UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum 1st model railroad?

Hello.Fist of all, I got this for the price of an army. I was suspect of the grip when I bought it and now I'd like to know if it is a real grip. It appears to have been poured in a mold, not sure of the material but it is black all the way threw. What made me suspect it was it has mold lines on opposite sides of the grip. I would expected German quality to have removed these. It has a squarish hole on one end and a round one on the other. If it would help I'll be glad to post photos of it. Best regards Walter

Photos would definitely help id the grip

Thanks for your reply Vern. Here are some photos. Also I read some where that Klass was the only maker of these, is that true? Regards, Walter

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and last one

Without further investigation, I really don't like the blade tang. It looks to have been either shortened or lengthened to allow the black grip to fit the lenght of the tang properly to me. A bad sign. I have NEVER seen threads down this low on the tang of a dagger before this one.

Thank you for your responce Ron.I agree with you that the tang has been messed with. It appears a 1" piece of all-thread has been brazed onto the tang. Also compared to another army dagger I have, the tang is 3/16" shorter. The grip from the army is white on a wood core. The black grip is about 1/8" shorter then the white one. If you have an opinion on this grip Ron, I'd sure love to hear it as I'm out to learn all I can. I love German daggers. Best regards, Walter

I think I see a seam on the side of the grip where it was cast in two pieces then joined. Were not the real grips turned on a special machine from a solid piece of plastic ?

From what I am seeing it looks like brazing (?) with what could be a machine screw (?) tacked onto the end (it might not even have metric threads). As for the grip, it looks like an injection molded possibly softer plastic like polystyrene. Not good indicators from my perspective. FP

What you're seeing on the tang is where someone ran threads down the tang of a larger size then the threads that the pommel is screwed on. If you look at the 4th picture down at the edge of the picture you can see where a piece of all-thread was brazed on, but you can't see the threads in the photo. The all-thread has metric threads. The grip looks like it was poured into a two piece mold hence two seams. It is all one piece. I don't recognize the material it was made from although it is very hard. It's hard to scratch with a sharp object. Is there any information to be had as to how the grips were made and how many different materials were used? Regards, Walter

Walter, If I’m reading it correctly, a piece of larger thread stock was brazed to the tang. And then smaller metric threads were cut into that extension for the pommel cap? Speaking only to the phenolic resin (Bakelite) types of grips. The (original German) white grips were cast as one long piece in a lead mold which was used only that one time. The lead molds usually had a single ID number at one end to ID the batch as it cured, but no parting lines. Being cut into smaller dagger grip sized pieces before being machined.

There was quite a discussion of the plastic grip materials years ago. With the bottom line being that white grips that were made of cast phenolic resin were capable of changing colors to different variations (basically those in the yellow/orange part of the color spectrum). Also discussed from time to time, are what mostly seem to be a white painted (with a black molded phenolic resin base) plastic that is basically the same as that used for bayonet and pistol grips and a number of other things by the Germans. Some of these show signs of the paint being deliberately removed. A red hot needle or pin used at one end (where it won’t show) will bounce off of the Bakelite grips because the plastic is thermosetting. The line that you mention is called a parting line because it’s where the two halves of the mold separate. A red hot needle or pin used at one end (where it won’t show) of a thermosetting plastic like Polystyrene will leave a hole in the plastic. (There is also a smell as it melts the plastic.)

I hope that this helps for now and in the future. Best Regards, Fred

Dave I believe you are correct. The trylon grips were turned however we do see seam lines on celluliod over plaster grips quite often. Just want to mention this cause a statement that seam lines are bad is not correct in all instances.

I wanted to thank all who responded and shared information on this thread. Beast regards, Walter

I don't like the seam down the side of the grip. I have never seen an original Rail with a seam. JMO.

Hello Gents,

I just purchased this one. No seam:)
Your opinions please.

Has anyone seen this maker on the 1st rail?

AES MM

Anyone?

Were there other producers than Klaas? Whera can I find info on this company AES?

AES is the mark for Arthur Evertz, Solingen. Klaas is the most accepted maker for a 1st Railroad dagger and has a distinctive grip. Apparently they had a lot of black grips left over which were painted and used on Army daggers. You can still find them from time to time, and occasionally you can find a Klaas painted grip on another maker's Army dagger. Remove the grip paint and you have a 1st Railroad. The other accepted maker is Eickhorn, but the dagger should have the 2nd Railroad style grip. Photo is of 3 Klaas daggers, 2 with intact original paint.

Agreed Vern, Collectors want a Klaas. BTW, the Klaas grip are slightly longer than a std army grip.
BTW, I'm with Ron on that black grip with the seam. There were a bunch of the black plastic grips being sold on Ebay some years ago, they were made of a soft plastic and has seams. They magicly pop up every once in a while on daggers today.