression that it was generally excepted that unmodified (with the exception of the typical Weimar mods) 98/05s were worn by the LAH at some early point.

However, I stumbled across something in a book that I think we'll all find quite interesting:

"Edged Weapons of Hitler's Germany," Robin Lumsden, page 119 and 122:

"In 1920, plain Army surplus M.98/05 service bayonets, with their single long curved quillons, were issued as symbols of authority for everyday wear by members of the new provincial police forces set up in terms of the Weimar constitution. A FULL-DRESS VERSION OF THIS SIDEARM PATTERN, KNOWN AS THE POLIZEISEITENGEWEHR SONDERAUSFUHRUNG, OR PSS, WAS CREATED AT THE SAME TIME FOR PRIVATE PURCHASE AND USE ON CEREMONIAL OCCASIONS. IT WAS ENTIERLY NICKEL PLATED WITH OAKLEAF DECORATION TO THE HILT AND CROSSGUARD. THE WEIMAR POLICE EMBLEM, COMPRISING A SIX-SIDED STAR WITH A STATIC AND WEAPONLESS REPUBLICAN EAGLE IN THE CENTRE, WAS AFFIXED TO THE STAGHORN GRIP, WHILE THE NICKLED BLADE WAS MODIFIED TO INCORPORATE A SPEAR POINT AND WAS CONTAINED IN A PLAIN BLUED STEEL SCABBARD. WORN WITH A KNOT IN PROVINCIAL COLOURS, THE PSS WAS THE FIRST IN WHAT WAS SOON TO BECOME A LONG LINE OF POLICE DRESS BAYONET VARIATIONS." On page 122 it then states "...the M.20 PSS bayonet continued to by produced in small numbers until 1940 as an alternative form of private-purchase sidearm."

I'm not sure if these statements from this book have been mentioned elsewhere in discussions on this forum, but I certainly haven't seen any info as firm as this on the PSS anywhere else. Now, I've been collecting long enough to know that one cannot, and should never, take a book as accurate without further research, especially when only one book seems to contain said info. But the author makes these claims with such authority, it seems reasonable to assume that he had found some source, or sources, reliable enough to make these claims without any indication of uncertainty.

Again, I'm not a 3rd Reich collector. At least, not anymore. I'm interested in knowing what others here think about the validity of these claims.

Cheers!
Nate

Not correct IMO. I have never seen or heard of a PSS with the Prussian Police grip emblem. Also IMO they were produced sometime in the early Third Reich years from bayonets that were government property.

Nate,

I agree with Houston on this issue. I think Robin was wrong on this as the PSS was a Third Reich creation and should have the M1936 Polizei eagle and not the Weimar Republic period star grip insignia. The newly manufactured PSS scabbards usually have an NS Zeit WaA that indicates when they were reworked and issued. I suspect he got the standard reworked Prussian Police bayonets that originally had a star grip insignia confused with the PSS.

It's great to hear from you, George. I was hoping you would join in. And Mr. Coates, thanks for your reply as well. I'm in a bit of a hurry, but I am going to post a few rushed pics of my PSS for all to see. I haven't made any attempt to remove the dirt and grime built up in some areas. I have noticed that while this example has a slotted press stud, all the others I have seen thus far do not.

More pics. Enjoy!

and more...

Last one for now...

Nate,

For someone who doesn't collect 3R items, you certainly have an eye for the rare & beautiful. Your PSS looks to be in really nice shape as well. I've never seen (or heard of) a PSS bayonet with Weimar star so I'd have to agree with George on this.

Of the PSSs I've seen, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 had some sort of unit or inventory marking on them. This is the first that I've seen with the "H" but considering the inventory number of 72, it's a good possibility there's more out there with the same city mark.

Is there any marking on the frog's reverse? Thanks for sharing it with us.

Nate,

Congrats, you have a perfectly original PSS in excellent condition. Don Maus has identified this property marking as indicating the Schutzpolizei of Hannover (along with Hn.#).

Thanks for the kind replies, gents!

Billy, there was another SchuPo Hannover marked PSS reported on another topic in this forum. I believe it was seen online for sale. I'm too damn lazy at the moment to find a link for you: Just got back from a 13 hour day working all over NYC, and I'm pretty beat! I'm kinda curious to know if the other S.H. PSS also has a slotted press stud. Have you seen any other PSS with a slotted press stud??

Billy, the marking on the frog is VD HORST, Leiden, 1941 (I actually did mention this along with the other S.H. unit marking in my first post here, but I can't blame anyone for not wanting to read my often loquacious rants!). I'm definitely interested in compiling a list of the unit markings found so far on the PSS.

Yes, for me, rare and beautiful is the only way to go. I've got pretty high standards for my collection.

Thanks for the congrats, George. But this really isn't my bayonet. I am merely holding it till it finds its rightful owner. It's certainly a great bayo, and a great example of a great bayo at that, but there are, I am sure, plenty of collectors out there for whom a chance to have this in their collection means far more than it does to me. Don't get me wrong, I fully intend to replace it with an Imperial German bayo, or perhaps bayos, with comparable beauty and rarity!

On that note, if anyone is interested, or knows someone who may be, especially those who also have Imperial bayos, please feel free to PM me. I know it probably won't be easy to find someone who collects both 3rd Reich and Imperial bayos seriously enough to have an Imperial bayo worth trading. One way or another, however, this PSS will make someone else very happy, and in return, I will be thrilled as well! I have to say that this find has been the best of my short collecting career thus far.

Cheerio!
Nate

I came across this PSS with this strange frog at this link:
http://www.johnsonreferenceboo...ets/POLICE/22898.htm

Has anyone seen a frog like that before??

Nate,

Were you able to make a sale before they pulled it?

A bit late in joining this topic again, but I am amazed at that author's assertion about a some kind of M20 P.S.S. with the the "Weimar police emblem" on the grip plate. People pay money to read such BS? To begin with, the Weimar police emblem on the grip was the insignia of the Prussian police. There was no Weimar police or police bayonet. The stag grip bayonets with the six sides star with the eagle in the center was a Prussian M29 Seitengewehr. That is the date of the first standardized Prussian police bayonet. Such information has always been readily available in George's book and Vol.IV of Johnson's series, also found in thread on this forum and others. Why someone even think these were created in 1920, when Germany was in the throes of civil war the the Allied Occupation Authority was requiring the German states to de-emphasize the militaristic aspects of their police forces.

Houston, the 1937/38 German Police Manual No.13 pictures the P.S.S. and indicates that they were then being produced from older blades. Do have anything in your references to support you contention that these blades (P.S.S.) were produced in the early Third Reich years, which I assume you to mean 1933-1935?

There is some collateral discussion on other forums that gives some indication of the refurbisher of the P.S.S.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262282&highlight=machete
Examining the blades springs of examples of my survival machetes and P.S.S., I found identical WaA883 markings. The machetes were produced by Alcoso. The WaA883 is a common mark found on WWII German edged weapons, but would there be any assumption that Alcoso used these WaA883 springs when they reworked the P.S.S.?

Joe, For what it's worth, I think that the WaA883 Waffenamt(s) would put it into the 1940/41 time frame. With possibly some “wiggle room” at either end in 1939 and 1942, with maybe a slightly greater tilt into 1942 for combat bayonets. Andy B has the best data, but that's my immediate recollection. FP