UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum FEAST YOUR EYES ON THESE

Donnie
You do have to prove it. IF not, everyone will know the truth as it stands now. Awful easy to say that you don't have to prove anything.
Denny

Donnie:
When you could settle this by simply posting a picture of these daggers on a copy of todays newspapers and refuse that speaks reams to all of us. Sorry but I too have to agree with Denny Roach here.
Jim

Donnie, you are still a friend and you should know that. I only said it was a "sad" crash landing as it 'appears' that it is. If that's not the case, it's OK and don't take it so hard. I don't know anyone who has that many high leader daggers and never said a peep to anyone about it.

Come on my friend, of all people you know life is too short for this stuff. Be a good guy and get this behind you, don't vanish. If it was all a good joke...so be it. You are a good guy and we all need a spoof now and again.

Best..

Mark

JR, as a novice, I respect your postings and photographs more than possibly most other members, even when you broke my heart about my Wehog eagle, but, in my opinion, maybe you should have taken Donnie up on his photography endeavor before bringing up any of this.

After all, the offer was there to examine and photograph these items. Judgement surely could have been made then, and then exposed as either fact, or fantasy.

Now, either a guy's reputation will be stained here forever, or if he posts proof of ownership, then your's will be stained as being a bad guy.

Either way it is lose situation that, in my opinion, should have been handled off of the site first.

If Donnie is in fact a fraud, well, he should be exposed, but the initial accusation should have been made in private, and then exposed when you are positive.

Just the opinion of a new guy.

I guess my only question would be: Do all members need to post pictures of a piece on the current days paper when showing items or asking questions? I dont get the paper on a daily basis and I dont post pics much. I can say however many who do have nice items in collections dont post them here or anywhere. This type of thinking only goes to make members not post at all. I had planned on post 2 new tags in mike hansen's (2new's) old tag gallery should I go by the paper that day? Bret

quote:

Originally posted by Donnie:
Hey JR that sounds great, let me know ahead of time and I will get some goodies out for you to shoot. Maybe at the same time you could give me some pointers.

Actually I got into this hobby in the early 70's when you could get all kinds of edged weapons dirt cheap compared to todays prices.
I just tend to stash stuff away and hoard it like a packrat and keep a low profile.

I don`t normally stick my head up over the fence & pass comment on anything
like this but on this occasion I feel compelled to do so

This invitation does not sound to me as if Donnie has anything to hide & if he did previously choose to hide his lights under a bushel then that was his prerogative. Can we really conclusively prove or disprove anything with digital imaging & the internet? I like many will probably never meet any member of this forum personally & therefore I have to accept people at face value along with all their quirks & foibles.

If any member wants to take personal issue with another then private messaging is available & etiquet demands this as the proper channel. I regret seeing this kind of very personal & public denigration & think it unbecoming of this site & those that have chosen to use this forum for doing so. If anyone feels they have gained anything from this humiliating episode other than successfully driving away another member ( a supporting one at that) then I am genuinely sorry.

If I were Donnie I`d want to straighten this out but I can also see why he wouldn`t bother from some of the above comments.

Donnie sounds like a nice fellow. And if he claims to own these three daggers, I believe him. I certainly have no reason not to believe him...

All I have provided is a tool Donnie can use to prove he has the daggers. If he chooses not to use it, that is his option. Choosing not to use this tool proves nothing.. The rest of you are free to draw your own conclusions.......

Donnie posted an image of three items hardly anybody here can top... I think this might have stirred up a little jealousy....

Over and out............

SAD. I don't understand what was accomplished by this whole thing. "IF" Donnie doesn't own these daggers what harm was done? It isn't like he is trying to sell them. And why would he invite someone to come photograph them if he didn't own them? I think some take this HOBBY way to serious. JMO

This may sound hard to some of you, but I support for 100% the people who dare to expose in public all detected frauds .

I believe this forum is a place to exchange information, knowledge and experience on military items. A place where you can give and ask for opinions freely.

It is not a place where you can lie to your "friends" collectors and get away with it. I prefer that those individuals stay away.

Just my opinion.

Herman

Gentleman...I have read and reread this thread a half dozen times and dont see anywhere where JR has accused Donnie of anything. It seems like he is perplexed (as i am) and was just asking questions. They both are good guys and Donnie has been know to pull a joke or two on here, i seem to remember one on April Fools day. Sincerly Rick

The only correct action here is do do as suggested - post detailed shots of just one with a current newspaper and you will forever have as the song goes... R E S P E C T.

John

Looks like we all better start getting the paper everday then. Better call TJ,TW, and everyone else with a TR items over say 500 bucks or so. I wonder if they really own the stuff! Then check ebay for people selling highend cars and anything over, well heck anything for that matter. I wanna see pictures with the listing date on the pics. For that matter I think a new GDC rules and reg should be no post without the current days paper under the piece. What a load.BTW I have re-read this alot also. I didnt see John or JR or anyone outright say Don didnt own them but I can see the numbers of postings dropping off now Vern. I know Don wont be back. Thats whats really sad! Makes decisions about leaving the forum like many have done seem like the right thing to do. Another bad blow to the site in my view. Bret

You're taking this out of context... I can almost hear your rocking chair creaking on the front porch, as I read your post..... This is only about Donnie and his daggers. Nothing else..
This forum will be fine....

I don't post or check this particular forum as much as I should and just read this today. Guys what's up. Vetter didn't try to screw anyone so what's the dillio? Are we now going to police what people own and whether or not they tell the truth. There have been members of this forum who have done far worse than what vetter is accused of. I worked with a guy who claimed to own three houses and four corvettes. Biggest BSer I ever met, but he was a nice guy and I never once asked to see any of his cars or questioned his claims. It meant nothing to me. Vetter may or may not own these dagger but at the end of the day why do I care? Nice pictures at the very least and if he is a paying supporter of this site he deserved better. Some of those that posted here have lost a little of my respect, whether you cared or not.cheers and respect to all, Ryan S

@ Cog - I do not see how this is a bad blow to the site if a person leaves because he is questioned about a statment he made. (are we men or mice?)

There are many posts that would suggest that not all is as it seems.

In my neck of the woods if you make a statment and it is called in question you prove yourself or retract it is that simple.

If Donnie aka Vetter posts a picture with a dated newspaper he has the proof and everyone will know the truth - if he leaves then he will just add to the speculation that his posting was false.

Additionally I read this forum to increase my understanding of the hobby and enjoy the collections that others have been put together. I do not come he to be read B.S. it is that simple.

Regards,

John

P.S. I hope Donnie does post some pictures and they turn out to be the real McCoy - because I know I will never be able to afford to own anything as nice but I do get satisfaction knowing that someone does and he is will to share them for the benefit of all.

John, c'mon how fair is it that you ask vetter to post "proof" because someone doubts that he owns an item or items yet no one else is called to task. Last time that I checked and proof of ownership was not a criteria of this site. Also who has appointed themselves GDC ownership and integrity police? Yeah, you have the right to ask and yeah, Donnie has the right to say go screw yourself. I would have done the same if challenged. Might be fishy, he might be lying but who gives a tinker's damn. Jesus, the things that you guys go on about.Again I bet if a number of people were challenged on pictures and what they say that they own some might come up short. I have even been challenged on this forum because for years I did not own a digital camera and people didn't buy it because I never contributed pictures of my collection. You know what I still haven't posted pictures but ask members like Paul Hogle and Derek Chapman and Darryl Pajot who have seen my dagger and visor and uniform collection. You know sometimes guys are telling the truth when other members have doubted them. This is really getting stale fast. Cheers, Ryan

quote:

If these that you stated in your past posts are you My Friend, I kneel down on my dagger and apologize to the world. Just be you Donnie................ that is all that anybody ever wanted.

JR

My God... such SINCERITY. It damn near brought a tear to my eye.

JR has done nothing wrong here. Let's not kill the messenger. If you post something here--we all know you better be ready to defend it.

@ Ryan

I hate to answer a question with a question but what wrong with asking for proof?

With that being said I think you should review my posts... as you will read I was excited to see such rare items and Donnie offered to post more pictures. Now with some questions being raised I have only ask that he post a picture and follow the suggestion of another poster.

The strange thing is I do not know why you have decided to use a hostile\defensive tone in your posts? Please read my posts and you can see I have not. So may I suggest we keep it civil.

At this point the ball is in Donnies court and if he quits of something like this then that will tell it's on story.

Cheers

John

John there is nothing hostile in my post and if you have interpreted it that way sorry. I just think it ridiculous that Donnie should have to provide proof. I have explained my rationale. It is my opinion, nothing more, neither you nor anyone else need agree with it. Skyline, well whatever......not really worth the salt from my brow.Houston, I have no issues with JR and have not even mentioned him in my posts. Again, just because a guy posts some high end items he has to prove ownership? cheers, Ryan

Fair enough Ryan - tone in a post can sometimes be hard to interpret so case closed on that.

At this point the ball is in Donnies court it is his decision on how to play it.

John

Pic #6 is the know fake damascus huhnlein signed dagger

Just my opinion on this and nothing personal on anyone but in a case of proof as to your purebread why is it such a big deal to want to brag about and show proof of your proud ownership of an item.Hell you have to do it for dogs, horses, documents, the list goes on.Personally I would jump at the idea to prove its the real deal. Are we so above everyone else that its an insult to even question someone about its authenticy.If there was proof shown at the start of this thread you would have about 2 pages of congradulatory statements in stead of this debockle we have now.

Some of you fellows had better look at the photo's pz2001 called it.Saw this the first day and just wanted to stay out of it.If we read
Donnies past post they may very well be the "fill in" daggers he is writing about.Yes we can ask for better photos and Houston is right you post it you are open for it.The one thing I will say in defence of Donnie if I read correctly He never said they were all correct.

Ed
"All are Eickhorns and purchased from Wittman many years ago when I had money."
IF daggers are not correct, Wittmann has a lot of explaining to do since he doesn't sell repos...at least not the many years I've seen him selling.....

I hope Donnie will show proof positive that he owns these 3 rare daggers. It's incumbent upon him to present the proof. Some one said earlier that we all know we must defend items we post pictures of. That's the nature of this hobby and completely true.

I've watched MANY times as someone has posted pictures of items that do NOT belong to them, on eBay, and heard the commotion raised by Many people on this site. This type thing is no different.

If Donnie owns the items which I sincerely hope he does ( and no jealousy involved here since I couldn't give a tinker's dam about SAs or NSKKs unless they're free. ), he'll show them as either real or repos and sit back and receive an onslaught of apologies.
Denny

Bravo!!! someone has finally picked out the real controversy here. (as I have mentioned in an email to another esteemed member here) The bigger question is that Donnie states that he purchased all from Tom Whittman yet at least one is clearly a fantasy piece. Tom Whittman can either substantiate that he did indeed sell these to Donnie as alledged or he will state that he did not and that his reputation has been damaged by the insinuation(unless he did sell them and as reproductions). Accountability for posting pictures, never questioned it. All that I said was why is Donnie being singled out and held accountable for his pics and not the 1000s of other members who have posted? Is it only when someone doubts your honesty or checks previous posts and has reason to question? Second where is it stated in the GDC mission statement or code of ethics? A guy is innocent until proven guilty and as no crime has been committed that I am aware of the onus is not on Donnie to prove anything. You chaps pride yourself on fairness and freedoms yet here again is the blatant display of hypocrisy. For the record my personal views are that Donnie posted these as authentic (and not as reproductions) He claims that he acquired them from Tom Whittman and at least one item appears questionable at best. Thus I find it difficult to belive that they came from Tom. Not impossible but hard to believe. That , however is a matter between Tom and Donnie.In so far as the truth being told, I personally do not care whether the daggers belong to him or not or whether he is a liar or otherwise. It is non impactual in my life and has nothing to do with me. If members here see it differently that is your right and your freedom. cheers and safe collecting, Ryan

Tom Wittmann said yesterday that he's never heard of Donnie Buckner nor ever sold any of these dagger to him. If we as collectors can just arbitrarily post any thing that we want on this site and call it our own, then the games really will begin.

I personally have posted images of items that did not belong to me for pre-purchase authentication purposes only. In these postings I never stated the item belonged to me. This forum is an invaluable tool for collectors to get multipal opinions before we lay our hard earned money down...... And at the same time is highly informative for others...

Here is my latest acquisition. Yes sir ree I got me my very own B2 Stealth Bomber. It was just delived today right to my front door. Don't ask me to post a picture of it at my house though cause it came with the stealthie stuff activated. So in the meantime I'm postin this stock picture. I can post a picture of todays newspaper though. Now if I can just figir our whereinthehell i'm going to sleep tonite!

Jim,

I'm really sorry to say this but....

I don't like the looks of the decal, the border is too thin and the color is more like the color used on the fake B2s that were produced in the sixties... Sorry.

I have a question for PZ2001. Your post about Picture #6 being a known fake interests me. I have no doubt that the one shown is a copy. But is it your position that there was no such dagger? Here's a crooked scan of one from Tom Johnson's Vol. V, Pg 227. I personally took that picture back in '81. If that's a fantasy dagger it certianly fooled all the bigtime dagger people back then.

I'll pull my post back about #6 should have check a reference better,but this may not be the same dagger as shown in TJ book as it is a known repro blade.Can the owners from the book be contacted for ownership as this book was published in '85.This whole thing stinks wish we could just get to the bottom of it or chalk it off for it's worth.

Ed:
As I said in my earlier post, I have no doubt the one shown in picture # 6 is a copy. I felt that way as soon as I saw it. My question remains, is the NSKK Honor Dagger now considered a fantasy piece? The one I had in my hot little hands back in the late 70's to early 80's has probably switched hands a half dozen times since then. I have no idea of where it is today. Back then I personally showed it to every major dealer I knew. Several took it apart. Not one rejected it.

:That should tell you something!!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)D

I didn't think I had a dog in this fight and was merely following the thread with interest until it dawned on me that Donnie frequently boasts about being from the Great State of Texas. Well, I'm from the same Great State and feel, along with fellow Texan Denny Roach, that Donnie owes EVERYBODY an explanation for his original post and his subsequent resignation from this site.
I've followed many petty little arguments on the GD site since I signed on quite a while ago. Some I agreed with, some I didn't. The constant thread that's kept me here is integrity. This blatant resignation over JR's legitimate question certainly lacks any sign of integrity.

This is not a character assassination, it's an observation of the facts as I see them.

Donnie, my friend, it's about time to step up to the plate.......

Dear fellow colectors. First I have to admit that I do have not much personal experience with these certain honor daggers.
BUT
some tims ago, there has been a large, detailed and informative thread "ADOLF HUHNLEIN NSKK HIGH LEADER HONOR DAGGERS" started by the -I think- highly experienced Frederick J. Stephens. In this thead there are shown several of those honor daggers related to names like the late Doc.Milestone, Brian Maederer, Craig Gottlieb and other -I think- evenly highly experienced men. Our co-member Grant Biat has shown one of these H�hnlein signed Damast NSKK chaind dagger with imo resembles totally the one highly questioned in this thread. In the former thread there was not the least question about periodness of this certain dagger.
It was also mentioned in the former thread that there are several of this dagger around.
IMO, due to that these daggers in the former thread were not questioned by any of the experienced collectors/dealers I dare to assume that we have it here also to do with period daggers. Naturally, as ever, an in hand inspection would be necessary for a final statement and I think the personal owner of these daggrs had done this in hand inspection most carefully .
Whom they do belong? I hope that we all now don�t have to post all of our pics again with an actual newspaper added....
I personally would refuse do so ! On priciple I assume that the person who shows an edged weapon IS the owner of it until it is otherwise stated by himself.
Finally my question: How often did you all handle yourself such a high leaders dagger, in your own hands?????
Donnie, personally I highly would appreciate to see further pics just for the pleasure to see such extremly rare birds.
Just my personal thoughts.
Regards

wotan
I think you may missing the point here. That point to me is the difference between right and wrong. NO matter which way one dices it, it boils down to the fact that Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong.

Donnie posted these as his OWN without coaxing from anyone and said he bought them from Wittmann many years ago.

Wittmann denied knowing the gentleman OR selling the items to him (just yesterday).

If the time has come when a person can post pictures of someone else's property and walk away, that is fraud in my book and as JR said, "then the games really will begin". If that is what we want to see happen, Let's divide up into Teams and get the show on the road (I want to be on JR's Team).

I've asked Donnie to PLEASE provide proof positive (via eMail) and get the cloud cleared, but he has so far refused to answer. That's certainly his prerogative, but his failure to do so speaks volumes to me.

I don't want to run anyone away from GDC. Well maybe I do have one person in mind, but it isn't Donnie. I hope he clears this up and returns, but it doesn't look good right now.

I don't have a dog in this fight either.....
Denny

What's more pathetic?
Claiming to own some daggers you don't, or going out of your way to prove someone doesn't own daggers they claim to.

Dave, please delete this witch hunt of a thread.

Donnie made a mistake, let it go gentlemen.

I got an email a little earlier today explaining the background of those three daggers and that they are indeed in Donnie's collection and have been for some time.

It will take me a couple of days to contact the original selling dealers and another person or two to verify the background completely.

I will let you know as soon as I can.

Thanks,
Dave

Thank you Jon! Let it go. To Err is human to forgive devine. This is a guy most of you called a "FRIEND"