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#213828 05/07/2005 07:07 PM
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Gentlemen,

I thought I would open a thread on German Police Sword Variations. Most of us are familiar with the standardized Polizei-F�hrer-Degen and Polizei-Unterf�hrer-Degen that was worn by policemen after police uniforms were standardized after 1936. I am hoping that others will post variations of this style of Polizei Degen.

Here is an example of the standard Polizei-Unterf�hrerdegen by Weyersberg. It has the typical stainless steel blade found on these police swords and has an aluminum 1936 Polizei eagle inset into the black wooden grip. The scabbard has only one nickeled top fitting and the drag is plain painted steel as is correct for these NCO swords. The knot is the standardized Polizei Offizer Portepee that was worn by both Pol-Offiziere and Pol-Unteroffiziere mit Portepee.

George

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The Deutsche Polizei wore other styles of long swords in addition to the standardized NS Zeit Polizei Degen shown above. I will post some other long police swords as long as you guys post examples of the standard Polizei Degen. Feel free to post any other examples of long police swords on this thread.

Here is a Prussian Schutzmannss�bel as was worn in Imperial times. This S�bel was manufactured by WKC and was worn by enlisted policemen as late as the time of the Weimar Republic. It was still shown in catalogs as late as 1924 and 1927. The fittings of this sword are gold colored and the scabbard is black leather.

George

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Notice the slab sided blade with the single knight helm logo of WKC on the ricasso. The hilt is cast in one piece with the grip being yellow metal as well as the backstrap and guard. These swords will be found in both white metal and yellow metal. This D guard metal hilt configuration is a distinctive police style of sword for patrolmen and NCOs (Mannschaftss�bels).

George

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George,
I like!! Some very nice swords. Smile If memory serves me correctly the Prussian Schutzmannss�bel was slightly different later day version of the Prussian Model O/St 1818 infantry saber - which itself was taken from the French Model AN IX light infantry short sabers taken as spoils following the Napoleonic Wars.
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George,

Very, very nice!

I presently have my eye on the shortest Polizei officers sword that I've ever seen. The blade length is only 25 inches and it's not a Kindersabel. If I get it I'll post some snaps.

Best regards!

Bill

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FP,

Thank you for the response. You are correct about this style of sword coming from the earlier French light infantry short swords. As the Germans took them out of service with the Prussian Infantry, they came to be utiliized by the Polizei and Gendarmerie. Typically, the gold colored ones were used by rural police while the white colored ones were in service with the municipal police agencies.

Bill,

I would love to see your shorty Polizeidegen. There were some short guys that wore these little swords but they are few and far between.

Also, I made an error on the Prussian Schutzmannss�bel I posted above. This particular one is an Imperial police sword with the king & knight head logo rather than one with a single knight head logo. Here is a page from the Imperial Weyersberg Kirschbaum und Company catalog showing this exact police sword.

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Here is another police sword in white metal that was worn in a frog instead of on slings. The sword is identical in configuration, size, and length to the gold one shown above and the scabbard is also black leather. This particular sword was manufactured by Eickhorn and has the Eickhorn back to back squirrels logo on the ricasso.

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View of the hilt of the Eickhorn sword in white metal. Notice the elongated frog stud on the scabbard.

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Closeup view of the hilt showing the all metal construction, including the grip. These swords had sturdy D shaped guards that could be utilized as an impact weapon by the policeman. The broad blade could either cut or the side of the blade could be used as an impact weapon for riot control.

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Here is an Imperial WKuC catalog illustration showing this particular police sword that was worn in a frog.

George

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Bill & George:
It has been my experience that some Austrian Polizei swords are the shortest of all.
Some being cut-down regular swords and their corresponding scabs.
I've also seen a number of South American Police blades that are shorter than others.
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Jack,

You are correct, of course, about the Austrian Polizei swords. Austrian Police NCOs wore short swords and officers wore long swords as a general rule.

The Austrian Police wore short swords from frogs that had cut down blades. Actually, the blades were cut down from existing stocks but they were plated after being cut down and do not look like the cut down Prussian Polizei bayonets that were not re-plated. I have posted this short sword before under another thread but here is a photo of an Austrian Polizei short sword as you describe. Again, these continued to be worn after the annexation of Austria until the police could be supplied with regular German police uniforms and swords.

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Here is an example of the longer Austrian Polizei Officer sword. They could also wear the standard long basket hilt officer sword.

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Closeup of the hilt. The short NCO sword has a leather grip while the longer Officer sword has a sharkskin grip. Both hilts are nickeled steel as are the scabbards. The Austrian Republic Polizei Portepee has the national colors of red/white/red and has no slide on the strap. The Quaste is closed on the NCO sword knot while it has open tassels on the Officer sword knot.

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Photographs of the Austrian Police swords in wear. This comes from a 1933 copy of "Bergland" with a special section on the Austrian Police. The NCO on the left wears the short sword while the Officer on the right wears the longer sword of the basket hilt style. Notice the Portepee with closed Quaste worn by the NCO and the Portepee with the open Quaste worn by the Officer. Also notice the Prussian Iron Cross II worn by the Officer in his buttonhole. Both of these fellows seem to be qualified airmen of some sort as they seem to have air badges on their right pockets if I am not mistaken.

George

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George:
Great shots of the Austrian Polizei!
Your blades are definitely nuch better than mine.
I've sadly, never gotten into the portapee end of adding them to my blades...most of those I've purchased seem to have been added by the dealer...and usually they are portapees of different countries!
"Roll with the punch" I always say.
Thanks for the pictures.
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I GOT THIS A FEW YEARS BACK. IT COST ME DEARLY...

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ANOTHER OF MY SWORDS...

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NOT QUITE A SWORD BUT STILL NICE...

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Gunnett,

Two very nice Police Officer swords (and bayonet) that you show. What are the makers on your two swords? The variation with the SS runes in the pommel has always interested me.


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The SS\Police sword was marked top to bottom:
ALCOSO
A SCALE DESIGN C
S
SOLINGEN

The other police sword is marked top to bottom:
ROBERT KLAAS
+ TWO STANDING BIRD DESIGN +
SOLINGEN.

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Gunnett,

Thanks for the maker information on your excellent swords. I wonder if anyone else has an example of the Polizei Degen with the SS runes on the pommel nut that differs from your Alcoso example?

I have never been able to figure out a couple of things about the Polizei-F�hrer-Degen:

First, is why are some of the officer grip eagles copper while some are silver color? Obviously, some of the copper eagles seem to never have had silver plating so the loss of silver plate does not seem to answer the question entirely.

Second, were the SS runes in the pommel only limited to one maker or was it an available extra part option that could be screwed onto any Degen?

Thirdly, why would a police officer buy a separate pommel (or a second sword for that matter) if he held dual membership in the SS? Police officers could simply wear the SS Degen and/or the SS Portepee to signify SS membership.

Here is a period uniform plate done by Kn�tel that shows the SS Degen in wear by the police. The Verwaltungspolizei Officer on the right is wearing the sword with the SS runes in the grip (although it is not obvious on the scan) along with the SS Offizier Portepee.

George

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Hi George,

Here is a Polizei-F�hrer-Degen with SS pommel made by WKC.

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Here are two of mine. Paul Weyersberg on top and WKC on bottom. I believe that most Police did not receive the honor degen with runes on the grip.

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The pommels.

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WKC NCO. George, did the frog/hanger come on your NCO degen? I don't remember seeing one like that. Can we please have a better photo of it. Thanks, Dale

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SS NCO in my collection (not maker marked). SS "Culture mark" on the guard.

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Pommel Nut:

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So many neat Police swords!

Denny,

Thanks for showing your WKC. I see your SS rune pommel is different than that of the Alcoso on Gunnet's. Good information that tells us there was not simply one generic SS rune pommel. I notice your WKC has a silver grip eagle just as does Gunnet's Alcoso while his Klaas (without a SS rune pommel) has a copper eagle.

Dale,

Your WKC and your Weyersburg both have copper grip eagles. This is my problem/question with these silver or copper grip eagles...no consistency that I can see. Can you tell if your pommels are different from each other and is your WKC pommel different than Denny's WKC pommel with runes? Dale, the verticle hanger did not come with my Pol NCO sword. The Pol NCO Degen would normally have the long plain black strap with a nickel regain hook and chain or the short teardrop sword hanger in black (for Schutzpolizei) or brown (for Gendarmerie). It MIGHT have a white hanger for parade, but that is not certain. I have seen few white parade sword hangers and never one that was dated during the NS Zeit.

Here are a couple of the normally accepted SS Officer Degen hangers with silver wire bullion facing. I suppose they might have also been worn on police Officer swords of this type (with runic pommels) as well. The NCO Pol Degen strap is similar, except that it has no bullion facing.

George

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Well, George, I don't know if you were refering to a dated white parade sword hanger in strap form or tear-drop. Here is a 1937 dated white strap hanger. No police acceptance or SS. I had it in my hands some years ago but was unable to purchase it. The collection was later sold at one of the Max Auctions in Pittsburgh. I would think this would have been used for those senior NCOs authorized to wear their Unter-offizier Degen. For parade, the officers would have worn the tear drop hanger, silver tress on green for officers and gold tress on green for generals and officials of general rank.

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Here is a shot of the manufacturer mark and date on the reverse.

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Here are a couple of police long swords (sabers) that were used by the German mounted police. The heavier saber at the top is an Imperial issue saber adopted by the Prussian Schutzpolizei in the Weimar era for use by its mounted police. Below it is an Eickhorn Model 189, listed in an Eickhorn catalog as a Extrawaffe for Mounted Police NCOs.

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The heavy police saber is marked on one side with the 1920 stamp and on the other with the property marking of the Schutzpolizei Breslau.
The Extrawaffe is unmarked except for the Eickhorn logo. The large green striped police sword knot would be proper with these sabers.
Use of the saber by police mounted units was discontinued in 1940/41.

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hi all,
a long time since i`ve been on here but here goes,my weyersberg police with a `variation`......triple etched

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another pic

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another

police_obverse_centre_forum.JPG (24.18 KB, 306 downloads)
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reverse

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reverse again

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triple,bit hard to photo

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George,
Here are some more pictures of the WKC Polizei-F�hrer-Degen with SS pommel. Like you, I would love to have a deeper understanding of copper vs. silvered Polizei grip eagle. It appears there is no rhyme nor reason to it. Hope these pics help.

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makers mark

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Closeup of the pommel. Sorry these pictures are so big.

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Obverse blade marking (WKC helmet on reverse)

Anthony,
"Beautiful and rare etched blade"!

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hi Denny,
thanks for the comments...i`ve always been pleased with it.i know these are rare but this sword has a `twin` somewhere out there in collectors land.it was shown in Johnsons vol 1.
after much research ive found that my own and the other were presented to two police officers on the same day ,both from the town of Diepholz.both officers had completed 40 years service at the same time.
my task in life....to locate the other and pair them up....some chance !!.

always wanted one with an SS pommel but never found one,yours looks nice.
my grip eagle is copper,which has traces of silver plating to it.

antony

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More great police swords!

Joe,

That's what I am talkin' about! Exactly right, and now thanks to your photograph I can say that I have seen a white strap hanger that was dated during the NS Zeit. Here is a photo of the plain black strap hanger that is also correct for the Polizeiunteroffizier-Degen. Of course this same black hanger was also worn on Heer enlisted swords so it is not exclusively a Pol or SS sword hanger like the white ones.

Excellent examples of the mounted sabre for the police as well. The heavy sabre was usually carried attached to the saddle, as you are well aware.

George

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Anthony,

Thank you for posting your Weyersburg police officer sword. What is intersting to me is that it has a plated blade. The blade is exactly what I would expect to see on a Weyersburg etched blade on all three sides. A highly detailed custom etching on the obverse with a typical line border around the dedication. A typical Weyersburg laural leaf etch on the spine of the blade. And finally, a typically busy and well executed rococo Weyersburg style etch on the reverse of the blade. Smile

It is also interesting to know that your sword still has traces of the silver plate on the copper grip eagle. Some do and some don't and it keeps eluding me as to why that is. Good luck on your search for the other one to make up a pair. That could happen... Roll Eyes

George


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Denny,

Thanks for the additional pictures. It certainly does appear that there is more than one maker of these runic pommel nuts. The SS runes stamped on the blade are also an oddity. Why they did this, instead of using the boxed runes usually stamped on the throatpiece and guard, is still unknown to me. I know theories have been discussed ad nausiem but it seems to be a fact that they did use both runic stamps on police swords. No doubt WKC had a reason, but 'tis a mystery to me.

George


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You know George, I don't think the saber was usually carried on the saddle as we commonly believe. At least not in the case of the mounted Prussian Schutzpolizei, or the Landjagerei for that matter. At least not from my reading of the Prussian clothing regulations and some pictorial evidence. I have searched for clear shots of mounted police wearing sabers in the few Weimar era books I have. The clearest shot is of a detachment preparing to work near the Reichstag. These men are wearing overcoats and their sabers are hanging from underneath. Other shots in "Polizei greift ein" show the saber on mounted police close under the overcoat.

The clothing regulations indicate that the saber is worn by the mounted police attached to the belt. There were two methods of attachment: the 41cm strap with hook and chain or the pear shaped hanger. The saber pictured in the clothing manual looks more like the Eickhorn Model 189, than the heavy saber shown in the later III Reich weapons manuals. The sword hanger is mentioned in the III Reich manuals only in connection with the description of saddles. Have you found anything more certain?

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Joe,

You may very well be correct. I found your photo in "Polizei greift ein" and the others seem to show both methods of carrying the sword. Since most of these troopers are wearing greatcoats it is difficult to tell as you say. The issue sabres were so darn heavy, I would want to get it on my saddle and off my hip when I was mounted. I just can't tell which swords they are carrying.

Here is a shot of the reverse of the heavy sabre that you show. The same "1920" marking on the obverse guard as yours and police markings to the Schutzpolizei Liegnitz on the reverse.

George

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Great thread! There seems to be some slight difference in the pommel runes. I believe they were hand cut so this would account for that.
I also wonder about the WKC runic mark. Then there is the RATH mark in the diamond.

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Dale:
I too noticed the size difference in the pommel runes even though I managed to post a SS NCO sword in a police sword thread. Smile Mine look smaller however It's partially the picture.However I have no police variants.
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Jim,

You bring up a very good point about the SS NCO sword pommels, even if by accident. I have never seen an SS runic pommel on a Police NCO sword. Why would the rune pommels not be found on Pol NCO swords in the same manner as they are found on Pol Off swords? The SS NCO pommel is a standard part that was readily available and could simply be screwed onto the tang of a Police NCO sword as easily as it could an SS NCO sword. Has anybody seen a Polizei NCO Degen with a rune pommel?

Police NCOs could hold dual membership in the SS in exactly the same manner as Police Officers. They wore SS runes on their tunics in the same manner as officers. If the SS runes in the pommel of the Police Officer sword indicates dual membership, why do we not find runic pommels on Police NCO swords?

George

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George:
I for one am at a loss to explain this. You would think at the very least fakers would have done so to enhance the value of police NCO swords. Perhaps someone else well versed in the police will have an idea.
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Joe:
A great photo of the Polizei Mounted horses!
Might you have a pict. of the Left side of Polizei horses that might show the saddle mount for a sword if one exists?
It would seem to me that a saddle mount would make it much easier to withdraw the sword quickly in an emergency.
Jax

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George, perhaps the lack of nco runic pommel caps was a function of the demographics of the ranks. The Police Unterfuhrerdegen could be worn by only a small percentage of the total NCOs. I would think these NCOs were older, perhaps more professionally oriented, and thus less inclined to have joined the SS. The younger NCOs who joined the SS could wear the runes on their tunics, but would not have the sword. Even then, as I point out in a coming article for "The Military Advisor" on the awarding of runes to police, finding examples of the runes in wear can be difficult.

On the contrary, police officers tended to be younger when receiving appointments and saw the membership in the SS as the road to promotion. Consequently, they would have chosen the runic pommel caps for their Fuhrerdegens if the SS Fuhrerdegen was not available to them.

Of course, this is only conjecture based on some familiarity with the subject.

Jax, if there would have been a photo of the other side of the horse I would have printed it. I am just as anxious to have the full story. I searched my pictorial references and the photo I found was the clearest available. George would have put up a better one if available. I can only think of one photo of III Reich period of a mounted policeman with a saddle mount. That was in one of the early Johnson volumes and pictured a Fuhrerdegen in a saddle mount. But think about the position of the saddle mount for a Mounted Policeman- at the rear left of the saddle. To reach that saber, the a right handed policeman would have to pivot around at least 90 degrees and reach across his body while still reigning his horse too, or reach back with his left to retrieve it and then exchange it from left to right hand. It might be easier for a left handed policeman, but I have to think the righties were more prevalent.

You can see the benefits of carrying the saber from the left belt. It would hang low below his left hip but still fully accessible by simply reaching across the body. Perhaps the sword mount for the saddle was intended for parade purposes?


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WKC SS-POLICE NCO.

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From the WKC catalog. It says with SS membership you could get the officer or nco with runic pommel.

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Dale:
I think you have a scarce item there. Anyone else have examples to post?
Jim

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SS NCO POLICE

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I forgot to mention its a Krebs.

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Love those SS cap police NCOs.


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Dale & Dow,

Thanks for posting your examples of the Pol NCO with SS rune pommels. I have simply not seen one before...very nice! I think Joe hit the nail on the head citing the number of Senior Police NCOs that would have been eligible for this sword. That is probably why they are not seen. I also suspect there would not be much incentive to fake them since a SS NCO sword sells for much more than a Pol NCO, even with a runic pommel.

Great information!

George


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Thank Ya'll, for a super thread! The SS-Police NCO degen with rune pommel is very rare and way under valued. I agree with George that there is not much profit in faking them. The cost of a runic pommel would off set the gain.

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Dale,

I agree this is a great thread so far. Lots of neat stuff out there in cyberspace. The Weyersberg Police Officer Degen with the etched blade for 40 years of service is particularly beautiful. Especially since I have a weakness for NS Zeit swords with etched blades. And, two examples of the NCO sword with a runic pommel that I had not seen even one example of before. All super stuff!

Well, you guys are keeping your end of the bargain by posting Pol-Degen examples, so here is another example of an early police sword with the D guard and metal grip. This one was made by Clemen und Jung and has a Berlin distributor. This sword is longer than the ones previously shown and has a lightly etched blade.

George

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View of the hilt showing the Berlin distributor on the blade. This is an Imperial Mannschafts S�bel worn in a frog, probably by a Police NCO. Also, probably by the Berlin Polizei.

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George:
You have been hiding this one, huh?
A stone-cold beaut!
Drat!...now I've got another one to search for.
Really a nice one George.
Thanx.
Jax

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Jack,

Here is another similar Imperial Polizei sword with the same style of scabbard but with a P guard instead of a D guard. This one has yellow metal fittings and is for the Gendarmerie.

George

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You will notice that the blade is a plain quill-back by Clemen und Jung. Here is a closeup of the hilt showing the sharkskin grip and plain fittings. This is an enlisted style sword with unadorned dove hilt fittings but it does have the re-enforcement block at the junction of the P guard that is usually seen on officer swords.

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This Imperial Police sword is an item of issue. View of the Land Gendarmerie property markings on the reverse of the langet and the scabbard throat.

George

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George!
You've done it again!
Another Polizei long blade! and one I've never seen before, especially of the Land Gendarmerie.
We need to see more of these blades from your bottomless pit of goodies!
An amazing collection.
Thanx.
Jax

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Gents,

I picked up a nice Police Officer Sword by Alcoso this weekend. An un-messed with and grungy sword that cleaned up nicely.

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The neat thing about this sword is that is is marked with the Hast & Uhthoff / Dresden distributor marking. I seldom see distributor/dealer/retailer markings on police swords of this type.

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The reverse ricasso is stamped with the Alcoso logo in the normal manner. The blade is the normal brushed stainless style and the washer is black.

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Overall view of the hilt. There are no SS runes on the guard or scabbard. The tang is P+D marked. The fittings are plated steel.

George

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A very interesting sword. I can�t say that I remember seeing distributor markings very often myself. FP

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Wasn't the Hermann Rath firm actually a distributor rather than a producer?
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Jim,

I think you may be right. I don't recall that Rath actually manufactured swords and I don't see him listed in Walter's Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen. He may have been an "assembler" rather than a manufacturer but I am not certain. He appears to have been sanctioned since he had the odd SS runes within a diamond stamp on his blades. Good question.

FP,

The Dresden markings are what attracted me to this particular sword. I have an earlier Weimar period Saxon Gemeindepolizei sword with this same distributor marking. Actually, the really neat thing is that the die stamp on both blades is identical. Coupled with the mystique of the bombing of Dresden, I really like this sword.

George

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Alcoso and Rath IMO seem to have had an interesting association with the SS and German Police for two different as yet undetermined reasons. In spite of the original owners background - the Coppel firm received large contracts from the German Police for issue items. And the blades with the name of Hermann Rath on them were (as near as I can tell) the result of some kind of prior arrangement because the �Kulturzeichen� appear to have been stamped at the same time that the trademark was put onto the blade. In concept not unlike the factory stamped �Type I� M1936 dagger chain link �Kulturzeichen� markings. FP

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Back to the top to save the thread as requested.


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