UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Degen or Honor Ring rarity?

I looked at the list from 42 and it's interesting that some Officers got the Degen and not the ring. I guess in some cases the they didn't meet the qualifications to get the ring.

From what I've read on different forums almost perfect fake rings are now available, not so degens, will this make a difference in desireability?

Nolan

quote:

Originally posted by Nolan:
From what I've read on different forums almost perfect fake rings are now available, not so degens, will this make a difference in desireability?

Nolan

Hi Nolan,
the different is : to fake an perfect "early" SS Leader Degen is near impossible,but to fake such a little ring is far simple.Only collectors who specialize in honor rings sees clearly.I will say the name Don Boyle as example.
Best.

Exactly my point, the ordinary non expert collector would have more chance of being 'stung' by a ring than a degen.

Nolan

Exactly my point, the ordinary non expert collector would have more chance of being 'stung' by a ring than a degen.

Nolan
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Yep! No question about that anymore. I've seen so many 'minty' SSTK rings in the past two years that at least for me, there are way too many for my liking. Naturally along with these recent 'woodwork' discoveries there has been plenty of controversy.

Today one can now take a stroll in the desert and run into "Tuko" and he will probably have a SSTK to sell you but no degen.

-serge-

I couldn't agree with Serge more here. I know a bit about TK rings having studied them for the past 10 years and will state the following:
If I were in the market for a TK ring at this time there are only two dealers I would even consider buying one from and neither of them post on GDC or WAF.
Jim

I agree 100% with Jim regarding the 2 dealers who I think we all know. My ring has slight wear which I like to see on a ring. Those mega mint rings really bother me and I would not have one in my collection.JMO.

SS swords? IF I had a choice I'd want a good condition early pattern HR [hey I'm a ring guy!],, if not that I'd take a SS sword way before I'd take one of these current of late 'out of the woodwork' late pattern HRs.

Prices have definitely stagnated on HRs, and you guys are right,,there are more out there now than ever before. A black enamel SS runic ring is way more rare than any run of the mill HR. Sure,you have one to an infamous personality, or a hard core combat vet now your talking,but these are the exceptions..
Just think,, in 1997 a well known author/historian stated in a book that 'less than 20 HRs exist in collections'! I know 2 guys without even thinking that have that many in their collection right now!

You guys collecting dagger/swords for years,,,how many SS swords do you guesstamate are actually out there? Were there production figures anywhere published?

Quote:
"You guys collecting dagger/swords for years,,,how many SS swords do you guesstamate are actually out there? Were there production figures anywhere published?"

Good question G and I don't know of any published estimate. Perhaps T Wittmann made a stab(no pun intended!) at an estimate when he wrote his SS edged weapons book. As far a SS degens go when compared to TK rings I personally think the survival rate is quite different. SS degens,being dress items, were usually left at home while a recipient was on active duty. TK rings I expect were worn into combat and sometimes lost when the owner became a fatality of discarded when in retreat as no one wanted anything to indicate they belonged to the SS. Therefore the survival rate for SS swords is probably higher. I heard Don Boyle estimate that there are probably less than 500 surviving TK rings out there out of an approximate 20,000 originals. We also have to keep in mind that "modified" police swords are out there posing as SS swords in collections. Many of us strongly suspect what's been transpiring in the TK ring arena for the past few years hence the recent plethora of "mint" condition rings.
Jim

Jim, as we now know that today it's not just the 'mint' TK Rings we are dealing with but with the Czech 'Grond-Dug Fakes' the Polish 'ground-Dug fakes' The Russian Grounders, the latvian Grounders. Then there is the Japanese Super-fakes. One can see the improvement of the High-End fakes. Now adding most flaws. But you know what??? They still can't get it right. OH, and lets not forget the Ring boxes. My- haven't we seen a lot of those lately also.

SS Honor Degen's however are harder to fake due to the police grip insignia wings cutouts can be distinguished on an attemped SS grip runes conversion. Unless of course they find a real SS grip - good Luck.
So I think there are more SSTK's now than ever if one wants to buy one. But what is one going to get?
Just go to A. or D. and get some piece of mind on a SSTK - Way too much controversy with others- and even for myself a SSTK novice, you put those recent 'woodworkers' under a strong lupe and say "Hey What happened to the Septum in this ones nose?" When a guy like me has questions that there no apparent answers but 'gobbly-gook', well that Spidey Sense starts tingling and I leap away from that 15-20K Mint SSTK just Vet Fresh find. - No problem.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel better with something that has a grip to it anyway.

-serge-

Well Serge:
I for one am glad to hear you managed to get a grip on yourself.
Up until fairly recently Tom Johnson had new "Old Stock" SS sword replacement grips for sale on his site.Granted there would be other issues in making a convincing fake SS degen but these replacements I suspect would have gotten someone around a major one.
Jim

Faking Honor rings, Honor Daggers, Honor Swords - How-Dishonorable can one get?
Woa!!!Johnson had SS Honor Sword Grips?! Well I can see why he "Sold-Out". 'Old-New Stock' Well here come Minty SS Honor Degens!
Yep, Jim I got a grip, but it's not a 'Johnson'. I'll still stick to my old patina'd grip. You guys can have the minty 'new-old stock' that's 'straight from the woodwork'! HA!

Wonder how many of these minty 'woodwork' Honor fake/gems will be at the MAX?

-serge-

Serge:
I know a fellow collector who built his own SA and SS Honor daggers using principally left over parts from Tom Johnson. I've seen them and since he's an excellent craftsman they are very convincing. I'm NOT posting this to put down Tom Johnson, whom I have a great deal of respect for, since I believe he has overall done a service to the hobby by supplying replacements such as screws and other minor parts to put otherwise damaged daggers back into complete condition.
I just stating this to show how far past the "legitimate" restoration point one can go if they are so inclined. Most of the regulars here know what's been coming out of the Czech Republic for dagger copies these past few years. They're good although not perfect but I expect they will give collectors fits in the years to come just as the purported new fake TK rings are now doing.
Perhaps some other collectors will pipe in here with their thoughts and what thye see happening.
Jim

I'm sorry, Jim, but you have no experience with SS Honor Daggers. If you did, you'd know that these "project" pieces bear no resemblance to genuine specimens, other than their general physical shape. I can speak with genuine authority on this subject, having personally owned six original examples. These creations may present a challenge to you, but they do not present a challenge to those with more experience. Buying an SS Honor dagger is the easiest thing to do, with respect to authenticating one. It takes me about 1 second to know whether or not the dagger in question is real or not. They are VERY easy to evaluate, and you yourself could do it after about 10 minutes of instruction.

Craig: As one, in your opinion, "with no experience" * I stand by my statement above of very convincing copies; however they are detectible and one familiar with Honor Daggers would be able to do so. I've examined a dozen or so honor daggers over the years which I believe constitutes some experience and probably twice as many fakes. I have never owned a Ferrari either but you can attest to the fact that,even so, I know where the battery is located in one.
*Anyone who knows me will attest to the fact that I have been buying,selling and collecting daggers for as long as Craig Gottlieb. However; I consider myself an amateur with still a lot to learn.
Jim

Jim, I hope you can explain " a dozen or so," because by our count (several advanced dealers, collectors and myself who got together about 5 years ago and counted), there were 16 known at the time. Anyway, that's just a technical point. The important thing that new collectors should take away from my comment is that the "sky is not falling" just because Johnson sold some parts once, or "the Japanese are selling super-fakes." Convincing copies? To whom? Sure, if you lack experience, then naturally, these copies might fool you, Jim.

There's a difference between observing photos, participating on forums, handling a few of somebody else's artifacts, and actually putting your money on the table to buy something. I've done that six times with SS Honor Daggers, so I think my experience in this field makes my opinion more credible than yours, when judging the quality of higher-end fakes. I'm not trying to be mean, Jim, I'm just concerned that your cry of "convincing fakes" will mislead viewers. What you should say is, "convincing to you" and then qualify your experience level.

I can also tell you that after having personally owned 50 or so Totenkopf Rings (all of which are documented on my website), that they are more complex than Honor Daggers are, and that ground-dug examples should be studied carefully. Japanese super-fakes are a joke - nothing more than pretty jewelry. The real challenge comes with the "ground dug" examples that Serge mentioned earlier.

Ownership has nothing to do with knowledge, period. An astute student of German militaria collecting can evaluate a certain piece and then without ever owning said piece determine if one is real or fake based that learned knowledge.

Jeez, Craig. You couldn't sound anymore condescending in your post to Jim. Just because you've owned some of these particular honor degens and Jim has not does not make his evaluation of the pieces any less valid than yours. Not to mention the fact that he didn't once say he was fooled by the fake degens. He said they were convincing. That would lead you to believe that a less informed collector would be fooled. Not any well traveled collector. So I must vehemently disagree with your statement. "There's a difference between observing photos, participating on forums, handling a few of somebody else's artifacts, and actually putting your money on the table to buy something. I've done that six times with SS Honor Daggers, so I think my experience in this field makes my opinion more credible than yours, when judging the quality of higher-end fakes."

I don't think putting money on the table gives you anymore knowledge. Because evaluating yours or someone else you are still able to evaluate the same darn thing! Whether you own it or not. I think throwing the money down might stimulate your ego but nothing more than that. Unless times have change that much that money equals knowledge. I think Jim's collected longer than either of us and has pull a lot of stuff personally out of the woodwork. Albeit no honor degen. But those years of experience are the most relevant thing in my opinion.

The big-time dealers don't hesitate to charge large for Dachau-type SS degens these days. Time was when the early degens were more costly and the Dachau-types were significantly lower. My guess is the early models are getting harder to find and the later ones can still be located here and there. Hence, the price has gone way up on them. I think a late degen can probably be found for $3000 to $4000, if you keep looking and have a bit of luck. Condition could still be a problem, though. Many express disdain for the later degens, but, at least, they are easy to evaluate as to appearance, materials, etc. I should note there are some of these with slight variances from "textbook." The early ones are those most seek. Better materials, generally better workmanship and a certain "aura" about them. Knowing they were awarded by Himmler himself to earlier SS officers, some of whom became notorious. Personally, I find find both types attractive for different reasons. The later ones would logically be more associated with the W-SS, while the earlier ones would be more associated with the A-SS. When you hold a real one, regardless of era, all kinds of thoughts are conjured up. It's too bad more are not available, but that's what makes them scarce, if not rare, and very special. I would appreciate information, even through a private mail, advising how to evaluate an honor dagger and why it is easy to do so. Thanks!

Even old new parts are just that PARTS is there a new breed of Atwoods on the go?
Desperation in maintaining lifestyles built on effectively dealing in stolen goods pangs of guilt giving back sashes bought years ago for pennies and unable to sell for stupid prices last seen exiting town on the barrel of a sherman

Buy the item not the story the big guys will crater this hobby with their greed
w
We need more guys like JR Grumpy Lakeside Andrew Gates Mongo Ian Dale and the others who know who they are

Even old new parts are just that PARTS is there a new breed of Atwoods on the go?
Desperation in maintaining lifestyles built on effectively dealing in stolen goods pangs of guilt giving back sashes bought years ago for pennies and unable to sell for stupid prices last seen exiting town on the barrel of a sherman

Buy the item not the story the big guys will crater this hobby with their greed
w
We need more guys like JR Grumpy Lakeside Andrew Gates Mongo Ian Dale and the others who know who they are

We,as collectors, are all amateurs if you care to listen to Craig. I counted 7 Honor daggers for sale at The MAX a few years ago. That is not counting the "Huhnlein" examples of course.
I'm not going to be condescending here nor expound on your "purported" knowledge Craig since that's well known by your reputation in the collecting community itself.
I just got home and we have dinner guests that have to be attended to but I may have more to say on this subject later.
Jim

Back in my day in the mid to late 60's when I used to visit Roger Steele's shop on Hollywood Blvd.after school, I used to think all that stuff was real. The medals, hats and even the 2nd Luft Generals sword he had in the window. It looked good, and he said it was 'original'. But I later heard the the swords were being made in Solingen again. The daggers were 'Atwoods' and the medals were 'Souval's'.

I never did see to many SSTK rings. The Viking Divison ring was 'It'. When I did see a TK ring is was rather worn. The fact that Don says there are about 500 surviving examples makes me wonder why do I see so Many today and so many that are in a mint state of preservation. I admit I don't know TK rings. I have one a 43 dated example.

The bottom line in collecting is the buyer must get knowledge on whatever he's buying. Don't depend on COA's. I just saw an auction that had several daggers with COA's from one of the biggest names in the hobby. I could tell from the photos the etch was wrong, top of one eagles head cut off, burnished panel was wrong color, etc. But it had a Big name COA on it.
If collectors don't do their own research they are going to end up with a bunch of hump-up junk.

When the fakers will make wear marks on TK rings then tumbel them in a drum and put them in the ground to be 'discovered'- we better be on top of our game or we will be suckered. And I mean that for everybody.

-serge-

Yes, my post to Jim may have sounded condescending, but the fact is that I simply have more experience dealing with these artifacts than he does. In my opinion, Jim said enough when he spoke of how scarily-convincing these SS Honor Dagger fakes were to him. I don't blame Jim for being impressed by these fakes he saw, nor should he be embarrassed by his lack of experience, and nor do I harbor any ill-feelings toward Jim; very few people have experience with them because they are so rare. And that's OKAY. Jim has more experience than I do with guns, and I'm not ashamed of that. And by the way, the only time there were multiple SS Honor Daggers on display at the MAX was in 2004, when there were 4 on my table, one on Johnson's and 1 on Brian Maederer's. I've owned 6, Jim has owned none, and so, when I say that there are no convincing reproductions out there of this dagger type, you ought to pay attention. Would I trust Jim's opinion about a reblue on a Luger, over my opinion? Sure I would. And if I made some silly statement about how "scary" reblues were in the gun field, I'd expect Jim to take me to school on that comment! His reaction wouldn't be condescending at all - it'd be appropriate.

'just because Johnson sold some parts once',

Once? ,,I know for sure both Toms had and still do have many pounds of dagger parts,,,what do you guys think they do with them? collect them?.

Japanese 'SuperFakes' ,that was years ago, they're old hat..
Some have said a near or perfect copy HR can't be made.. I firmly believe they can make a near perfect HR nowadays [we wouldn't know if perfect!].

I just got back from a trip to East Europe. There are plenty of out of work engravers/jewelers there with 30, 40 years experience that with a weeks practice can copy engrave anything and, It is known what alloy they are made from, and there is even a couple good theories on how the authentic HR was made.

Pistons/engine parts,,micrometers, wrist watches, Medical robotic parts, all WAY more complicated, light years ahead of HR method/production,,all that stuff is old school already!,,, and they can't make a good copy HR? , a freakin ring?!
Sometimes this hobby makes a joke of itself.......

"condescending" was too kind Adam,,that post was downright pompous and disrespectful ..
I agree, money and quantity don't mean a thing when it comes to expertise, only a fool believe that.........

Quote from C. Gottlieb:
"'just because Johnson sold some parts once',

I got a good laugh over this as well G as we all know and Tom has never tried to hide the fact that he bought piles of left over dagger parts stock. He has sold parts on his site and at shows for years as any collector who visis these know.

Quote from G. Bua:
condescending" was too kind Adam,,that post was downright pompous and disrespectful

After watching Craig Gottlieb tee off on others that don't agree with him I just considered the source of these remarks and have just brushed them off. I could retaliate in kind but those of you who know me know that isn't my style. I'll just let the facts here and my reputation speak for itself. It also helps to be someone in this hobby without an "Agenda" and I think many realize this is the case with me.
Jim

That's interesting.No offense Craig,but where do you know that your 6 Honor Daggers was real?There are typical signs on it ?

Best.

This thread is turning into a farce – and all because Craig thinks he can make demeaning comments about established collectors, just to imply that his own knowledge is superior. Well, I do have to comment that both Gaspare and Tobau “hit the nail on the head”.


Gaspare’s quote is: “I agree, money and quantity don't mean a thing when it comes to expertise, only a fool [will] believe that.........” (my parenthesis). Well that statement is absolutely correct – so Craig can you please explain to us - when did your handling of volume products that were being offered for sale, equate to becoming evidence of YOUR great knowledge and wisdom? I do not quite recall when your metamorphose from being an ambitious dealer (hungry for a buck at any cost) allowed you to turn into being an absolute authority on fakes – perhaps you can reveal the timing and occasion of this miraculous event to us? Maybe you were in French religious city of Lourdes at the time?

As for your comments about Jim.M not having “experience” with certain daggers – well Tobau summed it up when he asked: How you could be sure that all your SS Honour Daggers were authentic? That is a very good comment, especially so considering your track record for handling some questionable pieces that you claim to be authentic (I can provide examples if you like. I will be only too pleased to go “public” with this information – just ask and it will be done).

So, let’s look at another point here. Jim.M revealed that he had seen some SS Honour pieces, which he considered were reproduction, but which were so good that he considered it disturbing and troubling. You immediately responded with the comment that it was relatively easy to identify such things with your knowledge. In fact you stated: "It takes me about 1 second to know whether or not the dagger in question is real or not. They are VERY easy to evaluate, and you yourself could do it after about 10 minutes of instruction".

Well, that is absolutely astonishing Craig, not least because you haven’t even seen the pieces to which Jim is referring. So how do you know that you can determine (within 1 second) with absolute assurance that what Jim has seen is wrong? You have had some dubious items on your site now for more than a year – visible to all who study this subject of fakes - and yet you still haven’t worked out why they have not sold? Nevertheless you proceed to claim your absolute authority to identify fakes just from the words in an e-mail to a dagger site? I am sorry, Craig, but if you are now claiming that you have psychic powers to identify any fake on earth expressed purely from the words in an e-mail ………. then I will have to admit, I am a little bit sceptical. And also that I regard that your treatment of Jim.M was pretty disgraceful.

There is a recurring feature here, and it is worth pointing out for the benefit of all who are reading this thread. Jim.M encountered some piece(s) which he identified as being fraudulent – and seemingly convincingly so - enough to deceive a “new or less experienced” collector. Craig’s response to all this is that HE can identify such deviances within one second. Very impressive, I must say so………….I personally cannot claim such skill – but then I am no longer young enough to know everything! But come along Craig, let us put it to the test……….
How is it than when some people identify fraudulent distinctions, that you dismiss them as being irrelevant and plainly obvious to the more knowledgeable researchers (i.e. yourself); yet when you produce something in this vein which is curiously questionable because of its’ unique and distinctively questionable features, you no longer regard it as “questionable” – suddenly it becomes another “VARIATION” in your esteem - You seem think that you can write history Craig. Sorry, but you cannot!

When you are wrong – then you are WRONG! No amount of mid-west b***s*** can ever change that!

Frederick J. Stephens

Wow ! Everybody posting recently is off topic and this is now gone to trading insults. Locked for now. Pruned in a while . It is really disappointing to see this stuff from senior people.

Dave