UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Anyone with a rare NSFK/DLV

Hello all,
If anyone here has an NSFK/DLV by any rare maker (other than Heller, SMF, Helbig) please contact me.
Makers such as David Malsch, Horster, Puma, or any other rare makers are of intrest.
Hope to hear from you.
Johnny

PS- This is NOT a "want ad", I am interested in construction differenced between manufacturers.

PSS- If you have one and are coming to the SOS we might be able to have an interesting "compare contrast" session as I will be bringing a few of mine.
Hope to hear from you...

Johnny,
I think these are all somewhat rare, yea you have your common makers but compared to the 1st mod. luft and luft swords etc. far fewer were made. Just my thought, My Helbig
Good luck at the SOS
Eric

Oh yea, unlike fritz this is mine.

Please post it with todays newspaper!!!

Eric...You better put a watermark on the photo, or it will end up in Fritz collection,lol.

Eric- Thanks for your post. Yes these are all "rare" but the "standard makers" (Helbig, SMF, etc) also have very standardized parts.
I have a few pieces by less commom manufacturers which exibit unique fittings and construction. I am meeting with Whittmann at the SOS about this and was hoping to find other examples of contruction variations within these knives.

Nice knife by the way!

Oh also, if ANYONE knows who the collector is that bought the Puma NSFK from Whittmann PLEASE have them contact me.
Thanks again,
Johnny

Hi Johnny. That NSFK-Puma TW had was "salty" but rare. He had it for a while. But take a look at the Carl Krebs. Really hard to find them like that anymore. But I'm a patina man. That ones a beauty and rare too. Pat has got a
screamer Puma also.
I've got one of those "larger" scale versions. I'll dig it out and post a photo.
-wagner-

Wagner- Yes... I saw that Krebs, INCREDIBLE piece. At this very moment it is lying next to my Puma in a velvet lined case.
I have asked around and thus far it is the only one known by that maker!
Who is the maker of your "larger" knife???
I will ask Pat about his Puma, but I think you may be confusing us. If you are referring to this puma:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/812094573/m/6120050254
it also belongs to me also...
Thanks for the info, and I will post pics of the Krebs here sometime soon.
Johnny

Johnny you got the Krebs? GREAT! Conratulations! I was thinking of giving Tom a call on that one. Really nice piece. Glad you got it.
I believe my larger DLV is a Paul Weyersberg. Let me dig it out. It's been a while. But I do recall it being a bit larger than standard size.
Yes, I got you mixed up with Pat on that Puma.
-wagner-

You got a deal on that Carl Krebs! That's a very rare maker. Rarer than Puma! And the condition.... -wagner-
Oh, if you ever.....

Thanks Wagner!
Wayersburg is certainly not a common maker of these knives either.
As I recall Craig Gottlieb said that he had seen Wayersbergs which were larger than standard as well.
I am very much looking forward to see your piece.

An interesting note, the Krebs is larger than standard as well! Larger than the aluminunm Helbigs, but smaller than my Puma. All fittings on the Krebs are of a unique make. It's an interesting piece! Even the blade is of unique dimentions!

OK! OK! I'm going to the safe...
I got to dig out a SS boker too that I have posted.
I don't know how long you been collecting, but you have made some excellent purchases on the DVL/NSFK daggers you have shown.
There are many variations. Much harder, to find than many political daggers and under appreciated. And, in my opinion, still resonably priced by todays standards. -wagner-

Johnny, Wagner,

I would be extremely careful with these "variations" and rare makers of DLV-NSFK knifes that seem to pop up recently.
I own a copy of Wittmans Luftwaffe book and I find it strange that, with his 50 years of collecting/dealing, he would have made and published a list of DLV/NSFK knife makers that would be very incomplete...

I am not saying here that your pieces are not good!

There have been (and probably still are) many attemps to copy these knifes. I believe it is because large pieces of the dagger are covered with leather which is easy to copy and to age: you can still buy this type and quality of leather today.

There are plenty of good and bad copies of the knife offered at the shows here in Europe. Beware for smaller than normal crossguards, unusual crossgrain on the blade and leather that is lighter colored than normal. It is my experience here in Belgium that unusual makersmarks are put on trials and prototypes of copies of these knifes in order to "explain the differences" with the regular knifes. So far non of the exotic makers I have seen here have past the hands-on test. Personaly I would never buy a DLV nor a NSFK knife from seeing only the pictures.

Just like you, I find these knifes very fashinating but a quite "dangerous" area of collecting hobby; hands-on inspection is a must in my opinion, even so if you buy from the big dealers.

Best greetings,

Herman

Herr Mann,
Thank you for your concern. You voiced these same suspicions when I posted pics. of my Puma here as well.
Since that time it has been checked out by a few other knowing individuals and passed with flying colors. I also have since learned of at least 3 other Puma DLV/NSFKs in collections one of which was owned by a fellow collector over 20 years ago. Thus these makers are not (IMO) "poping up recently" but rather being recognized by deticated collectors when they may have been overlooked in the past.
Yes, you are of course right that Puma and Krebs are not in Whittmanns book. However since the time of Whittmann's army book coming out how many legit makers of Heers have been recognized by collectors, and Whittmann himself???
I think that in these times of "fake" paranoia we may be overlooking the fact that these knives have themsevles been overlooked in the past. I believe that far lass attention has been historically paid to DLV/NSFKs as opposed to the "prettier" Lufts and Heers, or the more politically charged SS and SA daggers.
There was a time when collectors did not recognize the difference between Heer crossguards from one maker to another as being significant. It was not until recently that these "variations" were substantiated as differences in the makers manufacturing. I do not understand why so much variation is understood in SA's Heers, Lufts, etc. but is not understood by some in DLV and NSFK daggers???
Do we still believe that all Heers w/ aluminum fittings are post-war fakes???
I am not claiming that these pieces are "prototypes" but simpply that they exibit variations from one maker to another which in understood and accepted in nearly EVERY OTHER dagger type. What other daggers do not have any variations from one maker to another?

Besides, again, this "question" of authentification is not the topic that I originally posted about. I am looking for individuals with rare DLV/NSFK makers.
Herr Mann if you have such a knife I would be very interested to see pictures.
Best Greetings,
Johnny

Herman. You are right. It's very strange. However there are legit items that come up that nobody has ever seen. And we have to be careful not to "kill it", beacuse it's not in a book. Or that killer phrase "Gee, I don't know. I've never seen that before". But at the same time, there are some very good fakes that are out there and one has to be very careful. You are right.
Johnny just picked up a very rare maker marked
Carl Krebs from Tom Wittmann. Very rare maker marked dagger. I've seen a lot. I've seen Pumas too. But I've never seen a Carl Krebs. Have you? I'm very glad when a younger member picks up a rare dagger at what I think is a reasonable price.
But I do feel that your advice should be paramount in looking at any 3rd reich edged weapon. -wagner-

Johnny, Sorry it turns out to be a SMF, and not a Weyersberg. I'll post some pix. -wagner-

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SMF-DLV on left. Eickhorn-DLV/NSFK on right.

Hope this works this time...

Wagner, Thank you VERY much for your pics. It is VERY interesting to me that SMF had a larger version as well. I think that some people doubted the larger pieces because they often seem to come from the rarer makers, I did not know that SMF produced a piece of these proportions.
THANK YOU!!
Johnny

When you look at the first pic. with the standard size next to the larger SMF you can see that the scabbard, scabbard fittings and even the grip are longer wider and more massive than the standard version. Even the carrying ring is larger then standard!
This is just like the Puma that I have... VERY interesting!
I have found that people who have had these larger pieces in their collections often never notice it until they place the larger one beside a standars version.

Your Welcome Johnny.
As you have noticed for some time, many collectors get "skittish" when something isn't texbook. There are so many variations. Some major, as in the case of the Large DLV. Others are very minor. Even TJ and TW do not dismiss "non textbook conforming" pieces anymore, if everything else looks right. I guess they must have seen a lot of "variables".
When I first saw this early nickel Large SMF-DLV, I knew right away "I've never seen one before". Photos don't do it justice. When compared to a standard (textbook) DVL/NSFK, it really stands out. The textbook version is a Dirk. The Rare Large variation is a dagger. The grip and pommel on this SMF is a slight but different design. THERE ARE NO INTERCHANGEABLE PARTS ANYWHERE.
Now, what are they? Why two complete different sizes? Waybe we will have to find out when Johnny's planed DLV/NSFK book comes out... to be continued.... stay tuned... -wagner-

Johnny,

Did not want to repeat myself, just want to keep fellow collectors alert for possible frauds and share my way of avoiding them.

Here is a Paul Weyersberg.

Best greetings,

Herman

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Herr Mann,
Now THAT is a nice dagger! Congrats! I can see from you avitar that you have a few of these. Have you noticed any differences between the makers?
I have also noticed that among "K" marked crossguards there are 2 (maybe more) variations, one has a more convex swaz. than the other. Have you noticed this on your pieces as well?
Thanks for the pics. and good hunting,
Johnny

Wagner- Did you get my PM?

I have to correct myself- Carl Julius Krebs IS listed (and pictured) in Whittmann's Luft. book on page 29!!!

Yes Johnny. I replied to it. Late last night. If you didn't get it. I'll reply again.

Herman, Very nice example of the "Large" early
DLV variations.

Also, I have to mention the quality of this variation.
It is of the highest standard in fit, finish and materials used.

-wagner-

Wagner, I checked the PM thread again and there is no response... strange. Please send/post your response again.

HerrMann- Is the dagger that you posted a "large" or standard version???

Replied to PM. Confirm if recieved. -wagner-

I thought Hermans was a large. But when comparing the grip cofiguration to mine it looks like a standard. Unless he says different.
I have seen a large Weyersberg somewhere before. -wagner-

Herman, Is your DLV a "standard" or a "Large". Thanks, -wagner-

Wagner, Johnny,

This Weyersberg has the standard measurements.

I will measure my knifes next time I will get them out of my safe, they vary a bid in lenght, but non of them has the "king" size that you guys are after here.

Best greetings,

Herman

Here is one that is considered rare: Josef M�nch

Best greetings,

Herman

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Oh Yes! You bet that is a rare maker. Very Nice example to boot. All early nickel silver. Hard to find. Thanks for sharing Herman. -wagner-

NICE piece Herr mann!!!
If you can think of parting with it... let me know!
NICE dagger!!!

Wagner, Johnny,

Thank you for the compliments.

Here is one more, as you did not mention it with the common makers, why not show it...

Best greetings,

Herman

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Wonderful! Very early Eickhorn with the "smooth tail" and C.E. logo. Love it Hermann. Keep em coming. -wagner-

Wow, that is one sweet early Eich!!!
Weren't there 2 different Eich. logos used on these daggers?

Here's one for you Johnny. Don't know much about it. Thought you would want to see it. -wagner-

Wow!
Now that is interesting!
Where did you find that one?

Johnny. From an older collector who was going through a divorce. He bought most of this collection from TW in the old days. He still has a few pieces left, if your interested. But I want the full rig mint SA, OK? -wagner-

Sounds like a deal to me.
If he is selling this piece, let me know.

Johnny V:

I have a slightly unusual Krebs DLV that I can bring to the SOS. It has a number of non-textbook features including no throat marking and an RZM hanger. I am not sure that it is real or Memorex.

Where will you be holding the viewings?

John

Johnny, I already got this one. He doesn't have anymore DLV's or NSFK's. Some SA's, a NSKK or 2.
1st and 2'nd Lufts. Army. And a couple of more that I can't recall now. He doesn't advertise. If it's not your thing, I can turn the deal over to one of the other boys here since I know your into the DLV type. Prices are very fair. I'm just not into buying and then reselling. Just trying to help out a younger collector. -wagner-

Wagner- I sent you a PM.

JohnZ.- I would be very interseted to see your DLV by Krebs. Mine is also non-standard and it would be good to get them together.
I was planning on stopping by Whittmann's table and discussing the pieces with him since he expressed an intrest in these non-standard types. I will probably do this sometime in the late afternoon on Thurs.
If GDC members were particularly interested I could also bring them to Graigs party for all to see.

Here is one I picked up about 15 years ago

Blade has no TM, the crossguard has no markings, stamps or any other ID.

OK, you guys are KILLING me!!!!
Those are some sweet looking demast knives guys!!!

That is a exceptionally nice example Manfred. I think Johnny's going to go into "Hyper Drive" -wagner-

JohnZ-Any chance that you could post a few pics of your Krebs???

I did not know that these were produced in Demast. They are probably as rare as the Demast RAD and RLB leaders.
Congrats guys!!!

Johnny V:

I don't have the DLV in hand now and will not be back home until the 15th of February. (I gave the DLV to Paul Hogle to look at and make me an offer.. he may have some pictures of it at this time.) I will post some pictures then, but I will bring to the SOS and look for you at Wittman's table on Thursday or at Craig's party.

John

My Krebs...

scabbard

JohnnyV:

Here are some pictures of my Krebs DLV courtesy of Paul at Lakesidetrader.

Pic1

Pic2

Pic3

Pic4

Pic5

Pic6

Pic7

Pic8

Pic9

Like I said, I am using Paul's pictures of my dagger with his permission. I asked him to take a look at it and make me an offer. He did and it was way too low ;> I am bringing it with me to the SOS, where maybe I can do better, I'm hoping.

John

John- Sweet dagger, I will compare it to mine when I get home. Off hand though it looks like yours has the makers mark further down the blade. Nice RARE maker though!
As for Pauls low offer, that's why we love him!He may biy low, but he also selld lower tham most major dealers as well.
PS- I sent you a PM.

I think that it is very interesting to note that the Krebs maker mark on John's dagger is much further down the blade than the same maker mark in Ilya's posession.
I believe that mine is closer to the crossguard like Ilya's....

Here is my Krebs DLV. Like the one recently sold by Wittman it has no "K" in the crossguards and dome head screws instead of the usual flatheads. The makersmark is on the correct place: close to the crossguards.

Best greetigs,

Herman

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Herr Mann,
Congratualtions on a fantastic piece!
You are correct about the similarities between your and mine (from Whittmann).
I have also noticed a few other differences in the Krebs pieces that I was hoping you could confirm for me in your example.
1) The non "K" marker crossguard has slightly "thinner" quillions when viewed on end, then standard crossguards.
2) The blades on these Krebs pieces are slightly longer an wider than other makers.
3) The swaz. on the corssguard is slightly thicker or more bold than that of other makers.

There are MANY other differences with this maker which I can see from the pics. that you posted. Thanks!

Hello Johnny,

1) yes, absolutely!
2) longer: yes, wider: not really, maybe less than 1 mm?
3) yes, clearly!

Best greetings,

Herman

Awesome, thanks for the input Herr Mann!

Hello Johnny,

Can you post some more pictures of your DLV by Krebs?

Best greetings,

Herman

Herman, I posted more in the "king" thread. If there are any specific shots that you are looking for, let me know.
Take care,
Johnny