UBB.threads Forums General Interest Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum Rust removal

Hi guys- I have an issue of daggers getting an excessif rust and I thought maybe you can advise of best ways to get rid of it.

Intrestingly this dagger was purchased on this forum and was clean of any rust - almost mint when I bought it. I suppose there must be some good derusting techniques. Anyway have I put it in a drawer an 6 months later!!! Disaster!

How close to the ocean do you live? If not close are you in an area with a lot of manufacturing?
Jim

None of those. It is in Warsaw (not a manufacturing city really) and was in the standarr dagger holder the whole time. Any quick fixes?

Hi guys,

Im having a similar problem with a blade. I found a link to a product somewhere, forgot where? But, check this out;

http://www.vankaathoven-tt.nl/shop/index.php?action=page&group_id=10&lang=NL&lang=EN

Theres a page with testresults of that product;
http://picasaweb.google.nl/vankaathovenTT/AntiqueWeapons#

Has anyone used such a product before? I'm still figuring out what "my" best solution would be. Just thought the link might be interesting. Again, I dont know that product myself!

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

I've never been in Warsaw but all I can say is usually,and I do mean usually, rapid rusting like this is caused by exposure to salt air or airborne pollution from manufacturering combined with relatively high humidity. Unless there's another,unknown source, the only suggestion I can make is to carefully remove as much of the rust as possible with Simichrome or a similiar product and coat your edged weapons with a good quality hard paste wax. I would additionally recommend frequent inspections to see if the rusting problen is now eliminated.
Let us know how this works out.
Jim

Depending where in Warsaw you could be right by water [river].. The main part of the city has some pretty good pollution due to the many gas and disel cars/trucks. Everytime I'm there I don't know whether to roll my cab window up or down
My friends gift shop in old town keeps his silver items in special cases due to the tarnish they were getting!
I'd say Jims suggestion is best........

Researching why some political daggers that seemed to have nickel plating that was (or should have been) thick enough to resist corrosion did not - I came across an interesting piece of information. It was a listing of cities and what might be expected in the way of results from exposure to the surrounding atmosphere.

To �cut to the chase�, I suspect that there is sufficient sulphur in the air to cause the problems here, and it might not be just vehicles. If the area gets its power from plants that use coal, (or for heating in the winter, paper mills etc.) that could also be a major contributor.

There is a ton of information (and various methods) available on corrosion and corrosion control. But to �cut to the chase� again - after the corrosion is neutralized/removed it might be advisable to store affected items in a sealed (airtight) container like a case. With something like a VPI (Vapor Phase Inhibitor) like the military. Fred

Hi Fred,

That is interesting ... so, thats a list of environmentfacts, worldwide? Is that info that can be found somehow? I mean, what's the verdict on Rotterdam'ish area? With a radius of say 30 kilometres? (That's called radius, right? Distance from a point to a circlecenter?) Can I find that?

Maybe this specific facts have other terminology, but, that means that, bigger collections or museums, store/treat their things different?

Wondering,
Karin-Renate

Hello Karin,

There is quite a bit of environmental information out there now. But I was looking more at specific information that engineers might have had in the same approximate time frame as the daggers were made (and a little later). And neither Warsaw or Rotterdam were mentioned.

That said, I can offer some general observations. I remember being in Rotterdam (a very long time ago) but it was in early summer and there was a haze (water vapor) in the air, but it was not the ugly brownish eye burning type that Los Angeles and some other cities were, or are, famous for (although to be fair LA is currently much better). I also have a recollection of a German Army (postwar) arms room that was better heated than the living areas with very well oiled small arms in racks. When I asked my hosts why, I was told that it was to prevent rust.

And while living in Germany I spent most of my time at various places located on the northern coastal plain. And there was usually an airflow across the area. Whereas in LA the city is ringed in by mountains which tend to concentrate the pollutants. With my point being that living within a 30 KM radius is one factor. But perhaps more importantly (IMO) is the direction/speed of the average wind currents, and the physical topography.

As for museums that is a topic for another day. Because the display/storage problems at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam are not going to be the same as those of the Tojhusmuseet (Royal Danish Arsenal) in Copenhagen. Versus the Getty in Los Angeles (etc.).

PS: A brief question - is it better (or more customary) to address you as Karin-Renate or Karin? (When I was addressed by multiple names myself, it was usually by my mother, and I was in big trouble.) .

Best Regards, Fred

Hi Fred,

Thanks, again, for much info here! Your observations, Im sure the 1s in the US are right, Ive never been there, but Rotterdam, weeeell, my apartment there, somewhere in the middle of it all? Sometimes, the windowwasher actually shows up, and does windows? All of a sudden, there's bright light inside! And everything has a lot more colour! WITHIN 1 WEEK, when you open the window, and run a finger along the glass? Its dirtblack! Now Im some 30 kilometres away from my place, and, I noticed, I don't need to blow my nose every night? Also windows are not rubbing off that black stuff here. Much less anyway. And there seems to be less dust? So, environment must be an issue ... interesting. "My" paper items are now stored with acidfree covers or backingpaper. All metals must be protected as well! When it starts to give in to rust, it can only be delayed, not stopped!

My name, actually, I remember discussing this a while back? Can't remember where or who it was, but, that's my malfunctioning head, and nothing personal, but I dont think it was with you? So, I'm safe I think Or did we, and am I insulting you for forgetting? Anyhow, customary, I dont think there are custom ways, especially online. Im funny, in that, my mom picked my name. My father only had boys names, wasn't expecting my gender to have the upper hand. I hated my name when I was little, too complicated, and, gave kids too many opportunities for making stupid jokes with it. Bw����rgh ... No, my mom, when she called me Kaat (we have an a-sound, like the German a, almost? So, its not like your Kate, as in Kate Moss? But, Kaat, long aaaaa, think German a) When she sayd THAT, with those lips pressed in a straight line and her grey'ish-blue'ish icecold piercing eyes not letting go of me, THEN, there was trouble!! Wasnt much of that though. Reckon I was a sweety at that stage My mom usually called me Renaat. Again, long a-sound, same as Kaat. But people call me all sortsa things. Like, Karin, Karen, Kar, Kaat, Kaatje, Kaar (this is used most by friends, now I think of it), Kaartje, Kat, Katje, Renaat, Renaatje, Renate (also, think german a, not your "Kate" a *LOL*), ofcourse Karin-Renate, and, sometimes even plain K, which is fine. Maybe I forgot some. Me myself, I use my full name, and, I don't hate it anymore, I care for it even, as my mom wanted it that way? So, Im honouring her wish, in a way. Probably foolish, maybe, to you, and if she would be here still, I'd probably think otherwise and hate my name, or maybe I'd have grown out of hating it anyway, I dunno. I used to think, that, anything else then Karin-Renate was for people closer to me. But, what's the point? So, no, you can call me Karin. I like Karin, most people "online" shorten it like that, its fine. Ive also been called things online that made me terribly angry, or terribly sad, or terribly puzzled, so, compared to THAT, anything else is much nicer. You'd be surprised how negatively creative people can get But, I do understand, I'm somewhat genderly outnumbered, so I need to respect the "unwritten law" when/where I find them ... I'll get it some day, really, I will *LOL*

Sooooohw, brief question, leads to unbrief answer ... I'll hush now

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Hello Karin,

Yes, the local environment can certainly be a problem (by a factor of over 100 to one depending on where you live), and to a large extent dictates how we keep items stored or displayed. One of the pieces of information that I saw suggested the following: That there is usually only a relatively small amount of a corrosion/tarnishing agent like sulphur in the air at any given time. And by putting the item in some kind of sealed container (reducing the air exchange), it limits the exposure to fresh contaminants. To which I would add: If you can�t control the (high) humidity. Something like a VPI (or a fresh/unsaturated desiccant) might also be needed.

I had not seen where you discussed your name before, so what you say explains the hyphenated name. It was a little confusing to me as we see here in the U.S. sometimes hyphenated last names for some married women. (But not usually with first names.) I also understand better than you might think on the influence mothers have on their children's names. Because I shared the same first name as my father, my mother called my by my middle name to avoid confusion (and so did everyone else). Until I left home for school, the military etc.

PS: Especially with the nickel plated items you really want to do the cleaning/rust removal process just one time if that is possible. That�s because the plating is porous, and the more nickel you take off by polishing it - the more susceptible it is to corrosion.

Best Regards, Fred

Hi Fred!

You sure ALWAYS do have me work my dictionaries + Oxford Advanced Learners, Fred *LOL* Which is cool, I like it! So, unsaturated desiccant (wow!), most private collectors are out of that league, I guess, I mean, we're not all as huge collectors as Wittmann (LOOK at his stash ) But, I guess, wherever I am, Im near water. Rotterdam, world harbor; water. Where I am now; when I walk 25 metres, Im in the river Merwede. Which leads to Rotterdam even. Lots of humidity. A air-humidity-controled room would work maybe. Or tanks. But tanks, they would spoil the fun of enjoying your stuff! But, yes, destruction by rot or rust does that too


Anyway, I never clean plated stuff! I only oil plated crossguards with the oil I use for the blades, nothing more. Nickle silver I cleaned, yes, like Old W�sty, in the Herbertz&Meurer topic somewhere. Plated, is scary, 1ce its gone, its gone!


Speaking of cleaning, did any1 use 1 of them electric devices? That work with fluid, but not with electrolyse (is that correct??)? I believe jewellers use it to clean things? Like, ultrasonic.


Oh, I think, I didnt discuss my name publically, but rather with some1 by mail or PM? It stands out, which can be a problem too, but, we have all sorts of hyphened names here; Jan-Willem, Karel-Paul just to name 2 (men) colleagues of mine, or Anne-Bregje, a (girl) friend of mine. Married women, yes, they can either take the mans name, or their own name, or both. Mostly, richer people do the last option. Or children from divorced-remarried parents I think? Or is that not correct? My last name has no hyphen. And marriage ... weeeeell, nope, never was, and I have WAY other plans 1st Besides, wasnt marriage just beneficial to men? *LOL*


Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Here are a few pictures of my attempt at rust removal.before and after shots.

next

after

all my pictures are too big to load. but i used a Super Eraser, it's like a big ink eraser made to remove rust and tarnish,it's made in the usa,it seems to work good as long as you go with the grain. i have better pictures but i am having a problem loading them sorry.

I'll try again

other side

my picture aint the best but you can see how it cleaned up using only a pencil and eraser

Hi Wes-143,

That is amazing!? So, you use something like this? I know grey spots is not rust, but, some sortof rust anyway, no? Will it help for that too?

Thank you,
KR

I think they work pretty good , i would love to show you one but i cant get that picture to resize so i can upload it here. but that blade was cleaned with only a pencil and eraser.

I just clicked your HERE & THERE links and that looks like the right kind, I havent tried to clean a nice blade with one of these, I would worry about getting it even and staying with the grain. Another words if you only try it on spots it would show the blotches i think. To clean up a real bad blade it worked nice because there was no shine before, and after is was like a satin finnish.

Thank you much for your trouble Wes-143! Maybe I"ll go try, on just the tiniest grey spot, but if I understand you correct, I need to do ALL of the blade, not just a little spot .. scary! Your result is very amazing! Too bad your pics wont load? Its a nice red cross blade, no?

It may work ok on small spots, but it might be good to polish it after with some cream, then maybe the spots will not be noticable...good luck and if you try could you show us the results when your done?

Hi Wes-143, yes ofcourse, I"ll show the result. I ~think~ I'm gonna try it on a RZM 7/36 blade first, maybe, the Eickhorn, weeell, its not truly THAT bad, could be a lot better, but, still .. and the RZM 7/36, is less special. Lots of superfucial rust? I posted it one time somewhere here, but, wrong section, and it got removed I think. Anyways, yes, I'll post. Thank you again!

I have used these erasers on scabbard fittings and hangers and other metal parts, they all turned out much nicer the when i recived them.... but i have been worried about trying it on something special like my Himmler dagger incase i ruin it.

A Himmler dagger? Like, 1 of these?? Woops .. best leave it be, maybe? Oh, and, plated rusted scabbards, the erasertrick won't work there I guess? It will take off the plating?

it works good on plated scabbard fittings as long as it's not bubbling,the surface rust comes right off with a light rubbing,but again you got to go with the grains side to side

here's what i used

Get some Renwax ASAP, mate

Rust on the blade, try a pencil. Just rub the pencil lead over the rust spots and wipe off. Scabbard, use silicon spray and rub with a soft cotton cloth. Eiter method will leave the original surface intact. If you post a photo, it would help

Hi Wes-143,

A while ago, on an auctionsite, a dagger showed up, in awful state. Rusty, beaten up, nicked. Just for fun, a low bet was put, and thought, even this price will be outbid for sure. But it wasnt?! Oops! So, I worked for weeks and months, just watching a movie, polishing with towels or old clothes, and Simichrome polishing paste. I didnt make "before" pics, but the seller photos must be somewhere still, trying to find them. The blade was brown, from what seller called it Fl�grost. Very nasty to get away. It helped to oil it with something called wd40 (probably means something? dunno) for some days, and then, wipe it off, and supergently work some silky cloth very softly, along with the crossgrains. Very very slowly, the blade got metal'ish look and color.

Some trouble spots remained tho. The rust looked deeper/thicker/ruff there. And THATS where your eraser came in! Very slow, I used this as eraser, and .. not removed, but made less anyway .. the rusting. Brown ruffer spots got blacker, greyer, and lost bubles/ruffness. Hardest was to keep go slow, not haste things to see the end result, also to keep rubbing away the motto or makermark. And, when put away, everytime wipe the blade in wd40, let it soak.

The last polishturns was with a tiny bit of Simichrome. And, if you saw how it was, you wont recognize this thing at all! The eraser did a miracle job. If you look at the scabbard you can eazy understand how bad the rust was. The first thing, I did, was oil the grip! When you turned loose the pommel, flakes jumped off the grip. You can see that in pics 3, 4 and 5. The wood, was so dry, it cracked when it got less tension. I used just BreakFree Collector oil, let it dry, put on again, let it dry. After a week, try to unwind the pommel, very very slowly, and if a flake threatened to come, stop, oil again. The wood feels better now but it had some flake damage. The crossguards, were not as bad as the scabbard and blade, but, there was a bit of flaking/rusting on the low guard. This was cleaned in a ultrasound cleaner A friend has such a thing at a university to use, and, I thought a new/better guard can be found, worth a try, no? The upper guard was OK after a very gentle silkcloth polish, and left it at that.

So, the pics show, 2 trouble spots on front and back of the blade. Front, all over "Deu" and "land". The back has 2 spots like that, with 1 over the makermark.

...

...
The eraser kept the mark very well (pic 6). Pics 7 and 8, show the nick on the side between r from "f�r" and D from "Deutschland". Also the dark spots that were very rusty. Pics 9 and 10, show the scabbard, but the rust is more deep even there I think? The fittings cant get loose from the scabbard for to clean eazier. It is getting the superslow working the blade got, but, I think, the result will be less, the plating is gone? Anyway, just to show the eraser-technique Wes-143 explains above. Thanks Wes-143!

Cheers,
KR

It looks pretty good, I bet you can get more off the blade, you might try some oil with the eraser and try a sharpe pencil in the lettering,along a few more hours of elbow greese. On my red cross blade I found I was able to remove most the water stains as well. The scabbard fitting looks like it's beyond cleaning and would need to be replaced. I bet it looks good compared to the way you got it? ....GOOD JOB....

Thanks Wes-143 It actually was fun! If I ever have enuff nerves to attack the darker spots and threaten crossgrains, I"ll post! And that scabbard, yes, yes, it looks bad, but, nice for display anyways! I rrrealy cant get the fitting to get loose! Itsooaked and soaked, but, no nothing! The little screws go out, but thats it Im afraid. Thanks again! The eraser tip saved this one, no? Anyone else tried it?

Cheers,
KR

Rusty scabbard fitting are tough to get off. I have had good luck removing the throat by placing an old metal glass cutter (F shaped cutter) inside the throat and holding it with pliers and lightly tapping the pliers to get it off. then you can get some WD-40 behind the fitting.The bottom fitting is a little harder because you cant really get a hold of it anywhere and you dont want to dent it, but you can try freezing it to shrink the metal a little sometimes this will help remove the bottom fitting.

here is my SA Dagger that i cleaned up with the eraser and pencil trick. It turned out pretty good as well,check it out before and after shots

N I C E ! Im still not done with the scabbard Wes, sry! Its rrrreally stuck?! Your tegnique, no go yet getting it loose, or maybe, Im not doin it right .. I dont wanna wreck it, but, will keep you surely posted!

Cheers,
KR