UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Jeweler done, owner done, post-war?

Hey Guys,
This one I've had for three weeks or so. I need to take some time to get some good pics. But, from looking at some of these types, it has that jeweler-done look. I had one guy look at the grammar, and I hope Ralph will chime in as to what he feels about it.

I'll throw a few pics out there and eagerly await your opinions. (this could have been done last week in the garage)

The piece may have an issue or two, but I like it - what's your opinions?

Regards,
Steve

2

Steve,

Beautiful piece with a little mystery, something I like. How's the rivets?

Billy:

Unfortunately, this is the kind of work that doesn't require the grip plates to come off, IMHO.

Steven:

Despite my comment above, I think it's neat. I am not personally into personalized thingies (I try for a pun here... not very successfully, I guess), but it is fascinating. Others with way more knowledge and experience than me (and that is most of you) should chime in.

Price would be a big factor for me on this.

John

While the overall look is not bad, the execution of the engraving is not quite what I would consider the work of a master engraver.

What I look for with items like this is some kind of indication that the blade was brand new when it was engraved - versus used/worn. If I can determine that it was noticeably later (like yesterday) I pass, or if I was unsure, it could be a decrease in what I would pay instead of a premium. Fred

John, F.P. and Billy,
Thanks for your thoughts. This type of piece is extremely hard to validate. But if somebody has a dagger with jeweler-done monograms and such, they want it validated because of the overall value of the dagger. Most of the bayos can be found relatively cheap. I'll show a poor man's Panzer done which just doesn't conform to the book. It'll also show a monogrammed blade, I have many like this because they're fun to look at and examine, and figure out whether it's period or not. Its all about the fount's and grammer.

Anything that's not textbook is very hard on these, as with all collectibles. Maybe I'll start a thread on the personalized ones. One jeweler may not be as skilled as another. Personalized bayos differ as well. Another example is trench art. A skilled artist or not-so-skilled, but personalized nevertheless.

Thanks to all for your opinions.

Regards,
Steve

We all have our niches that get us, I know Steve's is monogrammed & personalized dress bayonets. It's very hard not to see what the attraction is, especially with those beautiful jeweler done pieces. Not factory but certainly not ordinary.

John,

I presumed this blade was done post assembly but often times find blades with work on 'em have popped rivets. This one very well could be unscathed. I kinda like that it isn't done by a master jeweler too.

Steve,

Hang onto it with John around, it's an Eick!

Billy:

Mine is not a niche... it's an itch. And it sure requires a lot of scratch to satisfy it.

Steven:

The monogrammed blade is cool!

John

Here is a professionally engraved J.A. Henckels that was a direct vet purchase 40 years ago.
Weinachten 1939
Stab 2 Pi.Pk. Kp. 561

John,
The monogrammed blade is the first I've seen on a bayo but certainly not the only one out there. I've seen the monograms on sword blades as well. Most often seen on the bayonet pommels.

Denny,
I love that one! Put me on the waiting list for that piece. Someday maybe I can trade you out of it. Spock has one he posted a few years ago that I really like as well. If he still has it, maybe he can repost it. By the way can you get a closeup pic of the engraving? I would love to see the detail.

Regards,
Steve

John,

Well said, I'm scratching wth you.

Gents. I have wondered if the soldiers had access to electric engravers during the period? I have seen examples with elec. pencil or dremel engraved inscriptions and own one example, but have so far never gotten an answer to the question. Have tried numerous searches for antique engravers but only come up with hand tools.

Have also seen examples where the inscription was applied with a nail or other pointed object.

--dj--Joe

Joe,
I don't know how available electro-tools were at the time, but they were definately in existance - witness the electrostenciled serial numbers on the small parts of G.41's and G/K.43's.

Easily available now, that's one of the problems with the decoration of dress items. They were in existence, but seem to have been used in factory type settings. Also being seen later/after dress weapons had ceased production.

I've tried to find out just when production of the tool actually began (and it might not have been in Germany). But so far - no luck. Fred

Denny, Fred, thank you both for your replies.

So at least an owner could take his item to a shop or an armourer perhaps(?), and have it stenciled. If in the field use a nail.

I can locate no production dates on the tools either.

Regards,--dj--Joe

Hmmm, perhaps I should be looking at pneumatic engraving tools for period production dates..

--dj--Joe

Those are even later. Technology has come a long way, and a lot of what we take for granted either did not exist or was very expensive, Fred

FP and Joe,
I was really surprised that you brought up the types of things that may have been used at the time to create such poor man's etches. I wish I knew more myself. I have wondered how to find such information.

I have seen a few styles that differ in some ways. I will try to post some pictures this weekend. I look at trench art often, especially the ground dug stuff coming out of Russia. Canteens, mess kits and tobacco cases as well as cannon shells.

There is a middle ground between jeweler-done and personalized-by-owner. I also look at the German dogtags and the stamped fonts to help with unit mark stuff. When you collect outside the box, it's a very big box and there are many unanswered questions. It would be foolish to think that all my questions could be answered on this topic in my lifetime. I just hope it keeps the interest alive for future collectors.


Steve,

Steve, I look forward to what you have to show.

Here are some poor shots of one of my examples. A name I can not make out even with a loop. No knowledge of when it was inscribed. It is very lightly done.

--dj--Joe

A negative image of the 2nd. shot.
It might show the etch lines a little better.

--dj--Joe

I wonder how long engraving pens have been available? Diamond tip and tungston carbide tip.

Here is a modern example.

--dj--Joe

Joe,
On the one that you show, it looks like it was partly removed. It's hard to tell but I wonder what it said before it was altered.

My pics are so-so today. My camera is limited. Maybe I'll ask Santa this year for a new one I'd like to set up a dedicated space in my house for photography where I can control the light better.

On some of the personalized bayos I've seen, many are found with some form of 'in memory of service time' somewhere on the bayo. Often includes date, but not always. In the first two shots, it looks like a his-and-hers personalization. The first side has a beer mug with name, date and service time; the other side has a flower and translates something like:

"By horse and by woman should man look at class"

The third pic shows service time, date and ricasso information. The fourth and fifth pics are from the 2nd and the 3rd machine gun battalions. I have a few others I will post later. This is completely up for discussion; as I said earlier, I know these are hard to validate.

Regards,
Steve

Words to live by I guess Great bayonet Steve.

A few more monogramed bayos to add, these have been posted before.

Steve,

One more monogrammed bayo. I acquired this bayo for my collection from very reputable forum member.

Interesting pieces being shown. Thanks all.

--dj--Joe

A stamped version?

Andrei,

a very interesting bayo, I see many styles.

this one looks owner done it has that zig zag look. different tool? different style of same tool? I'll add a ashtray with almost same look. Those that have Arc welded know. people that do it all have there own bead style.

we see these with a frosted look that flows and some with a dotted look. i'll ad more in when i have time

steve,

Terry, Stamped my rear:)
That looks jeweler done to me. This guy abviously did not need to buy the 44 magnum with the 8" barrel

I like it, you and others always keep me looking for the new one. thanks

Steve,

Steven

After I read your post I looked at my bayo again. What I had seen was the raised metal around the periods and assumed it had been stamped. Well I think the periods were stamped and the rest hand engraved. I'm never to old to learn.

Terry,

I love to see you show how stuff looks through that microscope. Really a new perspective to things right in front of us already.

Steve,

I always enjoy seeing your personalized stuff. Anything new picked up lately?

I've picked up a couple items--Smith&Wesson 627-5 and a 45 long colt rifle. Oh you mean bayonets Bayonets are my winter sport.

Terry,
On your personalized bayo, the initials look true blue jeweler done. As far as the dots, they look a bit stamped; it may have been easier to do but I really like it nonetheless. The small style is a bit new to me, but for the owner it's how he wanted it. That's what makes these pieces fun.

Billy,
Here's a new one. I've had this one about two months. As always, it's open for discussion.

Regards,
Steve

Luftwaffe - this pic shows a man associated with a heavy fighter group. I'll post some more pictures later this weekend. This is from an old file. The blade's full on both sides as well as the spine. A very early piece, unfortunately no date anywhere on it. There are six airfields listed as well as a bunch of names at the bottom of the blade. Could those have been friends/crew members?

I'll get some more pics of it and post them. It has some condition issues. A previous owner evidently thought it would be better if it was sharpened. But she's got stag grips

Regards,
Steve

An etched number on blade at this link.
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62505#Post62505

--dj--Joe

Joe,
Thanks for the link. That was right around the time I joined, I think. I may have missed it.

I have time to add some more pics today. The first three are a few more of the Luft posted earlier.

4 5 and 6 are Ricasso markings you'll see occasionally. Some are initials, some designate area or unit.

7-11

Two more to add, the last one has what looks like some type of cypher on the blade. Unknown? Looks like J over R, but it may be F A. That would make more sense to me for Friedrich August II.

Regards,
Steve

Steve great photos.
Gaspare's ring that starts this topic off
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=226157#Post226157
shows the zig-zag etch.

--dj--Joe

Looks like these two got lost from my last post. so here they are. I think Ihave two more to add yet.


steve,

Last two, If some of our members here that understand German grammar could add some thought on the two of these. please feel free.


I hope some of you enjoyed seeing some of the bayos that can be collected outside the box

thanks,
Steve.

This one looks jeweler done but is actually a factory done etch. Eichhorn and Henckels produced this type. Most of the finish is gone from inside the etch, it's not a mint example of this type. But still they are very difficult to obtain for a collection. Some of our members here have beautiful examples of both types.

Steve

Steve,
Can't remember for sure, but I may have posted this Eickhorn a few years ago. Anyway, I guess it fits the subject of this thread.

 

Denny, thanks for posting that one. I've seen a number of those that resemble that layout. Each one seems to be individually interesting in some way. I've always had an interest in those.

Steve

P.S.: Could you post some closeups of the Henckels you posted earlier? I'd really like to see that. Thanks, Steve

Here is an interestingly marked blade that belongs to a friend. Maker mark? Distributor? Privately engraved?

Hi,
the first one says "du solst nicht töten" witch translates to "you shall not kill" , number 13 of the ten commandments from Exodus.
the second one says "uns geht die sonne nicht unter" witch translates to "we are not under the sun" witch is the name of a Hitlerjugend song book.
I hope this helps
Regards, Ted

I still find this older thread of interest and return to read it every so often.

--dj--Joe

I'm certainly not an expert but very interested in this subject since I joined this hobby and did amass a great amount of literature until my x trashed it. As it turns out this subject runs off into other parts of our hobby like jewelry, rings etc. from this period and the details of how they are made which is in the literature as well and just about anything thats stamped, engraved or marked..I love marks of any kind really...Just came upon this thread I think.

As we all know and realize It takes a lot of training to be a very proficient engraver, so skilled engravers during this period advertised and looked for employment. I think some, maybe a few jewelers might have or were trained and skilled or not so skilled but most employed/utilized a skilled engraver to do the work. So a master jeweler more than likely is not a master engraver or vise versa. A well known and popular manuscript was used by engravers and jewelers to utilize and show customers the many styles they could choose from. Many of the monogramed engravings shown are directly from this book and thats why we see a lot of different styles and the same popular stylized monograms. And yes engraving machines electro magnetic machines, etching needles, drills, a Burin or Graver which are engraving hand tools, Roulettes of various types, etc etc. were used and or a combination thereof. Best!

Here are some examples of etching and engraving on miniature KS98 bayonets.

Here are some examples of good period done jeweler style engraving.