UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum White frog for K98 bayonet

Hello
What do you feel about this white frog ?
Thnaks
Alain

Looks old!!!

I am very sceptical about this, the front pouch is different probably not genuine leather, there are no rivets, the stamps looks little strange. You should wait for other experts, as i am not focused on frogs.best regards,Andy

I'd go as far as to say the frog is original , as andy states the rivets are gone , but the holes still remain , and it has been painted/treated with a white substance , what that is exactly i'm not sure. (Iwork in the paint industry and i dont know without it in hand) I believe it was done a long time ago , be that 10,30,60 years ago is going to be the question ? , worth a punt if i'ts cheap
Regards
Will.

p.s. the stitching that hold the pouch on the reverse look a bit sloppy ? slightly different to the rest, could be my eyes though!

For myself, I don't see good evidence that rivets were installed vs. smaller diameter holes from now possibly missing stitching. And the white coloration inside inside of the pouch (and frog stud hole) is also not good from my perspective, as the Germans as a rule left these areas unfinished. (ie: natural/brown leather). FP

FP , the "WHITE WASH" is not good , do you think this is a fake frog ? i will stand corrected (said the man in the orthopedic shoes) lol

Will, I think that the frog was painted (white washed - whatever) after if was made. And I forgot to mention that I find the way that the white finish has cracked around the lettering I think is also troubling.

So, absent a first hand inspection, from my perspective I have to put it into at least the "altered" box. And possibly a complete fake - but would need to take a look at some other things like what it smells like etc. Best Regards, FP

Hello guys
Thanks for you comments about this frog.
Best regards
Alain

I believe this is a repair postwar job, i assume the piece was damaged on front pouch, and the all stiching was replased same as front part, the rivets were not added and the overall was white over painted. I believe there should be examined thouroughly like mentioned FP. best regards,Andy

Hi Andy
I have been told it was worn by SS in the 30ies for presentation ?
Regards
Alain

The SS did use white leather gear for a period during the 30's, but this ain't it.
Does anyone remember the old Shinola liquid shoe polish they made in white for Nurse's and Saddle shoes? If this isn't it, it's something very close. The originality of the frog is really unimportant at this point, as it has essentially been ruined anyway.

That works for me. The leather finish in the image is all wrong for a period item. With no doubt in my mind that the frog was intended for the "collector market". FP

Thanks for these new points of detail.
Alain

If it had an original white finish, then it would have been worn by the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH)
Regards
Will

HI HAS ANYONE GOT A PHOTO OF ANOTHER SO WE CAN COMPARE.I HAVE SEEN PHOTOS OF THEM IN WEAR AS WELL.
THANKS DIPPY

Heres one thats for sale on regimentals site. a bit dear but looks to be real

Also by a certain segment of the Polizei, I believe. Perhaps Orpo will expand on this point.

As far as I have known, the only accepted white frogs were made by Fischer, Berlin. I believe they were primarily used by Polizei units on parade duty & had limited use by the Liebstandarte on a diplomatic trip to Japan. The original frog posted in this thread looks to be a complete reproduction IMHO.

This one was purchased from the late Chip Gambino. Legit examples are not cheap but do create a striking appearance, don't they?

A view from the front.

Billy
That is one incredible bayonet.
Congrats
Stingray

B:

Stingray is right, that is a wow!

Is that a Pack with offset rivets like that? Did they do the offset rivet with police bayos like they did with their etches?

J

hi billy
This bayonet is SUPERB !!!
Klinge

White frogs from the 30's and 40's were still in use with the German army in the 80's..

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for the kind words. The frog was purchased from chip Gambino many years ago, sadly his site seems to no longer be in operation. Both the frog & knot were added to the bayonet later, it came to me naked. I've seen white A. Fischer, Berlin frogs with both 137 & 1938 dates & they all pretty much resembled this one. I liked it because it showed a little period wear but still remained quite serviceable. Actually, the frog shows significantly more wear than the bayonet which is very near mint & quite possibly unissued. No doubt one of my personal favorites in the stable.

For any who don't recognize the model, it is a rare PSS (Polizei Seitengewehr Sonderausfuhrung), here is a GD thread with plenty more information on them. I think they're still working the kinks out of the search function on the new GD software as I couldn't find this thread on the site search. It took a Google search to resurrect it from what I thought was an early demise.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=140566


John,

I don't believe I've ever seen a PSS by Pack. This one is by Gebruder Hartkopf &, for those of you that are mark buts, is also distributor marked. So far as I know, the offset rivets are a standard of the model type & not a specific manufacturer's variation. Pack police bayonets are not too common & those I've seen all seemed to be pretty early in construction. Most had a couple of distinctive details that I believe were specific to Pack although offset rivets were not something I'd ever observed on them.

Billy, kind of weird but sometimes works:

Go to bottom lower left of screen. See 'Display Options'.

Change 'Show Topics' to 'from all dates' and click 'Change'..

It should show all the back pages from the old GDC forum. Then sometimes you'll find what your searching for!

The white frogs were specified for use with S84.98s in parade dress by units of the Schutzpolizei (Reich and Gemeinden). It matched their white belt and bandeliers. Their band and fife/bugle units also wore white. The Gendarmerie wore brown parade dress accessories.

I am sure the LSAH wore white in all parade circumstances.

Darn the time limitations of the edit function.

The white frogs were specified for sue with the S84/98s when the Schupo were carrying rifles. Without the rifle, the Polizei Seitengewehr was carried. The mot. Gendarmerie carried the S84/98s at all times in their brown frogs.

Billy, I have an example of white frog produced by Fischer and "Po" accepted in 1937 and Larsen (1938) but with a "Po 39" acceptance stamp. The second example seems to be of slightly larger size.

Joe,

Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I remember reading somewhere that Fischer was the only legitimate white frog. As luck would have it, the only white ones I've seen that looked good were by Fischer but it doesn't surprise me there would be another maker. Could you post a pic of your Larsen?

The SS did use white frogs with their 98/05 & 84/98 bayonets. All of the SS frogs that I have seen and those in my collection are made from a substitute material such as compressed paper. the white finish is similiar to a white enamel paint. The White SS Frogs are marked with the typical SS Property Mark on the backside of the frog.

If you look closely at the LAH Band pictures taken during their performance for Hitler's birthday, you can see the 98/05 bayonets in the white 98/05 frogs.

Richard Kuchta

Billy, I will try and get some pics up this evening.

Rich, do you mean that all SS formations had issued white leather for parade, or only the LSAH? Do you have any photos of it in use by any other units that the LSAH? By typical SS property mark, do you mean the VA marking? Someone screwed around with my "Po" marked white frog and added an LAH stamp. Totally bogus, but it didn't destroy the police marking.

Joe,

The white SS Frogs were used by only the LAH (other than the police units). The typical SS Property Mark consists of a Death Head. The Death Heads vary in size and location depending upon which Division.

Richard Kuchta

Rich, why would those marks differ so greatly from the SS VA markings found on standard black bayonet frogs.

Joe,

I should clarify even more. The size and position of the Death Head varies for the SS/VT. There are 3 specific positions where the Death Head is stamped on the back of the frog. Why the different sizes of Death Heads, I do not know. There are also the SS/VT WW1 frogs that have the Death Head & Date (very early).

For the SS/TV there is usually only one location for the Standarte Property Stamp. SS/TV Property Stamp can be a combination of Death Head with numbers; Death Head with numbers & Date; Death Head with Letters, Numbers; and sometimes date. Bayonet serial numbers are sometimes found on the SS/TV Frogs.

Waffen SS camp made frogs can be found completely sterile or with the SS VA stamp. SS VA Stamp can also accompany the frog manufacturer logo.

Richard Kuchta

Richard, are you establishing a time line by identifying SS/VT and SS/TV (pre-1939)frogs as being marked with the TK in variations with dates and numbers. And Waffen-SS (post 1939) frogs either sterile or with VA stamp?

Speaking in general, there has been a LOT of fakery where supposed "SS" bayonet frogs are concerned. With one of the problems in making a connection for example to the Waffen SS, being that it did not 'officially' exist as such until early 1940, and some other issues. And the existence of VA marked frogs in 1938, and I believe 1937 as well, but I will need to check. FP

Hey FP! Get out the vote.

I was going to remark about earlier VA stamped frogs. Mine is dated "38" with maker number in the 400 range. Will photo tonight.

Here are the five police issue bayonet frogs I have: from left to right a 1929 Fischer made brown for the newly adopted M29 Prussian Polizeiseitengewehr for Landjagerei, Fischer 1936 Po issue for Schutzpolizei, 1937 Larsen white issue (PO 37) for Schupo parade, 1937 Schweyer brown issue Gend, 1938 Fischer white issue for Schupo (Po 39). The 1937 Larsen white frog is entirely of leather, while the 1938 Fisher is of composite materials that ties in with the decree that parade dress accoutrements should be made of artificial materials to conserve leather.

View of the rear but unfortunately I reversed the line-up, so the description should read right to left.

Two views of the reverse markings of some: the 1929 Landjagerei and 1936 Schupo, both Fischer.

And a view of the two white frog makers: the 1937 Larsen and the 1938 Fischer.
It was the Fischer to which someone applied the LAH letters in an ignorant attempt to fake a Leibstandarte frog.

Finally three views of the VA/SS 1938 marked frog.

Hello
Another Police frog with Po but without maker mark.
Regards
Alain

Joe,

I am sorry if I am confusing the issue. Let me try again. I do have and have seen Waffen SS Bayonet Frogs with the Death Head on the back of the frog. The only bayonet frogs that I have seen the SS VA stamped on have been on the Waffen SS Bayonets. I have never seen a SS VA stamp on a SS/TV Bayonet Frog. The sterile frogs have all been on the Waffen SS Marked 84/98 bayonets as well as the SS marked VZ-24 Bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

Joe, A very nice group of frogs. The 1937 date for VA marked frogs is confirmed. The white finished impregnated canvas(?) 1938 Fischer is a rare one, having seen it also in brown, and at least one in black.

As for the Vz 24 bayonets (and rifles). The photographs that come immediately to mind show Czech configured bayonets (ie: pommel bright finished with full muzzle rings) and rifles. What I don’t remember offhand, is the date mentioned that the Czech issues were supposed to be turned over to the German Army, to be replaced with German weapons. FP

FP,

I agree that there are fake SS marked frogs out there. I have seen SS Fake frogs that are marked with the SS VA Stamp; Runes in a circle; Runes in a circle & RZM in a circle stamp. However, I have never seen a fake SS Frog with a Death Head.

The SS VZ-24 bayonets are a good place to start when documenting Waffen SS Bayonets & Frogs. The bayonets are dated.

The majority of the SS TV bayonets & frogs are dated. One can produce a very good time line on these bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

Richard, For myself, I can’t say that I’ve never seen a fake “Death’s Head” marking. There are others that know the legitimate rifles much better than I do, and it’s been a while since I’ve looked at them. But with that said, I can remember some with fake “Death’s Head” markings so I’m reasonably certain that if a stamp can be made to mark steel. That it’s even easier to make one that is able to stamp a much softer material.

As for the Vz 24 bayonets, we know that whatever was already in the Czech armory’s was available to the Germans, and that some portion of it was given to the SS. But we also know that the dates on the blades are Czechoslovakian, from before it was taken over. And that the first bayonets made under German supervision were identical to the CZ bayonets, but with undated German markings. Also, that the relatively large number of the subsequently OEM modified bayonets made to German specifications from Povázská Bystrica were undated. And that it was not until 1942 with those from Ceskoslovenská Zbrojovka Brno, that we see dates. Which is a relatively long time after the Waffen SS had become heavily engaged in combat in Russia. And was being supplied with both heavy and light weapons as a part of the Wehrmacht.

Attached: A side by side showing some of the markings. On the left at the top a full MR Bystrica, with Brno on the bottom. In the middle a side by side with Bystrica to the left. And to its right, a later “dot” (Brno) set of markings on the standard factory OEM bayonet made to German specifications. Not shown is the factory OEM modified bayonet from Bystrica which is undated, but believed to be circa 1941, and otherwise identical to those later bayonets from Brno. Regards, FP

I agree with you on the TK marks on leather. This is a hotly debated subject concerning P08 holsters with a large TK on the cover flap in particular.

I concern is what does a TK impression on a piece of leather signify. Is it a property stamp or acceptance stamp? If so, to what unit does it signify ownership or for what unit was it accepted. When seen on rework G-98s, the mark is found as an acceptance with the proper SS-Za number on the bbl. and sometimes a single TK on the stock.

It is intersting that a large quantity of Czech helmets went to the ORPO for use by their training btls. in 1939, but those troopers were still issued S98/05s to go with their K98a weapons. Still, they did receive the Czech machine guns, but you don't see many bayonets.

Gentlemen,

You are correct that a Death Head Stamp could be made and used. However, how many frogs have you seen with such a stamp? I have at least 10 complete rigs consisting of: combat belt, bayonet & frog, & bullet pouches. Also have some with a bread bag and canteen. Each piece is marked with a TK. Also I have capture papers that list the serial numbers of several of my bayonets, which are SS marked. Some SS rifle slings are also TK marked.

The large SS TK on the flap of some SS reworked lugers is a legitimate stamp. I also have the same large TK on a leather carrying case for a flashlight. There was alot of leather work done in some of the work camps. This large TK is also seen on leather tool carriers that engineers or pioneers would use.

SS VZ-24 bayonets used by the SS were reworked and in most cases fitted with new grips. Inside of the grips are SS markings and dates.

Richard Kuchta

Billy, here is another white frog maker: Kern Klager & Cie. They were a maker of police P08 holsters. I cannot make out a Po marking on the reverse of this one found on the Regimentals.com site. The marking above the maker mark is illegible. Or can someone make it out? But here we have a white parade dress bayonet frog for either the police or LSAH.

I believe FP is right on the czechoslovak captured material, there is no sign of stamping material with SS or DH same as no marked on WKC blankos or other commerzial bayonets that were used by W-SS. Some exception are from the early prewar period. All the upgrades of old Gew98 were mainly commerzial done.There is no reason to marking inside of grips for SS property, as is no visible by normal view. Certainly not on Vz.24 bayonets.best regards,Andy
PS its confirmed that already 9 of 10 DH or SS markings are fakes as its very interesting link the items with SS or W-SS. Its sale politics.

Andy,

I completely disagree with your comment concerning that VZ-24 bayonets and WKC marked blades which were used by the SS were not marked by the SS. What data do you base this statement on? Many of these above mentioned blades exist in SS Weapons Collections. How many SS bayonets and rifles have you seen and handled? My collection is available for you and FP to examine at anytime.
Have you ever seen or handled an SS TK bayonet? Have you ever seen or handled an SS Police Bayonet?

Richard Kuchta

Richard, While we have never met face to face, you may remember that we spoke I think a few times on the telephone was it 7 or 8 (?) years ago.

And that earlier on the forum, I disagreed with what you said on page 562 of Tom Wittmann’s SS book. As regards a certain plastic gripped 1937 dated Mundlos bayonet, and it’s VA marked 401 code SS frog? With my point being that I did not need to take a trip to figure that out. I do have some hands experience (but not with your personal collection). And that as you may also recall, I did not have to physically touch certain items to draw some conclusions that you may or may not have agreed with.

So instead of trading opinions, and asking how many of this or that has been physically in hand. Perhaps we could find some way to visualize some of these apparently contentious issues?? Regards, Fred

PS: For what's it’s worth, I believe that what Andy said was: "...... Some exception are from the early prewar period". For myself, I’ve seen early commercial WKC’s unmarked. A few that I believe were legitimate DH examples, and a much larger number of what I thought were PW “add ons”.

PPS: The ink stamp below is not that well done, and not a part of the discussion as an example of faking. What I found interesting was its simplicity. And that it would not take much to make it as a more durable metal copy. Suitable for stamping softer materials like wood or leather, by cutting away unwanted portions leaving the basic (but improved) outline in place.

FP,

I have started and stopped my book several times on SS bayonets. When I thought I had all of the variations new bayonets and information wouls surface from other collectors. I have a very good cross section of SS bayonets in my collection which now numbers over 120 bayonets. John Jacobi has been extremely helpful finding SS bayonets and collectors for me. The SS TK bayonets are what I am now working on. I have collected numerous bayonets from 11 different standarts.

As for the SS VZ-24 bayonets, they are also marked on the crossguards not only in the grips.

Richard Kuchta

Could our friendly local Moderator remove the bayonet discussion from this white frog discussion to a new and improved Thread:SS-Police Marked Bayonets? Then we can have at it in on a properly named venue.

FP,

The large TK that you have reproduced above shows that such things can be reproduced (yours lacks some geometry). However, it does not prove that such a TK stamp on equipment is a reproduction. That type of stamp has been found on holsters, leather flash light cxarriers, hatchet covers, saw cases. Leather items were produced in the camps.

SS Daggers have been reproduced to a very high degree of workmanship. Does that mean that all ss daggers are reproductions and fakes? I don't think so

Richard Kuchta

Joe, Sorry, but it may have to wait until Terry or maybe John takes a look. When I became the moderator of another GDC forum in the “way back” I found that my MAC software did not work with the GDC software.



Richard,
Offhand, I don’t remember anything in our conversations about collecting the individual SS-Totenkopf Standarten. And now you are up to 11 different regimentally TK marked bayonets. That’s quite an accomplishment. As for John Jacobi, he is well known and respected in the collecting community as a collector and the founder of the BCN.

But even he I think, would have to admit that AndyB is very knowledgeable. And the “go to” guy when it comes to quite a bit of the facts/data surrounding German bayonets. And being home based in Slovakia, which is where a number of the Vz 24 bayonets were actually made, I think provides a good “local” perspective from Europe. And as I think we discussed much earlier. While I’ve traveled back and forth in the U.S. attending shows in other states, I’m really more of “West Coast” guy. And that I’ve never seen at first hand some of what you were describing. In spite of the fact that the West Coast at one time was home to a show that brought in dealers/collectors from not just all over the United States. But Germany, England, Japan, and a lot of other countries.

But now that you have made mention of it: “As for the SS VZ-24 bayonets, they are also marked on the crossguards not only in the grips.” Perhaps you could share if the Vz 24 markings are exactly the same as those on the WKC bayonets? Or are they applied differently? Hopefully with some sort of specificity, so that a new collector would know what he was looking at if he happened to encounter one.
FP

FP,

I will try to make a comparison of the the two different bayonet styles and their markings. The markings on the VZ-24 bayonets are smaller than the markings on the WKC bayonets. In the collecting community, it is the opinion that the VZ-24 bayonets were sent to one or more of the camps for reworking and refurbishment. Why they would rework the grips is beyond me. As I stated before, the grips fit the geometry of the tang & crossguard much better than the original grips.

I have only one VZ-24 bayonet that is TK marked. Inside of the grips are Police Eagle B & SS markings.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,
At the moment, I’m starting to get more than a little confused from your statements, which I’m hoping you can clarify. There is a Vz 24 with some kind of a Totenkopf marking on the outside. And some sort of Eagle/B and SS marks on the inside? So this came from a German Police KZ camp rework facility? And if it was on the inside, how would it get back to a Police unit? Also, the other 10 or 11 bayonets are either LAH, SS-VT, SS-Totenkopf, or Waffen SS regimentally Totenkopf marked?

And to help collectors new and old, what I was really looking for was not the size of the markings (which could conceivably vary like with the conventional Waffenamts). But how they were applied ie: etched, stamped, or engraved (conventional or rotary)?

And lastly, I’m afraid that I have to respectfully disagree with you. Many of the factory original CZ bayonets are fitted so tight, as to be almost impossible to remove without damaging the wood at the edges. And I will see if I can find a photo or two to illustrate that, and what the different marking techniques look like, if that is also needed.
FP

FP,

The SS TK VZ-24 has SS TK markings on the outside and Eagle B & SS markings on the inside of the grips. I got this from a rifle collector in New York State. I have no idea where it came from.

When I say that the grips were reworked on the SS VZ-24 bayonets, the grips were reduced in overall thickness and match the contour of the tang & crossguard very precisely.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,
Thanks for the prompt reply to one of the questions, and my comment regarding the fit of the grips. CZ (and 98K) grips were intentionally made oversize. So Im assuming that the grips you are describing are not new. But simply sanded down, like the many thousands of other Vz 24 reworks.

But unfortunately, it will probably be this evening before I can round up some pictures of etching vs. stamping vs. engraving (conventional and rotary) to help with that aspect of the discussion.
FP

FP,

I do not know how they reworked the grips to make them thinner and or if they made new ones.

Leaving work shortly so I will not get back to you till Monday.

Thank you for the discussion.

Richard Kuchta

Eagle B markings on the inside of the grips Rich? And with additional SS markings?

These are the examples of the only types of police accepted S84/98 pieces that I am familiar with Rich. These are AWS made piece bearing eagly and late Eagle D police acceptance markings.

This is the earlier pol
And this is the later acceptance mark.

Hello, thanks for FP background and nice words, i am talked with Richard about the Vz.24 TK bayonets some years ago, and he know my opinion about it. Already there are other information in place here.
"Have you ever seen or handled an SS TK bayonet? Have you ever seen or handled an SS Police Bayonet?"
To this not extra friendly words, i could only say that i personnaly own about 3 police bayonets, same as have evidence to have seen on detailed pictures about 4 DH WKC pieces and handled with 2 other pieces in real.
Other point is that i have many background information about the Vz.24 bayonets, i collect them for about 25 years have about 50 pcs and handled about 1000 in the years, i wrote more as 5 articles about Vz.24 bayonets to various Shooting magazines in czech and slovak republic. Thats for information. I have contact to people who worked in Povazska Bystrica and solved with FP and other collectors some of the mysterys of their production.
The study about Vz.24 TK bayonets needs a historical background, firstly the capturing of czechoslovak equipment in Bohemia and Moravia in 1939 were realised through Wehrmacht mainly not through SS, all the equipment were used by 11 Divisions of Wehrmacht in the west campaign. The SS was in early 1939 only small force with own arms system independent from WaA acceptance.
Other very important point this equipment were reworked in 1942 period,because of heavy losses in winter 1941, it was upgraded to german style, problem by Yours Vz.24 bayonets that many are not reworked in this manner. They are dated with wrong date in wrong place.The DH are of various types.So the stamping is for me not constistent. To compare with WKC early production the stamp is same on bayonets around the worlds were couldnt be made a link between the collections. Other point is the Povazska Bystrica production, i have info that it never went to SS same as it was only Wehrmacht accepted with A80 or 607 stamp. So dont need any additional SS acceptance. As post 1942 were equiped all branches with WaA marked pieces.From this i could only say the Vz.24 pieces are not consistent marked and are for me problematic. The KZ guard units in Austria used on real pictures austrian M1895 arms and bayonets, there is no evidence about DH marked M95 bayonets in similar manner.Best regards,Andy

Andy has posted some of the historical aspects of that time period that cannot justifiably be ignored. Also sharing his own experiences in collecting. And doing an excellent job IMO, in compressing a lot of facts into a brief summation. And while my own CZ collection is more centered around the OEM Czech, German, and some contact pieces. A very good friend of mine specialized heavily in the reworks, both German and Romanian, with maybe a few additional items tossed into the mix. Having examined reasonably comparable numbers of bayonets, with a greater or less emphasis, depending on what it was.

Joe Wotka has posted two types of German Police acceptance marks from Coppel (aka: AWS/ACS). I took a look over the weekend, and can report that Hörster used the same general type as the first one he posted. And that from P. Weyersberg, it’s the same general type as the bottom one, but has a slightly different appearance. So I’m really very curious to see just what an Eagle/B on the inside of a grip of a Vz 24 bayonet might look like.

Earlier I promised some pictures of counterfeiting marking techniques. Which I hope are helpful for those new collectors who might not be that familiar with some of the manufacturing techniques/methods that have been used create “special interest” items. From both legitimate TR period artifacts, and completely new postwar manufactured items.

From left to right: An etch on the blade of a PW fake SS Degen. (This is what a faker might do when he does not want to invest the money into having a metal stamp made.) To its right. A deeper, more three dimensional etch on one of the many postwar etched “SS Unit” marked military issue combat bayonets. And to the right of that, what looks like a conventionally engraved initial, on the pommel cap of a postwar fake/altered SS “Presentation” Degen.

Here we have what I think is a very interesting group of stamps. Which are all fakes. From left to right: Sigrunes, in this case on the pommel cap of a counterfeit SS-Führerdegen (not surprisingly, it has lots of extra stamps in different locations to “guarantee” its originality). Next, a copy of a German Army “Waffenamt” on the pommel cap of a Degen. Which (if it wasn't a complete fake) would have indicated as having come Waffenfabrik Mauser, the rifle and pistol maker. (Or a little later, from Ceskoslovenská Zbrojovka (CZ) in Brno Czechoslovakia.) And to its right, an Eagle/C German Police stamp. Which (in the real world) would have been more appropriate on something like Mauser, Walther, (etc.) pistols. With the last one being a (supposedly) “Waffen SS” stamp on a bayonet pommel. The message with this one being: If no legitimate stamp exists to copy - why not just create your own version???

Now lets say that you don’t have the time or money to invest in stamps to mark some otherwise ordinary items (or some brand new ones). To make them into much higher priced “special interest” items. What to do? One of the ways, which is more common than some folks might think, is to use rotary engraving. (Think an old style dentist’s drill, a ‘Dremel’ tool, or perhaps a shop that does pantograph rotary engraving.) With the bottom image showing one of the all new manufacture rotary engraved “Krupp” daggers. With the inset showing what some of the burrs/cutters look like (but with a smaller diameters than shown).

And lastly, for comparison purposes, a factory original prewar CZ bayonet grip. Showing the close fit, and the typical excess material that protrudes above the metal surfaces. The same kind of overhang that is typically seen in varying degrees (usually less) with period OEM German bayonets. Best Regards to All, FP

Joe,

The bayonet that is marked with Eagle B on the inside of the grips and on the Frog is also TK marked. The frog is marked with a TK over the Eagle B, over the serial # of the bayonet.In a prior discussion with FP, I may have called the police bayonet a VZ-24; however it is a 84/98. I also have at least 5 other police bayonets marked similar to what you are showing that are also SS marked.

I have been working on a book for a period of years and things are finally comming together. I have cracked the TK code on the bayonets early this spring due to the acquisition of several key pieces. I can share some data with you & FP. Please contact me. I also extend an invitation to you Joe to see my collection.

FP, the VZ-24 bayonet that I thought was police marked was actually a DOT coded bayonet with dual TK marked grips.

Richard K

Andy,

I did not mean to use hard words as you say. But I completely disagree with what you are saying about the SS not marking bayonets. The SS marked VZ rifles. Why would they not mark the bayonets? Why would the SS renumber some of the GEW rifles? They would X out numbers and put on new ones. Do you know why? Are you saying that all weapons with SS markings are fakes???

Richard Kuchta

FP,

I agree that reproduction stamps and engravings can be made and what you have posted helps to show the extent that people will go to to produce a reproduction item. However, you do not acknowledge that there are legitimate SS marked rifles, Lugers, and bayonets.

I have never seen a reproduction SS marked bayonet that came close to an original. Markings, placement of markings, blades, & frogs.

I have capture papers with some of my bayonets and the capture papers can be evaluated at any time to substantiate the SS bayonets. We all know that paper work can be forged.

FP I have recently obtained some extremely rare SS bayonets dated 1945. They are phosphate finished, consecutive numbered, and unissued. The were liberated by a corporal from a Heavy Pontoon Boat Regiment that helped to liberate a work camp / SS Weapons Depot in Germany in 1945. Also have the capture papers with them.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

I’m at a little bit of a loss in understanding the above, so let me see if I got it right:

1) There is a bayonet with an Eagle/B on the inside of the grips. With a Death’s Head (or TK) over an Eagle B and the bayonet’s serial number on the back of the frog. But the bayonet is not a Vz 24, it’s a 98K (84/98). And there are at least 5 other (84/98 (?) German Police bayonets that you have. Which are Police marked similar to those Joe posted, but all having some additional SS markings.

2) ............. Thanks for the invitation. And I will send you an email, so that you will have an electronic link for data as we did earlier (it’s still the same one).

3) As for the bayonet that you thought was Police marked. It’s actually a “dot” marked Vz 24 (1942 or 1943)? With Death’s Head markings on the inside of both grips? Is there anything else about it that might have made you think that it was Police?



As a group I’m OK with the idea of SS rifles. But I don’t think that every example that I’ve seen is legitimate, with fakes creeping into that collecting arena for a long period of time. With pistols I would defer to Joe Wotka’s judgment - as a well known very knowledgeable specialist in that area. Bayonets and frogs? I’ve seen many more fakes than I have originals. And I’m not talking about the “SS” unit etched blade variety, but the more serious attempts to fake them.

I also pay some attention to markings placement, and what they might at first glance look like. But I also know that some individuals (and/or groups) make reasonably decent copies of high quality period daggers and and hangers. With copies of markings, or new added ones. Said items causing a lot of headaches for a number of collectors, with sometimes very long discussions taking place. And if a good look at this “Krupp” dagger is any indication. How much work went into creating it? And what does that say about already manufactured items that have clearly been reworked? How hard could it be to add a few extra marks, versus making a complete dagger?

As for the 1945 dated bayonets with SS markings, are they 98K’s from Solingen, that were manufactured with a phosphate finish? If so, maybe I can help you. Having a new (or virtually new) very late 1944 dated, phosphate finished 98K, that could be used for comparison purposes with the type of finish used. Or is it some type of bayonet other than the 98K?

Regards, FP

" But I completely disagree with what you are saying about the SS not marking bayonets."
"Why would the SS renumber some of the GEW rifles? Are you saying that all weapons with SS markings are fakes???"
When You readed my previous answers You will see that i wrote about 2 or 3 real variation on frogs and one real stamp on bayonets. There is important to dont mix period of aquisition of the material for SS. Certainly is very important to speak about early prewar period.The majority of real DH stamps were found on reworked Gew98 rifles changed to Kar98k configuration, important thing is that majority were Nitro commerzial proofed and were reworked and obtained without any army links, it was realised commerzially by small firms and proofed commerzially too. I dont know what are the DH there for meaning but assume it was done in property manner. Unfortunally a short time after find some of the rifles were started the fakery hysteria. Similar stamps occured on items where should be not be. In today market are majority of DH or SS stamps fakes, so is hard to determine the real ones.
It would be certainly interesting to view the key pieces about You talked?
Here i will add some classic fakes.

Very nice looking is the cultural SS marking of Prof.Diebitsch.

To dot marked Sg24(t) bayonet, the majority of were marked with E/63 proof which means the Army acceptance inspector was there for all branches of Wehrmacht and W-SS ,they dont need stamp additional property stamp and certainly not inside of grips. But maybe You could add some pictures?

FP,

Last night I went through my collection and to pull the correct bayonets. When I had showed my bayonets last during the early Summer, some of the bayonets were put away in the wrong storage containers. I pulled the SS Eagle B Police last night and it is a VZ-24 bayonet. I brought it to work today to get some pictures. Please send me a link. Joe will you also send me a link so i can send you some pictures.

I have the other SS police marked bayonets pulled.

Richard Kuchta

Andy,

You say that the inspectors were there to watch over the production of bayonets. The majority of the bayonets used by the SS came out of the work camps. VZ-24 bayonets were renumbered by the SS. Why? Very time consuming and was it necessary? In the collector's community of SS bayonets, it is believed that internal marked grips reflects camp fabrication & or rework. Internal marked grips are also found on SS 84/98 & 98/05 bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

The germans didnt made any Vz.24 bayonets, they only ordered production in Waffenwerke Bruenn plants, by reworks it could be certainly done in camp, but there is no reason for stamping parts of the bayonets that are hidden as inner side of grips? When we assume the marking is a property marking of SS has no practical sense mark a hidden part with this marking. By DH on crossguard it must be certainly examined but without picture is nothing more to say. best regards,Andy

Andy,

You offer your opinions on the markings on SS bayonets. I respect your opinion. However, your statements are subjective and not based upon any fact. I must agree that renumbering bayonets,rifles, & pistols does not make sense and marking the inside of the grips of bayonets where you can not see does not make sense; however it was done by the SS. As Joe Wotka says "the hobby is a learning process." We need to determine why this was done. The SS had a reason. To say that the SS didn't mark their weapons and that all existing legitimate SS marked weapons are faked is only your opinion. There is a large SS weapons collecting community out there and their opinion greatly differs from yours.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

There are a number of items to be addressed, so I will try and be brief. We have confirmation of the Police marked Vz. 24 (Andy - new manufacture like a “dot” would be a Sg 24(t) without the muzzle ring?) And as we speak, you should already have an email link.




This really is a fairly complex topic, so it's going to be greatly summarized. And I’m doing it from memory, not having the time to pull references.

Time is the critical element with reworks in general, and how KZ labor was employed. There is period film, and still images, showing what appear to be KZ workers in factories making what look like new production rifles. And if I remember it correctly, it was Albert Speer, the Minister of Armaments and War Production who made complaints about not getting enough workers. The poor diet for workers and other issues. Facts which were greatly hindering his efforts. And then there was Himmler. Who was trying to get contracts from the OKH (Wehrmacht) for arms production. The development of the “V” weapons, aircraft component production, etc. etc.

So while the idea of “camp” production might possibly work in the early years. What were they actually using the limited resources for that they had in ............... let’s say 1945??



Which is why I would like to also get a look at the 1945 dated phosphate finished bayonets, having spent at least some time in looking at the “last ditch” production items. Because with just a verbal mention, just what is it that we are actually talking about??

PS: Do you have all of the years in your collection? From the German takeover/occupation to 1945?

Regards, FP

FP,

I have no other bayonets like the 1945 dated, phosphate finished, consecutive numbered, unissued SS Bayonets. These bayonets are unique becaused they are salvaged, reworked bayonets. You can see some traces where the MFG name was not completely buffed off. I agree that priorities in 1945 had to be extremely great so why go through all of the work of refurbishing bayonets? The rifle that was taken at the same time as the bayonets at the SS Weapons depot was not SS marked;however, it was no doubt refurbished and packed in grease. The rifle is now in a SS weapons collection in Albany, New York. I do not have the answers as to why things were done as they were by the SS

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

I understand that the 1945 dated phosphate finished bayonets are by themselves unique. Also understanding that the "dot" bayonet that you mentioned is most likely going to be of 1942 or 1943 manufacture. But it's been quite a while since this topic has been discussed. And you seem to have been fairly active over a relatively extensive period since then.

So what my question was directed at were the dates that you've mentioned as being on the items themselves, with 1945 as the acknowledged end point. Do they extend back to the German takeover/occupation of Czechoslovakia? Or are there any gaps in the dates of the ones that you have in your collection?

Best Regards, FP

Hello FP thanks for the link, very interesting reading, the Vz.24 bayonets as already in the name Vzor or Modell is a czechoslovak item and was designed with a barell ring, there should be difference to the german reworks and new contract should be called SG24(t) same as rifle was called G24(T).Its confirmed that not all army reworks are similar to the new production.
To Richard, without seeing the reworks is hard anything to say, but renumbering has nothing to do only with SS , the army and other branches realised the reworks of Vz.24 to SG24(t) by various smaller division works and there exist more as 10 different variations, same as many were serialed in the process of refurbishment.
I have examined a small amount of commerzial blades from the war period and from various paper documents is confirmed that the blankos , some of the WKC served by W-SS, and have no markings at all, no SS in circles, no DH on crossguards, no SS Wa1 or other SSZZA4 stamps, no stamps on grips nothing, it must be not stamped with SS to be a SS weapon. Same is the police equipment, marked only with small stamps on exact places. Thats for me the point that these pieces were overlooked for 50 years are in reality the W-SS pieces.best regards.Andy

FP,

I brought my DOT 42 to work today. There is one WA on the pommel above the retension latch slide. WA could be 59? The The grips and the scabbard have been numbered 28. The Inside of the grips are both SS marked.

The 45 dated bayonets are 84/98s.

Richard K

Andy,

Is it your opinion that some unmarked bayonets & rifles were used by the SS? If that is your opinion, I would agree with that. However, there is a substantial amount of legitimate SS marked weapons in collections.

As I stated earlier, there was a non SS marked rifle taken from the SS Weapons Depot along with the 2 SS marked & 45 dated bayonets.

Richard Kuchta

Andy,Joe, FP:

Since we are talking about SS VZ-24 Bayonets, I would like to expand the subject to a SS TV VZ-24 Bayonet with Property Number to the 4th TK-Standarte Ostmark. This Standarte was formed in 1938 at Vienna and Berlin. Later designated 4. SS-Infanterie Regiment.

Bayonet is a VZ-24 that has been given an SS Property #45. Scabbard is numbered on thte frog stud. Grips are numbered 866 which matches the number on the tang. Bayonet is 4th TK-Standarte marked as well as SS marked. The frog is 4th TK-Standarte marked.The blade has been sharpened to an extreme keen edge before reblue. The muzzle ring has been cut.

Richard Kuchta

The dot must be WaA proofed only with 63, but is too small so it could be missreaded as 59 You should use a magnification glass. The other Vz.24 SS marked bayonet could be probably examined only by sharp pictures, when You will it would be probably better start a new thread as mentioned by Joe. best regards,Andy
PS we would like to see the 45 dated bayonets SG84/98 as i am the database keeper for BCN

Until just now, I had (rightly or wrongly) assumed that the 1945 dated bayonets under discussion were Vz. 24’s. That they are a pair of SG 84/98’s (98K’s) does put a fresh perspective on the matter, and I can see where the BCN database would have an interest in the bayonets. Also agreeing that a complete Vz. 24 rig that is well marked, should probably have a thread devoted just to that one topic alone. FP

FP,

There are SS 98/05 bayonets.
FP,
There are SS 84/98 bayonets

There are SS Vz-24 Bayonets

There are SS Rigs: Belt, Bayonet, Pouches, Pistols

There are documented (Capture Paper Items)

What type of data on SS Bayonets can be provided for our discussions. There are strong opinions especially on SS VZ-24 bayonets that they are all fakes, made by the Russins etc. Nothing based on hard evidence & facts.

Richard Kuchta

FP,

Forgot to add that there are also SS TV 84/98 bayonets with KL markings.

Richard Kuchta

FP,

Please check your messages on the forum.

Richard K

Richard,
There have been several requests for pictures along with the descriptions. Again, pictures please.....
Remember the old college professor's adage...."Publish or Perish!"
A new thread would be nice also, since this one started out on an entirely un-related subject. Klinge, did you have your original question answered satisfactorily?

Denny,

It is difficult to show alot of pictures of unpublished SS bayonets. I do not want to give the makers of reproductions a heads up before I have published. However, I can share some pictures of items with members, Pictures to be sent directly to E-mail address and pictures not to be published. I shall also try to answer to the best of my ability any question that comes from our forum. Again, I allowed Whittman to use some of my bayonet pictures and within 3 months there were numerous SS 98/05 bayonets at the gun shows. I did not give all of the details so the fakes were easy to detect. I am a collector and researcher not a dealer. I am not trying to advance any of my collection. Let us see where it goes. It is a great& interesting topic and there is a to be learned by all. Our founder John Jacobi has been a great help and has found numerous bayonets for me. The last one was in Germany not more than 3 months ago. I still owe him.

Richard Kuchta

Denny,


Can you post pictures for me if I send them to you. We need to set some base lines and get agreement on specific issues as we go along. I want to start off with SS Bayonets that have been published ans select some specific models.

Richard Kuchta

Bayonet Forum Members,

Do any of you remember Glenn De Ruter from Sarco? Glenn imported into this country a large quantity of SS bayonets. They varied in quality from tomato stakes to excellent condition pieces. Glenn was also an original BCN Member.

Richard Kuchta