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BadBob Offline OP
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Thanks for sharing this. Sooner or later, Polish and Czech governments will have to own up to what everyone knows happened to ethnic Germans in Schlesien, Pommern, Sudeten etc. In my visit to Wroclaw / Breslau 3 years ago it became aparent to me that those events are still carefully swept under the carpet, even by the local "history" museum. Yes, nazi Germany brought this upn themselves. That fact notwisthtanding, the mass expulsions resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths does qualify as ethnic cleansing and a crime against humanity.

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The fact that the Russian Army committed many atrocities including the murder of Polish officers is well documented now. This is another Russian attrocity.

Gustavo, this has nothing to do with the Poles, nor was this brought on by their actions. The article is clear about that.

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quote:
"It could have something to with the German civilians who were killed during fighting between German and Russian troops at the beginning of 1945.”

Their fate is so far unknown, according to Jesionowski – but the mystery may now have been solved.



So the perpetrators of this particular mass murder are not known with any real certainty. That Poles and Czechs murdered ethnic Germans in large numbers in 1945, however, is a historical fact.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gustavo:
quote:
"It could have something to with the German civilians who were killed during fighting between German and Russian troops at the beginning of 1945.”

Their fate is so far unknown, according to Jesionowski – but the mystery may now have been solved.



So the perpetrators of this particular mass murder are not known with any real certainty. That Poles and Czechs murdered ethnic Germans in large numbers in 1945, however, is a historical fact.


Gustavo:
Can you provide some references that substantiate your above statement? I'm not questioning the accuracy but I'd like to do some reading in this area.
Jim

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actually,
Gustavo seems to be throwing out revisionist history which is neither welcome or allowed on this forum.

Frankly, it amazes me that anyone from Spain can begin to criticize any other country for their actions. After all, Franco's Spain has one of the most despicable histories as far as both ethnic cleansing and the wholesale murder of their own people.

So, why do we not hear about those truth's. Oh, that's right, the Spanish people decided it was not good for them to speakof their crimes.

So, Gustavo, where is this historic "proof".

Jim

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In an effort to keep this on the rails before it goes off, I must state that the expelling of 15 million ethnic Germans between 1945-48 is an historical fact.

While the numbers killed will be debated for years, many Poles, Czechs, Romanians, Hungarians (and others) took the opportunity to exact revenge for 6 years of war and occupation on these German civilians.All men are capable of evil deeds, and in recent years this mass expulsion of Germans from ancestral homelands is considered ethnic cleansing.

If further reading is required, there are many books on the market by a myriad of scholars on this subject..if you have not read about this subject before, you will be surprised at the sheer scale of the movement, and the violence.

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Jim: Your comments on the Spanish people and their history is not consistent with the actions of the Spanish government since the demise of Franco. The government's attempts to correct the misdeeds that took place on both sides of their Civil War has been both agressive and appropriate.


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ussian. your response represents current propaganda. Here is one small quote regarding the Kings necessary steps to form a government and avoid another revolution.

"The first government of Juan Carlos was presided over by Carlos Arias Navarro. The King made this appointment in accordance with the guidelines of the 1966 Ley Orgánica del Estado ("Organic Law of the State"): the Consejo del Reino ("Council of the Kingdom") proposed a list of three candidates, and from among these the King chose Arias Navarro.

The appointment of Arias Navarro did not foretell large political transformations. Nevertheless, the new government included three individuals who had once collaborated with Franco's state but had now become dedicated supporters of the movement toward a democratic state: José María de Areilza, a member of Don Juan's Privy Council, was given the portfolio of Foreign Affairs, whilst the diplomat Antonio Garrigues y Díaz Cañabate was named Minister of Justice, and Manuel Fraga Iribarne was appointed Interior Minister (Ministro de Gobernación). However, to maintain political balance, the Vice-Chairman for Defense was an unconditionally pro-Franco military man: General Fernando de Santiago."

The king had no choice but to include the former Franco criminals in the government to maintain order. If someone is running down people now, well, it is too late. The criminals were allowed to go un punished in Spain.

In addition, just last week we saw the Spanish people who have truly been the subject of ethnic cleansing, rape tortue, and all the other indignaties put upon them by Franco and the Spanish people. The Basques.

Now, if you want to talk about history, let us now address the Russian attrocities during the entire communist period including the murder of Jews and any person of education and the middle class, farmers, industrialists, and all the un punised war crimes.

Tyhat is the point. If yiou want to address history, address your own. Because it is just as basd as everyone elses.

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Better to stay on topic then try to redirect now to other history happens. Also remember no nation is clean and most people died and are still getting killed in the name of religions.

The history after 1945 is not much puplic but the view should get directed more east and then we can talk about other mass executions or for silent Holocaust. Many nations not only the Germans where interested to kill jewish people. Even Hitler was getting money from American companys.

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hey we just about exterminated the native Indians here in the US. Many countries had their turn trying to exterminate the Jewish.

Serbs,Italians, Africans Palestinians, Russians, Germans,US,Spain,Polish,etc.etc.,pogroms, , freedom fighters, nationalists, liquidations,'cleansing's..
* Everyone kills everyone else.
No country is innocent of spilling innocent blood.
To bad,,interesting opening story

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I have to disagree with Jim M who appears to be ill-informed on the matter. I have met in person with German veterans who were post-May 1945 POWs in Poland in POW/slave labor camps operated by the Poles and not the Russians. These POWs had to work in coal mines and were worked to death in the same fashion as the worst slave labor camp that the Germans might have operated. In the Sudentenland thousands of retreating or surrendered German soldiers were shot or beaten to death by Czech "militia" groups.

John

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Gustavo:
Can you provide some references that substantiate your above statement? I'm not questioning the accuracy but I'd like to do some reading in this area.
Jim



quote:
Posted 05 August 2009 13:27 Hide Post
I have to disagree with Jim M who appears to be ill-informed on the matter. I have met in person with German veterans who were post-May 1945 POWs


John:
Just how can you DISAGREE with someone who simply asked for more information?
Jim M

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim W:
Frankly, it amazes me that anyone from Spain can begin to criticize any other country for their actions. After all, Franco's Spain has one of the most despicable histories as far as both ethnic cleansing and the wholesale murder of their own people.


I don't think either side was innocent in that Jim W. Heck the Spanish Republicans where brutal as well, how many innocent Catholic clergy was simply slaughtered for the Spanish Republicans Communist ideologies? I know from personal research that the number is great. And the idea that the it is revisionist history that ethnic Germans were slaughtered while being expelled from the east is an utter fallacy in itself. I've spoke to at least two Germans alone who lost nearly their whole families from East Prussia. One spent 9 years in a Russian POW camp only to return home(not ancestral home) with hardly a relative to welcome him. It happened and by any means it doesn't minimize what the Germans inflicted on other during that period. Even though the Germans that were being slaughtered were innocent woman, children and old men as well. So like Gaspare said no country is innocent of blood. There is no need to deflect it to the Spanish civil war the topic wasn't about that to begin with. It was about a vengeful nation Poland exacting their discontent and angers onto another people the ethnic Germans. Was it right? The German in me says a resounding NO! But the researcher says its probably understandable after what the German occupation put them through. Though I won't go so far as to say it was justified. The blood of an innocent is never justified. Only that you can understand their anger at that time, was sadly still exist today to some degree.

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Guys I have just one simple question - who strated the secound world war, who invaded who ? Who mourdered men, women, kids ?

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Gottlieb, I think that's a very deep question the responsibility for the war is a more complex issue then Germany invades Poland with the help of their Soviet pals. That's the obvious elementary answer. But I think that there is a plethora of reasons why the Second World War began. It much more complex than A+B=C. There isn't a syllogism in the world that could explain the start of that great conflict. Although I believe your question to be rhetorical in nature. Nevertheless I'll answer your question of who murdered men, woman and children? Will the biggest executioners would certainly be Germany, USSR and Japan. I'll give no credit to the poor history that is taught in schools. Germany was not the only criminal enterprise operating during the war and far from it. Lest we forget the raping of Nanking, China by the Japanese or the Katyn Massacre, et cetera, et cetera that the Russians are responsible for. Sure there is a lot of blood on Germany's hands albeit there is almost an equal amount on the others I stated. I think we forget a lot of the victims by mentioning only the crimes of Germany. I think a lot is missed whether purposely or not, not included in education, books and media these days. Not enough remembrance of the others who suffered. In closing I'll quote Gaspare again, "no country is innocent of blood". That is certainly a very very true statement.


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