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#231198 10/26/2010 06:04 PM
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Klinge Offline OP
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Hello
What do you feel about this white frog ?
Thnaks
Alain


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Looks old!!!

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I am very sceptical about this, the front pouch is different probably not genuine leather, there are no rivets, the stamps looks little strange. You should wait for other experts, as i am not focused on frogs.best regards,Andy

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I'd go as far as to say the frog is original , as andy states the rivets are gone , but the holes still remain , and it has been painted/treated with a white substance , what that is exactly i'm not sure. (Iwork in the paint industry and i dont know without it in hand) I believe it was done a long time ago , be that 10,30,60 years ago is going to be the question ? , worth a punt if i'ts cheap
Regards
Will.

p.s. the stitching that hold the pouch on the reverse look a bit sloppy ? slightly different to the rest, could be my eyes though!

Last edited by will jones; 10/27/2010 08:21 PM.
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For myself, I don't see good evidence that rivets were installed vs. smaller diameter holes from now possibly missing stitching. And the white coloration inside inside of the pouch (and frog stud hole) is also not good from my perspective, as the Germans as a rule left these areas unfinished. (ie: natural/brown leather). FP

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FP , the "WHITE WASH" is not good , do you think this is a fake frog ? i will stand corrected (said the man in the orthopedic shoes) lol

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Originally Posted By: will jones
FP , the "WHITE WASH" is not good , do you think this is a fake frog ? i will stand corrected (said the man in the orthopedic shoes) lol


Will, I think that the frog was painted (white washed - whatever) after if was made. And I forgot to mention that I find the way that the white finish has cracked around the lettering I think is also troubling.

So, absent a first hand inspection, from my perspective I have to put it into at least the "altered" box. And possibly a complete fake - but would need to take a look at some other things like what it smells like etc. Best Regards, FP

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Klinge Offline OP
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Hello guys
Thanks for you comments about this frog.
Best regards
Alain

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I believe this is a repair postwar job, i assume the piece was damaged on front pouch, and the all stiching was replased same as front part, the rivets were not added and the overall was white over painted. I believe there should be examined thouroughly like mentioned FP. best regards,Andy

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Hi Andy
I have been told it was worn by SS in the 30ies for presentation ?
Regards
Alain

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Originally Posted By: Klinge
Hi Andy
I have been told it was worn by SS in the 30ies for presentation ?
Regards
Alain


The SS did use white leather gear for a period during the 30's, but this ain't it.
Does anyone remember the old Shinola liquid shoe polish they made in white for Nurse's and Saddle shoes? If this isn't it, it's something very close. The originality of the frog is really unimportant at this point, as it has essentially been ruined anyway.


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Originally Posted By: Denny Gaither
The SS did use white leather gear for a period during the 30's, but this ain't it. Does anyone remember the old Shinola liquid shoe polish they made in white for Nurse's and Saddle shoes? If this isn't it, it's something very close. The originality of the frog is really unimportant at this point, as it has essentially been ruined anyway.


That works for me. The leather finish in the image is all wrong for a period item. With no doubt in my mind that the frog was intended for the "collector market". FP

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Klinge Offline OP
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Thanks for these new points of detail.
Alain

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If it had an original white finish, then it would have been worn by the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH)
Regards
Will

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HI HAS ANYONE GOT A PHOTO OF ANOTHER SO WE CAN COMPARE.I HAVE SEEN PHOTOS OF THEM IN WEAR AS WELL.
THANKS DIPPY

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Heres one thats for sale on regimentals site. a bit dear but looks to be real

53218a.jpg (15.59 KB, 156 downloads)
53218b.jpg (16 KB, 155 downloads)
53218c.jpg (47.72 KB, 154 downloads)

Regards Sean
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Originally Posted By: will jones
If it had an original white finish, then it would have been worn by the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH)
Regards
Will


Also by a certain segment of the Polizei, I believe. Perhaps Orpo will expand on this point.


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As far as I have known, the only accepted white frogs were made by Fischer, Berlin. I believe they were primarily used by Polizei units on parade duty & had limited use by the Liebstandarte on a diplomatic trip to Japan. The original frog posted in this thread looks to be a complete reproduction IMHO.

This one was purchased from the late Chip Gambino. Legit examples are not cheap but do create a striking appearance, don't they?

Frog Maker Mark.JPG (94.18 KB, 146 downloads)

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A view from the front.

~.JPG (102.37 KB, 147 downloads)

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Billy
That is one incredible bayonet.
Congrats
Stingray

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B:

Stingray is right, that is a wow!

Is that a Pack with offset rivets like that? Did they do the offset rivet with police bayos like they did with their etches?

J


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hi billy
This bayonet is SUPERB !!!
Klinge

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White frogs from the 30's and 40's were still in use with the German army in the 80's..

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Gentlemen,

Many thanks for the kind words. The frog was purchased from chip Gambino many years ago, sadly his site seems to no longer be in operation. Both the frog & knot were added to the bayonet later, it came to me naked. I've seen white A. Fischer, Berlin frogs with both 137 & 1938 dates & they all pretty much resembled this one. I liked it because it showed a little period wear but still remained quite serviceable. Actually, the frog shows significantly more wear than the bayonet which is very near mint & quite possibly unissued. No doubt one of my personal favorites in the stable.

For any who don't recognize the model, it is a rare PSS (Polizei Seitengewehr Sonderausfuhrung), here is a GD thread with plenty more information on them. I think they're still working the kinks out of the search function on the new GD software as I couldn't find this thread on the site search. It took a Google search to resurrect it from what I thought was an early demise.

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=140566


John,

I don't believe I've ever seen a PSS by Pack. This one is by Gebruder Hartkopf &, for those of you that are mark buts, is also distributor marked. So far as I know, the offset rivets are a standard of the model type & not a specific manufacturer's variation. Pack police bayonets are not too common & those I've seen all seemed to be pretty early in construction. Most had a couple of distinctive details that I believe were specific to Pack although offset rivets were not something I'd ever observed on them.


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Billy, kind of weird but sometimes works:

Go to bottom lower left of screen. See 'Display Options'.

Change 'Show Topics' to 'from all dates' and click 'Change'..

It should show all the back pages from the old GDC forum. Then sometimes you'll find what your searching for! wink

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Originally Posted By: Billy G.
As far as I have known, the only accepted white frogs were made by Fischer, Berlin. I believe they were primarily used by Polizei units on parade duty & had limited use by the Liebstandarte on a diplomatic trip to Japan. The original frog posted in this thread looks to be a complete reproduction IMHO.

This one was purchased from the late Chip Gambino. Legit examples are not cheap but do create a striking appearance, don't they?


The white frogs were specified for use with S84.98s in parade dress by units of the Schutzpolizei (Reich and Gemeinden). It matched their white belt and bandeliers. Their band and fife/bugle units also wore white. The Gendarmerie wore brown parade dress accessories.

I am sure the LSAH wore white in all parade circumstances.


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Darn the time limitations of the edit function.

The white frogs were specified for sue with the S84/98s when the Schupo were carrying rifles. Without the rifle, the Polizei Seitengewehr was carried. The mot. Gendarmerie carried the S84/98s at all times in their brown frogs.

Billy, I have an example of white frog produced by Fischer and "Po" accepted in 1937 and Larsen (1938) but with a "Po 39" acceptance stamp. The second example seems to be of slightly larger size.


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Joe,

Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I remember reading somewhere that Fischer was the only legitimate white frog. As luck would have it, the only white ones I've seen that looked good were by Fischer but it doesn't surprise me there would be another maker. Could you post a pic of your Larsen?


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The SS did use white frogs with their 98/05 & 84/98 bayonets. All of the SS frogs that I have seen and those in my collection are made from a substitute material such as compressed paper. the white finish is similiar to a white enamel paint. The White SS Frogs are marked with the typical SS Property Mark on the backside of the frog.

If you look closely at the LAH Band pictures taken during their performance for Hitler's birthday, you can see the 98/05 bayonets in the white 98/05 frogs.

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Billy, I will try and get some pics up this evening.

Rich, do you mean that all SS formations had issued white leather for parade, or only the LSAH? Do you have any photos of it in use by any other units that the LSAH? By typical SS property mark, do you mean the VA marking? Someone screwed around with my "Po" marked white frog and added an LAH stamp. Totally bogus, but it didn't destroy the police marking.


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Joe,

The white SS Frogs were used by only the LAH (other than the police units). The typical SS Property Mark consists of a Death Head. The Death Heads vary in size and location depending upon which Division.

Richard Kuchta

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Rich, why would those marks differ so greatly from the SS VA markings found on standard black bayonet frogs.


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Joe,

I should clarify even more. The size and position of the Death Head varies for the SS/VT. There are 3 specific positions where the Death Head is stamped on the back of the frog. Why the different sizes of Death Heads, I do not know. There are also the SS/VT WW1 frogs that have the Death Head & Date (very early).

For the SS/TV there is usually only one location for the Standarte Property Stamp. SS/TV Property Stamp can be a combination of Death Head with numbers; Death Head with numbers & Date; Death Head with Letters, Numbers; and sometimes date. Bayonet serial numbers are sometimes found on the SS/TV Frogs.

Waffen SS camp made frogs can be found completely sterile or with the SS VA stamp. SS VA Stamp can also accompany the frog manufacturer logo.

Richard Kuchta

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Richard, are you establishing a time line by identifying SS/VT and SS/TV (pre-1939)frogs as being marked with the TK in variations with dates and numbers. And Waffen-SS (post 1939) frogs either sterile or with VA stamp?


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Originally Posted By: richkuch43@aol.com
Joe,

I should clarify even more. The size and position of the Death Head varies for the SS/VT. There are 3 specific positions where the Death Head is stamped on the back of the frog. Why the different sizes of Death Heads, I do not know. There are also the SS/VT WW1 frogs that have the Death Head & Date (very early).

For the SS/TV there is usually only one location for the Standarte Property Stamp. SS/TV Property Stamp can be a combination of Death Head with numbers; Death Head with numbers & Date; Death Head with Letters, Numbers; and sometimes date. Bayonet serial numbers are sometimes found on the SS/TV Frogs.

Waffen SS camp made frogs can be found completely sterile or with the SS VA stamp. SS VA Stamp can also accompany the frog manufacturer logo.

Richard Kuchta


Speaking in general, there has been a LOT of fakery where supposed "SS" bayonet frogs are concerned. With one of the problems in making a connection for example to the Waffen SS, being that it did not 'officially' exist as such until early 1940, and some other issues. And the existence of VA marked frogs in 1938, and I believe 1937 as well, but I will need to check. FP

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Hey FP! Get out the vote.

I was going to remark about earlier VA stamped frogs. Mine is dated "38" with maker number in the 400 range. Will photo tonight.


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Here are the five police issue bayonet frogs I have: from left to right a 1929 Fischer made brown for the newly adopted M29 Prussian Polizeiseitengewehr for Landjagerei, Fischer 1936 Po issue for Schutzpolizei, 1937 Larsen white issue (PO 37) for Schupo parade, 1937 Schweyer brown issue Gend, 1938 Fischer white issue for Schupo (Po 39). The 1937 Larsen white frog is entirely of leather, while the 1938 Fisher is of composite materials that ties in with the decree that parade dress accoutrements should be made of artificial materials to conserve leather.

View of the rear but unfortunately I reversed the line-up, so the description should read right to left.

Two views of the reverse markings of some: the 1929 Landjagerei and 1936 Schupo, both Fischer.

And a view of the two white frog makers: the 1937 Larsen and the 1938 Fischer.
It was the Fischer to which someone applied the LAH letters in an ignorant attempt to fake a Leibstandarte frog.

Finally three views of the VA/SS 1938 marked frog.




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Hello
Another Police frog with Po but without maker mark.
Regards
Alain


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Joe,

I am sorry if I am confusing the issue. Let me try again. I do have and have seen Waffen SS Bayonet Frogs with the Death Head on the back of the frog. The only bayonet frogs that I have seen the SS VA stamped on have been on the Waffen SS Bayonets. I have never seen a SS VA stamp on a SS/TV Bayonet Frog. The sterile frogs have all been on the Waffen SS Marked 84/98 bayonets as well as the SS marked VZ-24 Bayonets.

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Joe, A very nice group of frogs. smile The 1937 date for VA marked frogs is confirmed. The white finished impregnated canvas(?) 1938 Fischer is a rare one, having seen it also in brown, and at least one in black.

As for the Vz 24 bayonets (and rifles). The photographs that come immediately to mind show Czech configured bayonets (ie: pommel bright finished with full muzzle rings) and rifles. What I don’t remember offhand, is the date mentioned that the Czech issues were supposed to be turned over to the German Army, to be replaced with German weapons. FP

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