UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum 121/34 SS For opinions

I no longer have a good full on photo of a 120/34 but I can tell you that the etch is like that of E. Pack with an extended curved upper portion of the "M" in the word Meine. Several forum members including myself believe that the 120/34's may in fact be a Pack product because of the etch, the distinctive Pack-like scabbard fittings and the shape of the grip.

Also I should point out that while Hammesfahr did not apparently receive an SS contract code, neither did two of the most common SS makers; R. Herder and Boker.

Oh my everything by everyone theory is:

Alternatively, I came to a conclusion that everything produced by everyone (all the contracted SS dagger manufacturers) in mid (post R�hm purge re-think/shuffle) to late 1934 was lumped together into two administration references, 120 and 121. This was then consolidated into the one third new SS administration reference for 1935; number 188 (there are no other numbers for this year!)

1936 Introduction of the 36 model: 188 again represented the 1933 model service dagger grouped together with Klittermann and L�neschloss as top-up's? (I'm still working on them and their specialities). SS code 807 represented the blank (unmarked) blades produced for the new model 36. Eickhorn (941) producing Honour daggers, etc.,

1937 Eickhorn (941) still producing Honour daggers etc., Klittermann now with the SS code 324.

120/121/188 service 1933 model daggers still in stock so no new admin numbers required.

1938 a vertitable explosion in SS recruitment: 120 stock has run out 188 stock has run out. Gottlieb Hammesfahr, 121, is given it's second major contract. Everyone else mucks in to make as many daggers as possible!

You get the picture, guys? I'm still working through my database to bring this to a conclusion. So, the more help the better.

Skyline,

B�ker didn't have a drop-forge and may not have played a significant role in later production of SS daggers. They were quite a diverse company.

R. Herder did have a drop-forge: they may have formed part of the elusive 120 reference; if I were to stick my neck out now I'd say the 120 etch pictures I do have here are not E.P. & S. they are Richard Abr. Herder - but I wasn't going to commit to that yet just in case a second and third etch pattern came in for 120 but if you're sure your 120 etch matched E.P. & S. perfectly then 120, like 121 may have been a collaborative venture?

The Pack etch and the R. Herder etch are very similar if not identical. However, the 120/34's have that Pack style scabbard fitting unknown to any other maker. Below is a comparison of a typical placement of the scabbard screws on the left scabbard fitting, and the Pack style 120/34 on the right.

Skyline, you may well be right about the similarities between E.P. & S and R Herder. I don't have enough references to work from and Wittmann's are too oblique for me to trust as references.

The interesting thing here though is that the reference motto pics I have been sent for 120/34 are the same as R. Herder and, if you're right, E.P. & S.. Can you remember the crossguard markings for your 120/34?

That would possibly have R. Herder and E.P. & S. as principle contractors for 120's and possibly Hammesfahr and F. Herder. A.S. the same for 121's.

But I still think these 120 and 121's are pooled orders with major component contributors and minor assembler/finishers.

Unfortunately, I don't have a clear memory of what the internal crossguard markings were.

I put the above coding system badly.

1933/34 saw the introduction of the SA and SS dagger: This was under the leadership of R�hm (R�hm was senior to Himmler at this point).

June 1934 the R�hm purge: Himmler and the SS now have control of their own destiny. (This is why the TK ring is issued, not for the purge itself but because the SS have autonomy)

They immediately start to apply their will: besides having their political NSDAP RZM codes the SS decide all model 33 SS dagger manufacturers are given a separate SS administration code.

Eickhorn is commissioned to make the Himmler Ehrendolch.

The 33 dagger is coded according to administrative orders: as stocks run out manufacturers are required to produce daggers post the purge. Pooled orders are created: 120 and 121.

By some point in 1935 these run out or low, so a new order is placed: 188/35. This together with the balance of 120/34 and 121/34 see out 1935.

In 1936 more model 33's are needed so 188/36 is generated as a pool order with others taking up the slack. Amongst them Klittermann and L�neschloss.

The model 36 upgrade causes confusion with the numbering system so any numbers/marks aredropped for the 36 dagger. This makes sense as Eickhorn, Herder, etal may have protested, not liking the idea of a different manufacturers trademarks or codes being on each others dagger.

807/36 may have been an additional order for model 33's

941 Eickhorn re-etch old pre 36 blades with their SS number 941, as per SS procurement orders.

1937 stocks of 188 and 807 suffice (Klittermann confuses me)

1938 There is a huge increase in SS recruitment: Hammesfahr/F. Herder, 121, (Is re-commissioned) and most of the old manufacturers get to work producing.

Notice in this year nearly all the old SS dagger manufacturers, despite having made daggers in 1934, suddenly have SS administration numbers over 1000! Doesn't this raise questions amongst SS collectors?

Anyway, there is still much for me to mull over... So this is obviously just a crude suggestion, I'm not clued up on SS daggers but I'm sure you have the answers at your fingertips.

Looked at another way:

1934 After maker marks are dropped you have two SS dagger makers?
1935 One maker?
1936 Five makers?
1937 Two makers?
1938 Sixteen makers?!! (11 with codes over 1000)
1939 Eleven makers?
1940 Three makers?

As major sub-contractors R. Herder, F. Herder, G. Hammesfahr and E. Pack would not have been given their own numbers.

As direct suppliers (as two became; one in 1938, F. Herder and one in 1939, E. Pack, they would have been given SS supplier numbers...but note how high those numbers are)

The above looks a bit strange because I left out the Logo only makers during the transitional stage. I'm only looking at SS/RZM codes though.

I also meant to ask if SS 1189 really exists or is this an error in Wittmann's Vol IV. He doesn't include a picture of it and I can't find where this number comes from.

If the theory I have is right then it shouldn't exist or their is an anomaly.

Mr Jackson Sir
Just catching up on this most fascinating analysis.
Have I missed something here?
Where is Boker in all of this?
I have a 121/38,reading toward the tip.
Everything about it is screaming Boker.Ex Wittmann piece.????

Hello Seiler,

I'm still doing my analysis, the conclusions I'm making I cannot verify until I get additional data from vintage SS dagger collectors. But I think there are going to be some surprises.

SS Collectors should be asking where are:

Backhaus
B�ker (R)
Bertram
Gembruch
Hammesfahr (R)
Herder R. (R)
Jacobs
Kober (R)
Krebs
Louper
Puma

Who or what were 807 to appear and never to reappear. Why Klittermann and L�neschloss are the only SS makes to use their political RZM code in 1936 when 188 and 941 are apparent SS not RZM codes?

If you have any info to contribute, please do so.

regards,
Neal

Still hooked on what you are doing.
Pulled my 124/38 apart for the first time.Tighter than a drum!
Upper. guard internal mark "B",lower "O"tang marked with the letter "o" Deep black motto.In fact a classic Boker!!
On your list of SS maker marks early cant answer BUT
Louper (Louis Pearlman)I have a very early SA beautiful fit then there is Stewarts SS found here in UK with the small motto.Never seen others?
They didnt last long in my opinion because they suffered from the anti-semitic damage done on business/arts/life purges and simply "went "out of business.No RZM number issued.
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Oops,just found M7/58
torpedoes that!!!

Seiler, is your dagger marked 124/38 or 121/38? It should be 121/34 or 121/38 if it's a B�ker assembled/finished model 33.

Also, please compare closely the two down-strokes in the letter "T" of Treue with the samples below; Is your "T" type "A" or type "B".

Seiler can you post some pics of your 121/38?

I posted this text below to the wrong thread and I couldn't delete it. Anyone following this may be interested. Comments as always, please.

----------------------

Ha! I believe I know why Klittermann and Moog are using their RZM and SS number early and why only Eickhorn and they are!

Think about it guys! He exclaimed.

1936 is NOT a key date in SS dagger production, 1938 is.

Klittermann stop manufacturing in late 1938 early 1939 (nothing after 1938) And Jacobs 118 takes up/resumes production of these daggers.

It also accounts for why both Jacob's and Klittermann were issued RZM code M7/29.

Who has one of these daggers, either maker, and is it serial numbered (SS membership number or NSDAP party number), and is it traceable? If so to whom?

It is consistent in production year on year. I think this is a special order dagger for services rendered and was given to certain people perhaps not connected directly to the SS or maybe Waffen SS or some such thing. Whatever, it is a type of Ehrendolch.

Are there no vintage SS collectors here able to assist with this? I know absolutely nothing about SS daggers and need some help with this.

As none of the more experienced SS collectors (most of whom I thought I respected) have contributed in the slightest to this thread. I might just as well be ****ing in the wind.

Best of luck with your collecting, fellas.

Hey Neal,
Dont give up the ship.This is TOO pertinent to the SS Makers system questions.
I boobed(again)My Number is of course 121/38
"T" etch type A.
All nickel silver fittings/anodised scabbard/ebony grip,,"Toad" fat.All very nice.
Cant post but your in London,I,m in Bedford.Meet at a selected Fair? nearly anytime.
Sometimes overseas
Jacobs/Klitterman...
I understood from my days in Germany,they were on different floors in the same building.
Typical German tenement with small Companies throughout the floors.
Mine is Klitterman M7/29 all nickel silver/
painted scabbard.Numbered 58528.Been thru B.D.C
in Berlin.Never been able to trace number so
presumed not an Officer per se.Like your feeling.How else explain the Exclamation mark?
Must have been for a reason.
Do you know Harvey Riley?UK dagger dealer?
Keep up the good work
Cheers
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Come on Guys.
Chip in here.Lets have your feelings/opinions.
This is an important topic.
Seiler (yank in UK)

I for one am following this thread with interest. I just don't have anything germain to add to the discussion having never owned one of these. Perhaps someone else will be able to contribute.
Jim

Neal, Your thread has had me glued to the computer since it has started. I for one, have learned alot regarding the RZM system and I thank you for it.

Seiler,

my guess is you wont find an officer with an exclamation dagger. If you do, he'll have been promoted after receiving the dagger. Check career dates against dagger dates. I think Klittermann and Jacobs were issued to senior NCO's for some reason or other or co-opted honorary SS members.

Haan and Gr�frath are in the same district of Solingen (they border each other?), so it is possible that Klittermann and Jacobs shared the same building.

Without pointers and corrections from the more established collectors I'm running blind...

This is great info!!

Skyline,

E.P. & S. were a major component contributor to the 120 production run. Though I don't think they made the daggers entire. They are part of the bigger 120 puzzle. I believe had they made the 120 exclusively they would be marked SS 1211/34.

Neil,
You limey bast###.How on earth can you know all this information on these pointed things!!

Seriously tho' "well done" on your knowledge and the time to post,,,,,,,,,,,,,

1778 views on this thread alone so your analysis is not wasted Neal, like many my knowledge is not on a par but read with interest.
Regards

Neal... I've got one of the 121/34 daggers also.
If you want I'll take a few pics of it's parts for this post.
Robert

Many thanks for the pics Robert. Skyline may be interested as this and another set of 121/34 pics I have utilise the E.P. & S. scabbards with the Hammesfahr (?) blade and E.W crossguards.

I've started another thread in SS imaginatively called "SS dagger Manufacturers" people interested in this may be able to contribute in that.

Link:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/3040090624

Thanks everyone. I hope I'm not being too impertinent nosing around in SS.

It's the 120/34's with the Pack style scabbard fittings, not the 121/34's.

You're quite right, Skyline. Looking again, the screws are slightly lower than your non E.P. & S. example and the fixing rings are set high making them much nearer the screws (like Pack) but the bottom trim is not so thin. Is the narrow inverted U trim specific to Pack or is it just the screw placement?

Neal, I really like your work and can have an interest in your theory of the 120 and 121 markings, however, how do you put the early double oval Eickhorn marked old stock in play with the RZM marking and the later date of 36? It is obvious that Eickhorn was using factory ground Rohm's up prior to the RZM manufacture by the company and continued to sell them during the post 34 period. I have gotten mine directly from veterans and have had a few.
As we see from the problem to supply the M36 model, placing the manufacture and supply in the hands of one or two company suppliers just doesn't seem too likely to me.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Here are some codes that I have observed that are not listed in Wittmann's listing and are SS M33 Daggers that I have had codes for:
M7/5
M7/91 RZM 1221/39 SS
88/35 (wonder if this was a factory etch error)
M7/13 534/40/SS
SS 188/36 RZM
RZM 285/38 SS

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hi

There is one for sale at the militerycolectibles site here the link to comparehttp://www.militarycollectiblesinc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=da00763

The big turn off on this dagger for me is the spine. Too much of a line and not well polished. I would pass.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Apologies for the delay in my reply, Ron. We've had a spot of good weather here in London and I've been taking advantage in the garden.

Consequently, daggers have been pushed to the back of my mind. Let me have a few days to think about all the new (to me) SS dagger stuff I've crammed in over the past week and I'll get back to you. I hear what you're saying about Eickhorn post R�hm purge 34 to pre 36 production and I already have a few ideas about that.

I'm just fascinated that production went from 34 to 38 with hardly any use of SS admin codes; were 120 and 121 RZM codes? Rhetorical.

As for the authenticity of the dagger which started this thread? As I said, I don't know whether it is true or false. I simply keep an open mind as so much is unknown to us.

quote:

Ron Weinand
Here are some codes that I have observed that are not listed in Wittmann's listing and are SS M33 Daggers that I have had codes for:
M7/5
M7/91 RZM 1221/39 SS
88/35 (wonder if this was a factory etch error)
M7/13 534/40/SS
SS 188/36 RZM
RZM 285/38 SS

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron, I have drawn up a list of SS manufacturers (link below) which you may be interested in or like to comment on if there are errors/omissions).

88/35 sure is weird ... Pictures?

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/3040090624/p/2

Ron, one other thing crackling away in my head and associated with amalgamated production/distribution.

On 120/34 and 121/34 daggers there are no district numbers; I, II, III, have ceased...why?..distribution is handled by a new centralised admin system?

120/34's are most often found with a district stamp, usually "I". 121/34's are typically NOT found with a district stamp.

Ah, interesting. Just district "I" (if any) and none on 121's.

Do we know what/where district "I" was? 'scuse ignorance.

I just went back over Wittmann's book (Help! it's falling to bits) and none of his 120/121's were district marked either.

However, it seemed salient that we're talking 1934 (supposedly) and district codes were already vanishing rapidly.

None of the 120 and 121 pics I have here show any district codes. Thanks for the info, keep chucking it at me...you know far more than I.