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ehy guys there is an Sa full rohm on ebay and i need your help to see if its real here is a pic im just not sure if the logo should be that close to rohms name lol i put a 5000.00 max bid on it and i need to know if i need to retract it or not here is the id number 190135459375
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Well, he didn't give you much to look at! I think you have an 80% chance it's bad. I'm not sure but there one part of the inscription I have a problem with right now. I could be wrong. Pictures Ask for more pictures and post them and we will try.
Gailen David
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I think the hammer head not being solid black is a bad sign, and the knee has a line that goes all the way across, which is bad..there are some prior posts on these. John
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BAD BAD BAD known bad makers mark!
Silver Badge #0398 My Avatar = My dagger security system! 
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Johnny's right, absolutely bad ! 
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You guys have better eyes then I. Know I must be getting old as I can't even see the damn hammer. Somebody shot me.
Gailen
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Hello. I have what is, I think, a genuine full Rhom SS dagger. I requested additional photos from the seller of the SA dagger listed on e-bay and have had an opportunity to compare the two Rhom signatures. Unless my eyes deceive me, there are several easily spotted variations between the two. Specifically, the "O" & "H" in Rhom and the connection between these letters is different.
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I agree the maker mark is a known fake for the reasons given above already.
Here is my Pack full Rohm makermark for comparrison.
Ivan.
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Gailen, Are you of the opinion that all SA Pack logos with the open head hammer, of post war reproduction ?
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Jr: I am not sure I understand your question for sure. Do you mean the one with the spade?
Gailen
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quote: You guys have better eyes then I. Know I must be getting old as I can't even see the damn hammer. Somebody shot me.
This is the statement that I'm asking about Gailen.........
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Gailen,I think JR means a hammer head not coloured in black,IMHO,these are fakes,they go with the line all the way across the knee.
Ivan.
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quote: think the hammer head not being solid black is a bad sign, and the knee has a line that goes all the way across, which is bad..there are some prior posts on these. John
This is the statement by Dr. John Here is my question. Is an open hammer head logo the sign of a reproduction ??
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Can we agree that this Siegfried is holding something that looks to be a hammer or mall ?
Is the head of that tool open or filled in ?
Are there period logos by Pack that have the open head of the hammer ?
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ok if all open hammer head e packs are repro then why did a well known and respected dealer sell this one on his site. when i questioned him on it he said its real.
Regards Sean
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Open head hammer..............
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JR: Yes, your Honor I made that statement you just sent in quotes and I stand by it. "I can't see the hammer good in the damn picture." Show me a picture of the bad trademark with inscriptionI that can see.
Gailen
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Gailen, the picture that Seany shows is exactly the one that I've asked you about. Are there Pack logos that have an open head hammer, that are period made blades ?
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Just got the enlarged image and no I don't like it. I see a mistake in the inscription.
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It was I who sold that piece and I believe it is correct. The inscription tells the story.
Gailen
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Jr: There must be or I wouldn't have sold it.
Gailen
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Very good, and thank you Gailen. Do you like the Pack logo on the dagger that Seany posted. The one in which the Siegfried that is holding a hammer with an open head ?
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Very good Sir, as I too agree that there were Pack logos that the trademark was etched using a Siegfried holding an open head hammer. Thanks for your help on all. 
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If the one he sent me picture of that I sold is considered an open head hammer then the answer must be yes. Does that answer the question?All thisis my opinion of course.
Gailen
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Jr: I must believe they did an open hammer or I wouldn't have sold it. Either that or I'm a crook.
Gailen
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Yes, I sold it. You can tell by the red cloth in ther background which I have used for years.
Gailen
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The tradmark is still blurry. Look at the line that goes up before the "R" in Rohm. See how dosen't lean enough to the right as your looking at it?
Gailen
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I felt like rat trapped in a hole!
Gailen
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quote: I felt like rat trapped in a hole!
 Too much Dude!
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I think because of the Rex Reddick Rohm blades, many collectors automatically dismiss any Pack logo on any of their blades, that have the "open hammer" logo and also at times dismiss the large "&" symbol in their company name.
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gailen i belive you to be a very honest dealer more so than the very top one's in this game. its just when you said that all open hammers are bad i remembered that one. i too have a ground rohm with this mark,i know where it came from so i know its real and also fred stephens has seen it and ok'ed it.i belive that redick got hold of a real rohm with this style maker mark and its this one that he used to make all his copys.
heres mine
regards
sean
Regards Sean
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As you say Sean, the Rohm that Rex used to copy his by, no doubt was a legit blade with the open hammer logo; and the very reason that collectors are scared off right away when they see this on any SA dagger.
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OK, I am LOST!!!  I have read about EP&S Rohm daggers in the past and have ALWAYS heard that the easiest ways to spot a BAD EPack was to look for: 1) The "open" hammer head (AKA the "pointed" hammer). 2) The "&" which is as tall as the other letters in the name "EP&S". I understood that these were AGREED upon points about which there was no debate. There was a LONG thread about this very topic about a year ago, I have looked and looked and cannot find it, seems it was deleted. I just don't get it, what am I missing? How have we managed to change our minds about these pieces so quickly? I am NOT implying any "dirty dealings" I just want to understand what I missed.... Thanks for any input that could set me straight..... Johnny
Silver Badge #0398 My Avatar = My dagger security system!
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Dear Lost Johnny, You cannot tell a period EP&S blade using the reasoning that you stated in #1 nor #2 of your last post. As you can see there are 2 SA's posted that show the "open hammer" and these dagger have gone through the hands of those with quite a bit of experience. If you search the SS Forum, you will find several Pack M33 that were etched with the large "&" that are period pieces as well.
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EP&S as well as Eickhorn, no doubt bore the lion's share in manufacturing 125,000 SA Rohm daggers in the year 1934. We have already seen that in both SA and SS Rohm production, Eickhorn blades were produce with a different motto etch and a different squirrel logo. As suggested, this could very well could point to the fact that some of Eickhorn's production was source out to another firm that specialized in blades.
My thinking is that perhaps EP&S did the same and evidence of that might be detected in the open hammer Siegfried logo and perhaps when comparing the "Alles fur Deutschland" motto.
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At the end of it all, what really counts is the engraving on the blade but again, some have suggested that there were more than one template and that boths were different. All I can say is that the next few months ( or years ) should be quite exciting and that many theories may be found to be wrong. However, what's also really important, is to be able to back up any new theories with hard fact evidence. Words alone won't be enought. Too many people are suggesting things whithout any hard fact evidence, and this is where it hurts the hobby. If you listen to the same theory over and over again, after a few months ( or years ) the theory becomes legitimize eventhough it has never been proven. I must admit that JR is bringing some interesting arguments that should be taken into account. Who said that this hobby was easy ? 
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Thanks for the info. guys!!!
Learning somthing new all the time!
Johnny
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Well I also remember that long and detailed E.Pack thread with a lot of photos that Johnny was refering to. It's gone now..but it wasn't that old??? And I do recall that the consensus among the more experianced of our group was the the "Open Hammer" and the "big &" were sure signs of a "BAD" EPack. So I wonder what has happened to turn that consensus around since that thread?...wherever it went. And I can't help and wonder how many collecters had "dumped" these "Open Hammer" EPacks thinking they had a bad blade?? Only to find out now..."Hey they are GOOD"!  -wagner-
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Silver Badge #0398 My Avatar = My dagger security system!
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Isn’t it fascinating how information that stated years ago changing and seeing with different eyes today, tomorrow, next month etc?
This is cool and makes this hobby even more exciting to me.
Wagner is right, it’s sad if collectors have avoided good items because of the wrong information and unwritten rules stated long ago.
Maybe it makes sense that every serious collector always should doubt questionable information stated long ago if the proofs aren’t 100% today?
I found this thread very much educating as I always trying to be open minded and see things with different eyes no matter what it is.
This hobby really is a never ending lesson, Amen!
Sam,
"Honesty is the best policy"
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Yep, I remember that thread as well. Soon after reading it I bought a SA online and when it arrived I was horrified to see the suspect "open hammer" mark, immediately thinking I had just been conned with a fake. On closer inspection I was convinced it was period, it had the numbered "A" marked tang, lower scabbard screws, short throat and quarter sawn oak grip, all popular hallmarks of a Pack...
Red
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I had a Full Rohm as you describe Red. I believe that the raised "A" had a circle around it ??
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In addition to the open and closed, pointed or none pointed hammer, I also recall that the "lost" thread on the Pack logo went into some detail on other characteristics such as "Siegfried's" knee and the tie of his belt. A complication for me, with regards to Pack ground Rohms, is that the grinding tends to not only remove the inscription but also significant parts of the maker's mark. As you can see from the following, my Pack ground Rohm sometimes looks like the hammer is solid and sometimes like it isn't, and the "&" is almost totally obliterated, all because of the grinding. I can remember reading the thread and running for my Rohm, examining it closely and feeling somewhat undecided. I didn't however, "dump" my dagger as I'd been happy with it for a number of years and had paid very little for it when I first located it. Now, all of that is said, I hope that this is the beginning of a new thread on the Pack logo, as the loss of the old one and many, many other valuable informational threads, is far more than regrettable! But that has been discussed as well. ~ Ian
First picture appears to have the solid hammer head.
GDC Gold Badge #0204
"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
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Second picture, different angle, different light, different look (IMO).
GDC Gold Badge #0204
"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
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Unfortunately there isn't even enough of the signature to help.
GDC Gold Badge #0204
"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
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Here's the differences on the maker marks...
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Well guys, if the trademark on the left hand side is now considered to be an original, I'll eat it for brakefast.
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Oh Yea..that's the rare Epack "Variant" logo with the "Open Pointed Hammer" PLUS.. The forger is looking "straight",and has lines at his knee and ankle, plus the hanging "ribbon" between the legs. Dems gotta-be RARE! -wagner-
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Damn Pat, That breakfast looks mighty tasty..
Mike
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
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Ham,,sausage,,bacon!,,, That's a heart attack on a plate..
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I agree with Pat completely! But if I am reading this thread correctly we better get a big glass of Orange Juice with that breakfast to wash it down! Hope your hungry!
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The logo that Scott posted on the left is post war. What I am saying is: "Not all the open hammer Siegfried logos are absolutely post war; and not all the filled hammer logo are of the war time period. If you're using this as an absolute guideline you may be making a mistake. Each dagger no matter what logo is on it, needs to be evaluated on it's own.
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JR, Gailen & All ..... What a Great Discussion & another superbly informative Thread which has supreme relevance to us all.
(Was reading TW last nite & just happened to note that EP & S + Eickhorm made the 'bulk' of early SS Daggers - so these noted differences are germaine since we see so many EP & S).
This also points out the WHY that I personally choose to stay away from an EP & S Rohm - unless JR, Gailen & Houston ALL 3 have given a written COA OK on it!!. Dave ....dblmed
[Always looking for TeNo � Schuma � Technische Noodhulp Items...]
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This is an EP&S maker mark on a Reddick SS blade. I misplaced the original receipt the owner had when I purchased it from him. It was like $79.00. starky
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Appreciate that one Sir! JR
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So if the one on the left is from a $79.00 Reddick blade, and the one in the middle is from a reproduction then, is the one on the right from another Reddick blade? From an original? What, if anything, is there about the maker's mark on a reproduction that we can/should be looking for? ~ Ian
GDC Gold Badge #0204
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Can anybody tell a original from a fake ? at this stage of the Game ?
jim toncar
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quote: Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
Can anybody tell a original from a fake ? at this stage of the Game ?
jim toncar
Yes we can, the full Rohm inscription being the most important feature for authenticating an original dagger.
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Jim,
Perhaps with a hands-on inspection by someone such as Gailen David. Otherwise, in my oft-mentioned opinion, NO. Especially from digital images.
Dave
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Here is another example of a Pack logo that we can be sure is legit since it's on a plain jane firemans dress bayonet. No one to the best of my knowledge has ever faked these! As you can see; It's quite different from the ones pictured above.
Jim
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Jim, I have that same logo etch on a dress bayonet that I've owned exactly 44 years! My 1st 3rd Reich edged weapon that I still have today.
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Yep JR:
This one came from a guy who had it just about that long. I just posted it so everyone could see that Pack used a lot of different trademarks.
Jim
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You must remember that the Rohm inscription was part of the template with the E. Pack logo, So i would expect minor differences as compared to the bayonet logo.
Gailen David
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So how did we solve this? Real or fake.
Bob
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This Reddick created a ton of landmines to collecting German TR daggers. 
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OK so this is fake. Its back on ebay.
Bob
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Hi
I find this thread and i'm little confuse.
My partial ground Rohm is 100% original,bud what about open hammer and large & ?
Please help me ,so i can sleep better.
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Interesting ? so can we conclude after THREE Years we have a dagger (e Pack Rohm) that no one can tell if they have a original or a fake ??
jimtoncar
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quote: Originally posted by Pat: quote: Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
Can anybody tell a original from a fake ? at this stage of the Game ?
jim toncar
Yes we can, the full Rohm inscription being the most important feature for authenticating an original dagger.
Same answer as 2 years ago, Pack full Rohms are easy to spot if you know what to look for.
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Hi Pat,
Im from Missouri, show me........
jim
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To: Jim Toncar,
Yeah I can tell but I try not to make an opinon based on images. The exception is when it is one of the real obvious fakes that are out there. I think it's unfair to the dagger and the collector envolved. This not an authentication service.
Gailen David
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Amen, Gailen! Even the best photos don't always tell the story. Nothing compares to a "hands on" examination by someone truly knowledgeable. A few self-styled "experts" can hurt a seller and his item when they don't know what they are talking about.
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IMO there is nothing wrong with open hammer examples like Pat says its in the inscription
Regards Sean
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Joined: Mar 2002
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quote: Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
Hi Pat,
Im from Missouri, show me........
jim
Though all Rohm inscriptions share the same basic characteristics, all of them have unique features ( minute differences ) that will differentiate themselves from other makers. When I look at a full Pack Rohm, I don't even bother looking at the maker marked, I simply look at the inscription and verify if it has that "unique" Pack configuration. Now Sir, if you wish to know what are those unique characteristics, do some research, they are plenty of examples being listed on this forum. If you have a Rohm dagger, send me your pics on my private e.mail address and will tell you if it is correct or not. If wrong, I will tell you WHY !
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 123
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Joined: Apr 2002
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quote: Originally posted by Pat: quote: Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
Hi Pat,
Im from Missouri, show me........
jim
Though all Rohm inscriptions share the same basic characteristics, all of them have unique features ( minute differences ) that will differentiate themselves from other makers. When I look at a full Pack Rohm, I don't even bother looking at the maker marked, I simply look at the inscription and verify if it has that "unique" Pack configuration. Now Sir, if you wish to know what are those unique characteristics, do some research, they are plenty of examples being listed on this forum. If you have a Rohm dagger, send me your pics on my private e.mail address and will tell you if it is correct or not. If wrong, I will tell you WHY !
Hi Pat, I have a small interest in collecting Rohm daggers and have two of them , a full Herder and a Partially ground Herder, that said I always notice a lot conflict with E.Pack daggers as to who thinks what and why and always with no resolution ? So I was just trying to find out what to look for and every time I ask...... I certainly would not buy one without knowing what to look for , it would be like putting the cart before the horse ? when I ask on the Forum I get "this is not a authentication service " nice. Anyway I guess this is the reason Im only looking for Rohms made by Boker or Eickorns .But thanks Pat but no thanks . jimtoncar
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There were only a couple of firms that made the templates for Rohm daggers. Eickhorn made their templates in house. Most of the other firms bought there templates from one of the other firms that made them. That's why there is some minor variations in the inscriptions but not much since it was facsmile of Rohms signiature. The Rohm inscription and the trademark where all part of the template.
Gailen
Gailen
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Look, a lot of people come on this site with pictures fo Rohm daggers either to buy them or sell them. If they get a positive response to a Rohm they have pictures then they use that many times as selling point in there marketing. I don't think this forum was set up for that. I also don't think because someone on here likes a Rohm posted that it should be a recommendation to buy. That's why I said this is not an authentication service.
Gailen
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Tim, Pat's offer was genuine to help you. E-Pack Rohm dedications are unique compared to others as already mentioned. But this kind of details the guys "in-the-know" keep close to the vest nowadays due to the fakers who watch this very forum and improve their fakes. Then afterward a faker (some suspect) would post an improved version here and ask something like "Hey Guys, found this thing tell me is it right? And if Not, point out why not." As far as Gailen's comment...I'm sure it was not meant to offend. It is just "experience" talking. With so many posts of "Hey is this good?" Then coupled with poor photos they demand an answer. Then if you tell them your opinion...they will say..."Well I had this checked with Dagger God and Dagger Guru and they say your wrong!" Besides these really need to be as Gailen says inspected "in Hand" except for the obvious fakes. Anyway, if it was me and someone like Pat who knows what to look for in a period e-pack Rohm SA dedication offered to help me, I'd send him some real good photos. -JMO- Regards, -serge-
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Thanks Serge, you put it much better then I could have.
Gailen
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Here is pack's Röhm dagger logo for comparsion.
Luko.
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I have a question that I don't remember seeing answered before. Perhaps I'm wrong and it has been asked. But; Was the dagger makers logo applied at the same time as the Rohm dedication or were these independent operations?
Jim
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Thanks Gailen:
So logically since these Rohm daggers were only made for a short time the logo and dedication for a Pack for example should be identical in all instances? Or am I missing something here?
Jim
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That's a very good question Jim, one I have also pondered for years. It seems there are at least 4 different "accepted" Pack logos used on Rohms, and given these daggers were only produced for a few months, it's kinda strange to me...
Red
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Some of the minefield For me personally, only 1 & 2 I really trust, who knows... Red
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quote: Originally posted by Gailen David:
The same time.
Gailen, You sound fairly certain. I'm just curious, does TR period documentation exist that can substantiate this? All the best .. Mike Wipf
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Mike, Long time no hear from. Years ago I think Frederick stephens did the research. Been to long for me to remember all the facts. If your asking if I was there then the answer is no.
Gailen
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Thanks Gailen,
Good to hear from you. Like I said, just curious ..
Hopefully Frederick Stephens will chime in ..
All the best ..
Mike
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Thank you Serge for the kind words.
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