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JohnZ #222719 07/06/2010 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: JohnZ
I just picked up a variation on the C Gustav Spitzer TM. I knew that there were two variations of this mark, the so-called large and small versions. What I didn't know is that the one that I had posted earlier was the small variation and that the larger variation had some distinctive script and logo differences over and above the size.

You can see the differences in the side by side comparisons.

Look at the script, look at the dot between the letters 'S' of Solingen and 'C' of C Gustav and see the differences between the lions... not just size, right?

John



Very interesting John. You need to have a "keen" eye in this buisness grin keep up the good work my friend.

Hope to see you in September
Take care.
Regards LH

Here is my Spitzer.





Last edited by LH 600; 07/06/2010 03:28 AM.
LH 600 #222721 07/06/2010 04:26 AM
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LH:

That is a very nice Spitzer.

Yes, I too am lookign forward to September in Norway (or is it Finland, ha ha).

John


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JohnZ #226426 08/20/2010 06:37 PM
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I came home yesterday from a trip to Toronto and brought back with me a variation on the small E Pack Siegfried wielding hammer TM.

Look at the comparison photos.. the feet are different, the apron is different and the belt flowing from the apron is very different.

While not as striking nor as obvious as the TM shown by Tom Kendall earlier on his variation, I think that this version differs enough to make it collectible by itself.

John

TM 1.JPG (39.97 KB, 368 downloads)
TM 2.JPG (40.03 KB, 369 downloads)
The Two.JPG (39.87 KB, 368 downloads)
The Two 2.JPG (39.53 KB, 365 downloads)
The Two 3.JPG (39.66 KB, 366 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #226437 08/21/2010 12:17 AM
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Hi JohnZ, here is a Christianswerk maker mark,nats

006.JPG (45.49 KB, 349 downloads)
nats #226439 08/21/2010 12:29 AM
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Nats:

Nice... I want it, I want it... grin grin

I don't have one of those babies. cry

John


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JohnZ #226510 08/22/2010 01:04 AM
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John that’s great can we see the rest of the dagger.


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Tom:

I will post the dagger on another thread.. I think that I want to keep this with TMs only.

Maybe tomorrow?

John


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JohnZ #229384 10/03/2010 07:50 PM
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This seems to be a Pack year for me.

You have seen this TM on a superb Luft2 that WWIICollector has posted in this thread.

For a long time, I was worried that the only example of this mark was in Tom's collection and that I would never be able to find another.

But, after a heads up from Tom, I did manage to get this example. Now there are two... but Tom's is way better condition.

Here it is,

John

TM 1.JPG (38.54 KB, 340 downloads)
Last edited by JohnZ; 10/03/2010 07:51 PM.

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JohnZ #229390 10/03/2010 08:10 PM
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John what a rare 2nd luft I only have seen two mine and yours congratulations on adding this to your collection.

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Nice to see yours is a nickel plated blade too no doubt a luft blade!!

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Here is my latest Luft2 addition.

The TM is quite nice but it is on a weird blade with all kinds of lines and spotting. wink

John

TM.JPG (40.04 KB, 394 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #230533 10/16/2010 08:15 PM
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Suggest some steel wool might clean that up a bit buddy!
grin

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You might have to grind that one down to get rid of those funny lines.

Gary

Baz69 #230554 10/17/2010 12:45 AM
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I will try an SOS pad first... oh.. maybe I will wait until the SOS and get more opinions...

John


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JohnZ #235725 12/19/2010 04:09 AM
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I just received this Tiger ... looks like a variation TM without the pictured cat and with a slightly different font used.

The first picture is the new TM, the second and third are ones comparing this to the known and accepted mark it is most similar to.

John

Tiger 1.JPG (74.13 KB, 348 downloads)
The Two 1.JPG (38.66 KB, 347 downloads)
The Two 2.JPG (39.97 KB, 347 downloads)

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JohnZ #236083 12/25/2010 10:28 AM
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S
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Great collection John !

-serge-

JohnZ #236764 01/07/2011 04:49 PM
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A pretty good handle.....Thanks for the info.


Everyone has blood in the gambling when they in New gclub gambler, then everyone will be sure enough stimulus in the gclub.
JohnZ #237819 01/21/2011 05:08 PM
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I have an army with the tiger mark without the tiger. Yours is the only other one I have seen. BTW your collection is amazing.
Phil

hans51 #237882 01/22/2011 04:06 PM
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Thank, guys!

Hans: Can you post pictures of your Heer Tiger? I would like to compare it to the Luft2 above.

John


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JohnZ #237885 01/22/2011 04:33 PM
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John,
The mark looks the same as yours.

100_1823.JPG (56.36 KB, 268 downloads)
hans51 #238035 01/24/2011 04:49 PM
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Hans:

Very interesting. I wasn't convinced that my mark was not a light stamping that was somehow altered and the Tiger erased. There is a flat spot that looks a little off on my blade.

Seeing yours and how it is very much the same as mine, now makes me believe that we both have something special.

Is it possible that both our daggers were altered the same way? Or was the TM strike a two part strike, one part for the cat and one part for the writing? This could explain what we see.

John


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JohnZ #238053 01/24/2011 11:27 PM
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Never seen that Tiger mark before on a Heer or Luft. It's almost like they forgot to stamp the Tiger.
7 trademark variations in total, somebody was either very fussy or had too much time on their hands.

Great thread BTW.
I personally think the two part or even three strike theory makes perfect sense, especially as some of the marks appear very similar with the exception of font spacing.

AllTigerMarksr.jpg (50.47 KB, 359 downloads)
Last edited by Degens; 01/24/2011 11:30 PM.
Degens #238557 02/01/2011 05:37 PM
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The other day, I was sitting around watching Being Human (the British version, way better than the remake) and started cleaning and Renwaxing some of my Lufts. I noticed that some of the special order items (etched, Damascus and artificial Damascus blades) have trademarks slightly different from the plain blade versions.

I see three versions of the CJ Krebs, crown over K, TM.

There is a large double oval, a small single oval and a large single oval version.

Here they are together.

The large single oval is on a double etched Voos-style blade.

Dbl Oval Large.JPG (39.82 KB, 322 downloads)
Sgl Oval Small.JPG (38.88 KB, 320 downloads)
Sgl Oval Large Voos Style etch.JPG (39.83 KB, 320 downloads)

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JohnZ #238558 02/01/2011 05:40 PM
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Alcoso has 4 TMs that appear on Luft2 blades and at least one other that is too early for Luft2s, but was used on Heers.

The Alcoso in script letters is slightly different on the two blades that I have, one plain and on artificial Damascus.

Alcoso script letter.JPG (39.89 KB, 319 downloads)
Alcoso script letter art Damascus.JPG (40.51 KB, 319 downloads)

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JohnZ #238559 02/01/2011 05:44 PM
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And, last, I had posted two variations of the Fridericus TM. I now think that I have a third on a Damascus blade. Look at the dots over the 'i's.

I don't understand why relatively small manufacturers, like Fridericus or Zeitler, have multiple versions of their mark while large manufactures, like Stocker, have only one.

If things go well at the SOS, I should have a couple more variations to show you in early March.

John

Fridericus TM.JPG (38.59 KB, 315 downloads)
TM.JPG (40.04 KB, 315 downloads)
Variant 1 on Damascus Balde.JPG (40.04 KB, 316 downloads)

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JohnZ #239088 02/08/2011 08:48 PM
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So, even though you guys are ignoring me, I will continue on with my TM variations postings.

The Klaas-meister himself, Herr Paul Hogle, found this Klaas Tm for me... neither of us has seen this mark on a Luft2 before this.

I believe that there are 4 possible Klaas TMs:

1) the commonly seen kissing cranes over the name Robert Klaas Solingen,

2) as above but without the city of Solingen being named,

3) kissing cranes by themselves only (probably seen on bayonets)

4) the words Robert Klaas in a circle around the kissing cranes.

I have shown the first one before but will include it in this post.

Here is my latest (sort of an SOS warm up, I guess),

John

Obverse.JPG (40.15 KB, 303 downloads)
Reverse.JPG (40.79 KB, 301 downloads)
Obverse Grip.JPG (39.92 KB, 301 downloads)
Reverse Grip.JPG (39.28 KB, 300 downloads)
TM.JPG (39.09 KB, 302 downloads)
Klaas TM.jpg (39.33 KB, 302 downloads)

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JohnZ #239109 02/09/2011 12:10 AM
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John you certainly have my attention now that Klaas with the circle mark must be super rare first That I remember seeing – Fantastic – I have high hopes for the SOS maybe I can point out the rare lufts I see for you and you can point me to the slant army daggers !. I do look forward to meeting you guys at the show!

JohnZ #239115 02/09/2011 02:03 AM
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hello all-i bought a small collection a few months ago this minty luft was part of it. i kept it-to nice to sell, maybe later. i have never seen this mm on a luft so i think it is rare bird. i could be wrong. please tell me if i am. thanks paul.

IMG_5934.jpg (45.32 KB, 285 downloads)
IMG_5938.jpg (25.03 KB, 287 downloads)
PAULZAYA #239119 02/09/2011 03:47 AM
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Tom:

I am looking forward to seeing you at the show... I get in mid to late afternoon on Wednesday and will be looking to bug people as soon as I get there... please give me a call and we can start early.

Paul:

ASSO is not a rare, but is a scarce maker to find on Luft2s. I have seen a couple of those over the past 3 to 4 years, but yours looks really nice. You guys may correct me if I am wrong, but I would (and apologies to Mike) consider it a 7 or so on the Luft2 McSarr scale, if such exists.

John


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JohnZ #240388 02/27/2011 03:35 PM
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Going back to the question of how a Tiger TM could appear that only has the word 'Tiger' and not the pictured cat on it.

There was a dagger for sale on a web site that has the words t the mark seemingly double stamped while the cat itself is only stamped once with no doubling of the lines. This dagger is no longer there so I cannot give you a link to it.

If we look at dress bayonets produced by Tiger, we will find that they are one of the few makers who put a mark on both sides of the blade, the cat on one side and the words on the other. This shows that Tiger had two types of their maker mark stamps, one with the cat and the words in some configuration (see the varieties above) and the other set with separate stamps for the parts of the mark.

So, between the two daggers pictured here, with missing cats and the one pictured for sale with a doubling of the words, I think that we can assume that, in certain cases, the wrong stamp, the one for bayonets, may have been inadvertently used on these daggers.

For your information, here are some shots of bayonets with Tiger markings on both sides of the blade.

John

The Two Obverse.JPG (38.68 KB, 252 downloads)
The Two reverse.JPG (39.14 KB, 251 downloads)
TM Obverse.JPG (39.88 KB, 250 downloads)
TM Reverse.JPG (39.19 KB, 250 downloads)

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JohnZ #240396 02/27/2011 04:55 PM
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Someone's up early this morning grin Interesting theory John & something that's certainly a possibility IMHO. I remember noticing some variants in Tiger marks on fire bayonets. Let me try to find the differences & see if I notice any anomalies.


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JohnZ #240464 02/28/2011 07:26 PM
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John I do like that Klaas. Very typical construction. The wire wrap, that pommel and the JLL hand-enhanced crossgard eagle. I've only seen that crossguard on Klaas and I think Voos.
This is turning into an excellent reference thread...

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Correction with 11000+ views it's already being used as a reference thread. smile

Last edited by lakesidetrader; 03/02/2011 03:26 PM.
JohnZ #240687 03/03/2011 07:39 PM
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And here is my Gustav Spitzer

P1000961.JPG (86.19 KB, 381 downloads)

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I collect badges and groups for the Polish Army in the West (Polskie sily Zbrojne Na Zachodzie) 1939/47 especially unit badges
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JamesT #240760 03/04/2011 11:13 PM
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A while back I took a group picture of some of my 2nd pattern daggers. It was not until I looked at them all in a "V" that I noticed one of the grips had the twist going from right to left. I checked the dagger over and could see no signs of it being messed with. It is in a stash somewhere and when I find it I will post some better pictures if interested. When I posted it here last time it did not raise many comments. I will try and find the link.

Seems that I have no posts....odd!! Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

Last edited by spock; 03/04/2011 11:16 PM.
JohnZ #240837 03/06/2011 12:44 AM
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John,

Your knowledge of these trademarks is great. Vern and I are awarding you a "Great Thread" badge that is well earned.

Best regards, Dave

Dave #240856 03/06/2011 05:53 AM
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Dave and Vern:

Thank you.

More TMs to come very soon. I am waiting for the mailperson (actually in my case it is a mailman) to arrive with a couple of new ones.

John


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JohnZ #241333 03/12/2011 08:30 PM
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Well, boys and girls of Luftwaffe land, I have a couple of new arrivals from the SOS that finally showed up on my doorstep.

First up is a new TM for the JohnZ wall, the Hans Kolping beer mug.

Here are two shots of the mark.

TM.JPG (39.8 KB, 316 downloads)
TM1.JPG (40.39 KB, 316 downloads)

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JohnZ #241335 03/12/2011 08:36 PM
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Earlier in this thread, we talked about the various Carl Julius Krebs trademarks.

We looked at a large double oval and a small single oval. There is also an etched version of the single oval on a Voos-style etched blade.

In order of etch size, the largest is the double oval mark and is the first one pictured here.

The next one pictured was a small single oval TM.

The latest arrival is a large single oval.

I also show pics of the single vs double oval and the two single ovals so that you can better see the differences.

John

CJ Krebs Dbl Oval Large TM.JPG (41.75 KB, 315 downloads)
CJ Krebs Sgl Oval Sml TM.JPG (41.23 KB, 312 downloads)
TM Sgl Lg.JPG (39.29 KB, 311 downloads)
The Two Sgl and Dbl.JPG (41.97 KB, 310 downloads)
TM Sgl Oval Sm and Lg.JPG (39.55 KB, 312 downloads)

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JohnZ #241396 03/13/2011 03:41 PM
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John that large etched Krebs must be very rare do you think it is the earliest of the marks?

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