#22620
09/04/2009 05:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
Hallo collectors,
i become this daggers some years ago from private.
The dagger were verry cheap and i bought it. But now i´m not shure is this dagger ok or a fake? Tomorrow if the sune come i can bring better pictures.
Best regards
Oliver
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#22621
09/04/2009 05:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
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#22622
09/04/2009 05:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
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#22623
09/04/2009 05:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
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#22624
09/04/2009 05:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
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#22625
09/04/2009 05:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
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#22626
09/04/2009 06:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
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#22627
09/04/2009 06:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
the blade have fine crosscraining, only the name "Ernst Röhm" was removed with a venal.
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#22628
09/04/2009 11:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
To me it looks like an original. You should show where the name is ground off. Also how far is the makermark from the crossguard ?
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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#22629
09/05/2009 01:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
thank you for your answer, i´´m happy :-)
Here more pics
10.JPG (47.03 KB, 1176 downloads)
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#22630
09/05/2009 01:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
pic 11
11.JPG (52.39 KB, 1114 downloads)
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#22631
09/05/2009 07:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
Hello, I canno't agree. I have my own partial Röhm dagger from E.P.&S. And it is mile away from this piece. Logo distance is good, but designe is poor and inscription looks also bad to me. If I'll find pictures of mine, I will post them. Best, Lukas.
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#22632
09/05/2009 07:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
Here it is. Not the best, but I hope it will help you.
001.jpg (100.27 KB, 1088 downloads) #1
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#22633
09/05/2009 07:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
#2
002.jpg (81.28 KB, 1079 downloads) #2
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#22634
09/05/2009 07:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
#3
003.jpg (78.35 KB, 1071 downloads) #3
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#22635
09/05/2009 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915 |
Hi Oliver, while the hilt on yours looks typical of a Pack, I can't say I like the blade. The inscription looks off, the motto is not the typical Pack style which is quite distinctive, and the maker mark is also not what I'd expect to see, although there are collectors that are quite happy with this version.
Have you checked for any tang markings and forge marks on the inside of the crossguards? If it hasn't been taken down already, rather laeve it be...
Red
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#22636
09/06/2009 09:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
quote: rather laeve it be...
i hear it give two inscription from Pack... Today i bring better pictures.
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#22637
09/06/2009 10:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
Agree with Redbaron. Just look at the motto. This is not a good one. Looks like Czech or Poland made.
Best, Lukas.
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#22638
09/06/2009 10:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50 |
here some more pics. The grip doesn´t go from the tang,
i think he is rustet / corrosion. He sit hard on the tang and move only 2mm up... In the upper crossguard is a "S" ? in a horseshoe? as a sign...
I spray corrosion-solver and hope tomorrow go it better... The picture with the table are iron-corrosion where come out of the grip....
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#22639
09/06/2009 10:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
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Posts: 50 |
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#22640
09/06/2009 10:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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OP
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#22641
09/06/2009 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915 |
Oliver, the crossgaurd is correct for a Pack dagger, likewise the characteristics of the hilt. This dagger has obviously been together for a long time, but I still have to say the motto, maker mark and inscription don't look right to me. It is for this very reason that many collectors avoid Pack Rohms... Where's Wags and Gailen? would love to get their opinions on this one...
Red
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#22642
09/06/2009 02:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
Again look at this motto and compare it with yours. I've seen these fake inscriptions here in Czech manytimes.
L.
003.jpg (78.35 KB, 975 downloads) #1
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#22643
09/07/2009 03:59 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
quote: Originally posted by Redbaron:
Oliver, the crossgaurd is correct for a Pack dagger, likewise the characteristics of the hilt. This dagger has obviously been together for a long time, but I still have to say the motto, maker mark and inscription don't look right to me. It is for this very reason that many collectors avoid Pack Rohms... Where's Wags and Gailen? would love to get their opinions on this one...
Red
IMO Red and Luco are correct. As mentioned already an e-pack Rohm dedication are unique to e-pack. As are other features on the dagger. I'll leave the motto alone and the makers logo, both as with Red, I don't like. But the actual dedication is not a epack that I have seen. The fine crossgraining has been removed and a sanding type pattern seen on fakes placed to look like period crossgraining - it's not. Unless Gailen says he seen one like this which I doubt, this one is a fake. My guess it is a Czech Ground Hump-up. -Sorry - Don't be concerned about the tang markings. If it's Czech blade it will have the billet clamp marks because they make the blades on period equipment from what I heard. They will also have raised letters on the tangs. Rust falling out the grip cavity...on that blade?!  Now that's easy to do, along with rusting the tang. -serge-
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#22644
10/24/2009 04:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925 |
quote: Originally posted by Luko:
#2
Luko, do you have a close-up of the trademark? Thx, Gerd
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#22645
10/27/2009 11:24 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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#22646
11/04/2009 03:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925 |
Thx for the pic  Gerd
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#22647
05/17/2010 08:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
What do you think of this one than. Partialy ground EPS - purchases many years ago. 
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#22648
05/17/2010 08:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Starting to get doubts now. 
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#22649
05/17/2010 08:22 PM
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
 3
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#22650
05/17/2010 08:23 PM
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
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#22651
05/21/2010 07:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,403
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,403 |
Easy quick test.get an ordinary Sa/NSKK dagger lay them both motto up and look at them. if it is a rohm you will notice something odd?
I admit this is not in every case but in the majority.
simples
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#22652
05/24/2010 11:46 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 200
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 200 |
I am not in possession of either dagger, at present. Would you please explain what "odd" thing I would see.. I sold my collection of over 50 different German daggers over 25 years ago and am just too frustrated to try and start putting a collection together again(plus I could NEVER afford the pieces that I use to have). But, I always enjoy learning new info about these daggers. Thanks in advance. Peace, Mark
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#22653
06/14/2010 02:55 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2 |
All the Pack daggers I have encountered always had facial features. First time I have seen Olivers and Mike PL without features. Did Pack make logos W/O facial features also? Larry
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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#22654
06/19/2010 11:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
What do you mean by facial features Larry?
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#22655
06/19/2010 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
quote: Originally posted by OverLord:
What do you mean by facial features Larry?
He means the E-pack logo, Man's face, should have eyes, nose and mouth. To have the surrounding details present but these interior missing is something you don't want to have on an e-pack. -serge- 
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#22656
06/19/2010 06:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
>>Quote from Redbaron: but I still have to say the motto, maker mark and inscription don't look right to me. It is for this very reason that many collectors avoid Pack Rohms... << Redbaron and Luko are correct. This is IMO a bad blade. I've seen these and it looks like a Czech product to me. Everything is wrong. Even the grey tone of the burnishing. As mentioned by Red, e-pack's, if you look closly, have e-pack only characteristics. Here's a e-pack Rohm Motto - compare that to the two daggers shown. -serge- 
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#22657
06/20/2010 11:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2 |
Thanks Serge for helping me with the E pack information. Good explanation! Best Larry
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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#22658
06/20/2010 08:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
quote: Originally posted by OverLord: What do you think of this one than. Partialy ground EPS - purchases many years ago.
I don't care for the dedication on this one either. Compare the area circled with Luko's example and mine. There are other issues but his one is the most glaring. -Serge- 
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#22659
06/20/2010 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
I see you have this one For Sale here now. I believe it should be withdrawn until you get more opinions on it. And this is - just my opinion. -serge- 
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#22660
06/21/2010 01:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
Makes sense. Will aim to take the auction down.
Need to investigate further.
Michal
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#22661
06/22/2010 01:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Im certainly no Rohm expert but a few observations generally about the dagger.
1. Seems in your for sale add it has a plated eagle in the grip?. Should this not have been Nickel Silver for an early Rohm One?.
2. The terrible abrasive scratching to the blade is often done to these to make them look like the dedication and front of the dagger do in fact match.
3. The blade looks like it has been sharpened down the edges. This can be as a result of the blade being polished down heavily to put the new dedication on (If it was from an erased Rohm to start with).
4. Look length ways along the blade quite often the fake ones are no longer straight on the reverse. They look rippled against the light and the central ridge goes wavey.
5. If you look at the abrasive scratching by the makers mark it looks like it goes under the actual scratching that supposidly removed the name? not the other way around. This would mean that the blade was scratched up before the dedication was removed???.
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#22662
06/22/2010 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
All valid points Mongo. Not sure if I get the last one though.
I have like 4-5 eps rohms altogether so will try to make a comparative "family" photos.
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#22663
06/23/2010 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Here is another one of mine. No facial as well. I always felt this is genuine. 
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#22664
06/23/2010 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
2 
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#22665
06/23/2010 10:17 PM
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
3 
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#22666
06/23/2010 10:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
And logo again. 
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#22667
06/23/2010 10:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
I guess the logo after derohming is a tricky topic. Any thoughts on this one with a face off EPS MM?
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#22668
06/24/2010 03:43 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
Overlord...your files are Overkill. Messing with my computer. Just wanted to respond in case no one else does. Oh the second dagger... I like that one better. OK? But please No-More. 
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#22669
06/24/2010 08:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 865 Likes: 1 |
sorry guys. Shocked they are so large. they are standard on my pc.
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#22670
06/25/2010 12:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2 |
Can`t ask for better detail than that!!
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4
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Joined: Oct 2009
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I think we should ask Galian David and Houston Coates for their opinions.
Regards, Andrew
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
Guys, no need to get overexcited about those little eyes and noses. Sometimes the etchings are very crude. See this one (100% original, just overpolished).
I'd also like to notice that in case of ex-Röhm blades the face might be simply gone during the dedication removing process.
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Posts: 865 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Hmmm... I would not buy it. This kind of explenation allows every FAKE rohm to pretend to be OK simply because it is a consequence dedication removing proces.
Oh - and the whole discussion about the closed or opened hammer becomes obsolete with this finding. In this MM the "ALIEN" is hiting with the stick instead of the hummer!!
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693 |
I have not made a great study of Pack Rohm daggers so I am not commenting on this dagger. However, I can say that you can see at least 13 or 14 different variations of their TM. Some may be do to a worn template but still, there is great diversity in their original daggers.
Best Wishes,
Bob
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 194
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 194 |
So is there a correct dimension for the trademark to crossguard distance ? I know E Pack did not shift the TM on their Rohm daggers as some did.
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