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#215687 01/07/2007 04:43 AM
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I am relatively new to the forum and during the past week have spent many hours devouring the incredible information in the various forums. Of special interest were the discussions on grinding and cross graining in earlier posts in this forum.
I have been collecting TR daggers for many years, since they tie into my passion for knives as a custom knife maker. One of the custom knife shows I participate in every year is held at the Klingenmuseum in Solingen. When the show was first started by the museum, many of the locals attended. Since I do all my work completely by hand, I attracted the attention of an older gentleman who was a apprentice knife grinder / polisher near the end of the war. Since I collect TR daggers, I was very interested. He explained the use of the very large & wide grinding wheels to achieve the flat grind on the blades.
Of speial was interest polshing process. He explained that the face of the relatively large polishing wheel was not flat, but tapered back at a 45 degree angle to provide a almost flat and wide surface. The face of the wheel was covered with thick walrus leater. This explains the parallel polishing lines along the entire length of the blade. He also explained that the crossgraining was not something that the polishers aimed for, but was a result of contamination from the grinding process reaching the polishing wheels, unavoidable under the factory conditions. It is interesting that the feature we admire in TR blades was an annoyance to the polishers. When we finished our conversation he invided me to his home to show me some of the polishing wheel he had rescued after the war as well as some of the blades he had ground and polished during his apprenticeship. Unfortunatly I was not able to take him up on the offer. Sadly I have not seen him at any of the later shows, I would love to get some photographs of his treasures. This is one of my first posts, hope the subject is not inappropriate.
Wolfgang

#215688 01/07/2007 05:29 AM
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Wow! Fascinating. Sad you couldn't meet with the gentleman.

#215689 01/07/2007 08:55 AM
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Hello Wolfgang :

Welcome to the forum.
That is an interesting story.
Thank you for sharing it with us.


Best Regards,
Robert
#215690 01/07/2007 09:42 AM
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Welcome to the forum Wolfgang! Geoff. Smile

#215691 01/07/2007 02:06 PM
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Very interesting post to kick-off with Wolfgang Wink

This is an interesting topic as many people debate that the crossgraining was an intentional finish to the blade, others contend that its an unwanted remnant of the grind as you've explained... Pity you lost touch with the guy, these first-hand accounts are most valuable these days.

Thanks for the story, Red

#215692 01/10/2007 12:39 AM
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The final blade finish probably depended on the size of the maker, the size of the dagger order and the individual craftsman. I have a couple of near mint SA's from smaller makers with original mirror polished blades. Only very fine crossgraining appears and you have to look for it. These blades are beautiful and are quite the contrast to the typical heavily crossgrained piece.

#215693 01/11/2007 07:29 AM
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OK, I am VERY interested in this discussion and hove NO reason to doubt anything that has been said previosly except for 1 thing...
Here are a few pics of a Wusthof carving knive (made in 2006) that I have as a kitchen knife. All of the knives are the same.
Clear, significant crossgrainging (even if the pics are not very clear).
So my question is; if crossgrain was a "mistake" why are they STILL struggeling with this problem?????

k1.jpg (47.54 KB, 611 downloads)

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#215694 01/11/2007 07:31 AM
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SWEET crisp 100% crossgrain, NOTHING like 2006 manufacturing quality!!! Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

k2.jpg (40.62 KB, 606 downloads)

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#215695 01/11/2007 07:31 AM
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#3

k3.jpg (55.58 KB, 589 downloads)

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#215696 01/11/2007 07:57 AM
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Not showing up here. Confused

#215697 01/11/2007 12:21 PM
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They heard that we love crossgraining and decided to try to corner this share of the market. Big Grin


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#215698 01/11/2007 02:15 PM
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Crossgraining was not a "mistake". It was on the finished product for most makers. Apparently however, some firms and/or individuals took the process a step further by polishing the blade. We must keep in mind that these are hand made pieces. Until the war decimated their ranks many of these blades were made by expert craftsmen in small cottage firms. The blade-making art was passed down through generations in Solingen.

#215699 01/12/2007 12:05 AM
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cross graining is the result of imcomplete polishing!!! simple as that..

Sorry,


Rod

#215700 01/12/2007 12:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rod:
cross graining is the result of incomplete polishing!!! simple as that.. These were not in their day highly finished or expensive items!!


Sorry,


Rod

#215701 01/12/2007 12:28 AM
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OK maybe, but my kitchen knives by Wusthof are VERY expensive (as kitchen knives go) and are known as premium cutlery (many say the best in the world manufactured today), I have a hard time believing that they are incompletely polished and that this is a mark of poor quality...
These ARE highly finifhed and expensive items!


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#215702 01/12/2007 02:44 PM
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Well I decided to go directly to the horses mouth. Since modern german kitchen knives have crossgrain, they should be able to tell us why.
So, I called Wusthof's American headquarters this AM and asked about crossgraining, their response: "What is crossgraining?" After a short description of what I was talking about she said "Oh! ya I have seen that but I have no idea about it! This is not a "standard question!" Roll Eyes
So through her I got the e-mail addresses for the people who "should know" in germany and have sent them e-mails with several questions. If they take the time to read and answer, it should be very interesting...
I also sent e-mails to Henkels.
I will post there responses here, if and when I recieve them.


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#215703 01/12/2007 05:01 PM
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I got am e-mail from Henkels, their rep. says that he does not know the answer to my questions buy WILL research it, find out and get back with me... Smile


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#215704 01/12/2007 06:10 PM
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Interesting..will be neat to hear their response. Of course, I'm sure that you didn't mention the 3rd Reich connection... Big Grin


Tom
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#215705 01/12/2007 06:50 PM
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Hmmmm... I think I forgot to mention that... Big Grin


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#215706 01/13/2007 12:04 AM
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A couple of observations: “Crossgraining” is what in various industries would be known as a “satin” or “brush” type finish. It is cheaper and faster to do than a high polish finish. My sense of it is that the cost controls imposed by the RZM would have been sufficient cause just by itself to force makers to discontinue the high polish type finishes. And while it varied by maker, unlike the daggers which went to crossgraining relatively early, many combat bayonets and other items for the Wehrmacht continued to have high polish finish into early 1942 (some Walther P-38 pistols are I think an excellent example having a distinctive “brush finish” transition phase). And just about the time the manufacture of dress blades was discontinued as a hindrance to the war effort. We see the quality of finish applied to combat arms rapidly degrade to a more utilitarian mode in an effort to speed up production.

PS: Well done “satin” or “brush” finishes are not only faster and cheaper to apply than a good quality high polish finish, they have other advantages. They also tend to hide or minimize minor imperfections which reduces the rejection/rework rate for finished items. Which is why that type of finish (IMO) is commonly seen with many items including modern day cutlery. FP

#215707 01/13/2007 01:47 AM
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Thanks for your input FP. As always a clear educated and well though out response.
Thanks,
Johnny


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#215708 01/13/2007 05:21 PM
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I have been making high grade custom knives for many years. See attached photo of pocket knives with contrasting satin/polished finishes. Most collectors request a satin finish on the blade, mainly becouse a perfect satin finish is much more difficult to achieve than a polished (buffed) finish. To get the perfect satin finish the blade has to be polished to the point where only a light buffing would be required. The satin finish must be applied with all the lines running in one direction. The problem with satin finishes is that even a very light mark which would hardly show on a highly polished blade will stick out like a sore thumb on the satin finish.
I agree that most of the cross graining on knives produced today are a result of an abbreviated polishing process. A higher grade polish would add to the cost and would be of little benefit to a using knife. It is interesting to note that most of the larger TR dagger manufacturers also produced pocket knives, some models with with flawless highly polished blades.
Wolfgang

#215709 01/13/2007 05:34 PM
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Sorry, for some reason I can not post the pic.

#215710 01/13/2007 05:53 PM
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I get this message: There was an FTP (file transfer) error. The detail is 'Upload to '/testdir/test.txt' failed. Detail: '552 Transfer aborted. Disk quota exceeded
''.
What am I doing wrong?

#215711 01/13/2007 06:47 PM
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Wolf- Your not doing anything wrong, it is a sote problem, there is a discussion about it in the community center...


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#215712 01/13/2007 09:58 PM
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Picture 1

Lorelei__Rodney_Gothic_open_fixed7.jpg (64.34 KB, 374 downloads)
#215713 01/13/2007 10:00 PM
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Blade detail, unfortunately the satin finish lines do not show up well, but the contrast to the polished areas is seen.

Lorelei__Rodney_Blade_open_fixed7.jpg (38.88 KB, 364 downloads)
#215714 01/13/2007 11:49 PM
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Wolfgang, Most respectfully, I think that I understand what you are saying, and would agree that unlike a custom knife maker - in a high volume production environment that most likely a large scale maker would use as many shortcuts as possible to get the job done. Where I might have a different point of view regarding satin/brush finishes in general is regarding their necessarily being more difficult to achieve than a high polish - in a large scale production environment.

Looking not to custom made knives. But to firearms IMO gives perhaps a better picture of what was required in achieving a good polish of either type for large scale operations. Meaning that a well done high polish firearm finish took more time and effort than a comparable well done satin finish - and once a part was final polished (either way) that was it. And that in the context of the time of the Third Reich there was in fact a migration away from high polish finishes - depending on the item, the maker, and the time period. And that a further analysis of period German sidearm and firearm finishing standards shows what happened and approximately when the changes took place.

PS: Very nice work on the knives, although to be honest it’s hard to see in the images a satin/brushed effect - possibly because of the lighting(?). FP

#215715 01/16/2007 04:15 AM
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Can anyone elaborate on the difference between "satin "finishes?Brushing V.S.Bead blasting??Geoff.

#215716 01/16/2007 04:14 PM
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Geoff, Originally brush finishes referred to items that were polished using wire brushes leaving a matt finish that consisted of parallel lines. A satin finish could be applied the same way with a finer gauge wire brush, or it could be applied using an abrasive on a wheel. The distinction nowadays seems to be that a brush finish is coarser, and a satin finish is finer with the parallel lines closer.

Sand blasting uses a coarse or fine grit sand to impart a matt finish without lines. Bead blasting uses small glass beads that impart a finer smoother finish than the irregular sharp cornered grains of sand. Some Solingen makers used sand bIasting later in the war, while others used acid baths (pickling) as a preparatory step, but none of them used bead blasting (it hadn’t been invented yet). I hope this helps. FP

#215717 01/19/2008 02:56 PM
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Johnny....did you ever hear from the Henkels rep?


Bob
#215718 01/19/2008 04:29 PM
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Johnny,

If you do get in touch with the rep again, ask if they'll still acid etch the blade Smile


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#215719 01/19/2008 06:35 PM
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Sorry guys,
He NEVER got back with me.....
PS: My kitchen knives (Wusthof & Henckels)appear to be laser etched, not acid.


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#215720 01/21/2008 11:10 PM
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1.As for the III Reich period: What can be better, than explanation from the guy who's "been there, done that" ? (I'm reffering to the old guy from Solingen, real dagger maker, not "hypothesis creator")
2.As for the modern times: crossgraining on expensive high end blades is for sure desired effect. I visited several knife making forums (yeah, those guys are real blade freaks, no offence Wolfgang Wink) and so called "satin finish"- also a form of crossgraining - seems to be a very desirable finishing touch.
I checked also some cheap kitchen knives that I have and they too have some crossgraining visible. More: that crossgraining looks more like III Reich era crossgraining, than like modern high end one.
Just my 2 cents. Cool


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