UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Flags, Field Gear, and Miscellaneous Militaria and Regalia Forum Pz III Ausf N discovered in Norway

This story also started some years ago, when I was asked by the local army museum to survey and search an area for possible tanks buried...

I found some concrete casemat's that drew my attention, and this is what I saw next to one...

Inside the casemate, a lafette for a Bofors 40mm L/60 remaining

And the view outside to some rusty remains fully covered by earth, stones and trees.

Inside the casemate, a tunnell in the side leading to...

The insides of a tank.

The only thing more or less complete, the turret and the gun!

The commanders hatch

And a tunnell in the floor, leading to 2 more tanks just like this!!

Post ww2 the norwegian army took advantage of the huge piles of german material and supplies, including PzIII's and StuGIII's.

In 1947 the army established what was then known as "Army Light Troops". These were intended for air-base defense, and their OOB was to include 3 PzIII and 1 StuGIII, and an additional spare of either type. The left-over german PzIII's were refurbished by norwegian army depots, and the majority of them were Ausf N.
How exact this was implemented, is hard to say. I've seen pics of PzIII's in these units with the 5cm KWK, and some units had only 1 spare StuG, no spare Pz. Some of the PzIII's even had the Schurzen while in army service.
4 of these light units were established at different air-bases in Norway, but very soon the Marshall aid plan started to come into effect. By appx 1952 the army took delivery of M-24 Chaffee's, which replaced the german tanks in service.

The area I searched was inside the air-force perimeter at Bardufoss, and Bardufoss was one of the 4 places the army's light troops were at.

Here's a pic of the unit at Bardufoss around 1948.

Almost 3 years after my first discovery of these tanks, the Army Museum of Norway and the Army finally got around to start excavating the first tank.

finally uncovered

And on the move to a new home

Great pics and info please keep us informed if possible

PAUL

In temporary storage since last October at our local museum. The turret has the number "2" in yellow. This coincides with the middle of the PzIII's in the picture from '48.

2

Turret is a "straight" Ausf N, with a single commanders hatch.

Then the winter came at full strength, and the other 2 tanks were left in site...

Until this thursday, just 3 days ago!!!
These are not yet fully uncovered at the time of the pics, but tomorrow I will get to see them again..
Busy weekend

more

..

The last of the three, and probably "Yellow 1"

Back in 1953 the army built a defensive fort at a hill very close to the airport of Bardufoss. The purpose was to have close range heavy weapons with the range to cover all entrances to the airfield and the airfield itself in case of enemy forces trying to take over the place.
So these PzIII's were half buried in defensive positions, using wooden covers for the turret as protection for weather only.
All of the interior parts of the Pz are gone - engine, transmission and almost everything in the hull. It is also cut out a square in the bottom as it was built a tunnell for hoisting ammo straight up into the tank.

At a later stage in the 60's these guns were rendered obsolete due to limited range and a new fortified position in concrete was built next to the PzIII's. Another opening was taken into the left rear side of the Pz's so the ammo-tunnell could be used to bring ammo to the new guns. In this process the whole of the PzIII's were totally buried and so these tanks were almost forgotten about. Until a few years ago.
The whole fort was disbanded sometime probably in the 70's or 80's so therefore it wasn't a problem getting the permits to release these PzIII's.

We have now established with a 100% certainty that "Our" panzers were indeed used by the norwegian army post ww2. (interviews with crews on these, and even one man who was part of the team digging them into the ground). We think that these were dug down around 1955.

Some pictures have turned up, showing the norwegian panzers while still in service at Bardufoss, and there is no question that atleast the first we dug up was the tactical number 2 in the unit, painted in yellow on the side of the turret. Later we hope to see that these others have number 1 & 3 on their turret-numbers. (I can confirm that we already see yellow paint, but until it is cleaned we cannot make out the numbers 100% for sure).

And as for the heritage of these PzIII's..

I believe very strongly that these PzIII's belonged to Pz Abt 211, that came from Finland to our area of Norway in the autumn of 1944.
On the OOB's they are listed as of May 45 with a 4 PzIII's with 7,5cm gun.

Here's a pic of one of these taken in Finland when the unit was outfitted with PzIII's.
I am inclined to think that this is indeed one of the ones we uncovered!!

End of story so far....

BATTLEFIELD ARCHEOLOGY can't get enough of this stuff thanks for posting and making my day

PAUL

Great Post Trigger!! Keep us informed.

So what now many ask..

Actually, there has for a long time been negotiations between our museum and the central Army Museum about what will happen with these 3 tanks.
Technically these tanks are still the property of the Army, and therefore the central Army Museum will negotiate any further deals.

It was decided to not make any hard decisions until all 3 were gathered at our museum, in order to best have an overview of the conditions of these...

There has been mentioned a possible deal with a german museum, where they will restore 2 and return to Norway (1 definately to us here), and keep 1 for the work.
But nothing so far is signed on paper.

This matter is now up to the guys in suits

Cheers,

This is great. Please keep us informed on the details of these tanks when you know them. it would be great if they were restored to running condition.

Great post trigger!
Yes, this is what it's all about. Talk about Ground Dug!

-wagner-

This is a great post trigger, and fantastic pics - I love this stuff, and look forward to seeing more of the excavation!

Regards

Russell

They are now in storage at our museum, and I've had a chance to study them in more detail...

Basically the 3 PzIII's are all different

I will refer to them by their tactical markings in the Norw. Army:
Yellow 1:
It has a late hull (maybe the only "true" Ausf N )without evacuation hatches in the side of the hull, and with the simplified towing attachments. However, it has the earlier pressed steel idler wheels... Also this has the split commanders hatch.

Yellow 2:
Early hull, but with spoked idler wheels, this is probably Ausf E/F with bolted on front-armour, early style towing-hooks in the hull and specially designed armor in front of driver & gunner/radio-man. Late style Ausf N turret, with single commanders hatch.

Yellow 3:
Probably an Ausf J hull, simplified towing attachments and with evac.hatches, spoked idler-wheels and same turret as Yellow 1

The rear decks were removed, as well as belts etc while removing all that %&/%#" concrete...

Yellow 1 & 3 has this kind of commanders hatch on the early Ausf N turret, 2 equally split parts hinged opposite ways.

As opposed to the single hatch on yellow 2.

Yellow 1 hull without evacuation hatches is furthest from camera.

Evacuation hatches on each side of the hull of Yellow 3 (and 2)

Idler wheels on Yellow 1 are of the early pressed steel type.

while as yellow 2 & 3 have the late tubular spoked wheel.

Front part of Yellow 1 (3 is the same also)

And the add-on armor for it

Ausf J and later had these simplified towing attachments, like on Yellow 1 & 3.

And I will round off this for now with a picture of Yellow 2 as it came out of the ground last october :-)

I will try to keep this thread updated whenever there is something worthwhile reporting :-)

sweet . Trigger are there still stocks of spares in the army warehouses ie road wheels idlers engines etc

PAUL

incredible stuff, and great pictures.
cheers

Here comes the most incredible:

Both these PzIII's had the Chassis number plates intact inside.
74352, and 76219.
Tank with a visible number 1 on turret is an Ausf M. The other Ausf L. Both vehicle serial-numbers have been checked by Henry Blanck, and found to have been participating at the battle of Kursk July 43.
gep.kfz. bestandsmeldung dated 30.june 1943 of PzGrenDiv "GD" confirms these s/n with Grossdeutschland.

The "1" on turret is post-war norwegian markings. This tank was delivered to PzGrenDiv Grossdeutschland.

The other, Ausf L, was delivered to SS-division "Das Reich", who lost it in the soviet offensive at Kharkov in the winter of '43 and later it was recovered during the spring-offensive at Kharkov, repaired and taken in use also by PzGrenDiv GD during battle of Kursk.



Best regards,

Hi

I can only confirm Tor Helge`s information.

Super pictures Tor Helge

What's more, is that these 2 also appear on the PzGrenDiv Grossdeutschland list of chassis-numbers dated 31.august 43. One as operational, the other on repair at this date!!

Looking inside, the 7,5 cm guns are also from the same manufacturer, just a few numbers apart in their serial-numbers.
To me this indicates that these 2 have spent almost their entire "lives" together.
Kharkov, Kursk, modified to Ausf N most likely at the same plant, sent off to a new unit together (Norway/Finland), post war in use together in the same platoon, dug down together, recovered together, and finally now - Side by side together at our museum!!!!

Amazing history indeed!!

Cheers,

Fantastic work Guys!!!

Keep it up..This is LIVING History! Dave/dblmed

This is an absolutely unique thread and an absolutely amazing story. It would be hard to believe unless one doesn´t see the pictures. I bow in utmost respect before your accomplishments. Keep on going!

Just a quick update

The central army museum archive actually held the norwegian vehicle "title" (so to speak) for these, and I got copies of them
These papers include details like how many gallons of anti-freeze, engine changes, engine serial numbers and also service-history (mechanical).
But more important, they duly noted at the end of service that they were "dug down", and only 3 of the former norwegian PzIII's titles were annotated as such, so now we know the chassis number of the former unknown PzIII.

Cheers,

Some of the paperwork we have managed to find.

- Grossdeutschland PzRgt report on serviceable vehicles 30.june 1943 (just days before the battle of Kursk)

Same report, but from after the battle of Kursk 31.august 1943.
These are the operational vehicles... Quite a few less than just a couple of months earlier

Norwegian army "title". Detailed description of gun serial number, breech-number, engine numbers etc etc.

Trigger,

This has been a very intriguing read to write the very least.

A great deal of thanks to you for not only the images you have shared but also for taking the time to reveal all, step by step.

Please give my warmest regards to all those that have assisted you in this historical venture. A venture brought back to life.

It makes you wonder how many more are out there. All those that hit the bogs, no doubt they remain perfectly preserved being this their fete.

Kind regards,

Davey

PS - Stay safe and keep up the excellent work.

That is a wonderful thread, Trigger, and the final revelation of the early history of these Pzs is fabulous. Great research, and thanks for sharing it!

Frederick J. Stephens

Thank you for your kind replies

There are no news from the central army museum, they have reorganized a bit and some key-personnell who were involved with this are no longer working there.
Also the local museum is about to change management, so for now nothing much is happening with the tanks.

We have had no luck so far, neither from NARA or the Freiburg Archives in finding the reports detailing the chassis numbers of Pz.Abt.211 in the autumn of 1944.
So the route from Kharkov to Norway is still a bit uncertain.

Best regards,