UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Question Re:SA maker

I have an early SA with the following maker mark: Muller Vogtei Herges Gottfried. Can anybody provide any info regrading this Maker. Is this maker hard to find? The knife and scabbard are in excellent ++ condition. There are no hangers.

The dagger is known as a Gottfried Muller and is relativly common, so say the books, but seldom really seen in outstanding condition. The Gau mark should be Fr

It has an interesting and usually very dark maker mark.

Mark

I agree with Mark , this maker is seldom seen .Please post some pic's .
Regards.

Thanks for the info. I will post some pictures this evening.

It is one of the few trademarks that is found two ways.

Here it is reading with the dagger point up:

And here it is upside down, reading with the dagger point up:

Here is is again, right side up, reading with the blade tip up.

Note that in the first and third photos I have posted that the Gau mark is BO.

Dave

PS - I would strongly caution everyone about rejecting an SA or NSKK dagger based only on the Gau mark that it has.

Here is another example of this maker..very dark marker mark.

Dave is quite correct on the Gau mark..as you can see both his and mine are marked BO.

Mark

I'm having trouble here... the group mark for Muller should be Fr as Mark has pointed out. Yet both daggers shown have a group mark of BO but Muller wasn't a maker of this region.

I guess there aren't any steadfast rules here?

I always had a couple of questions about this maker. Johnson stated that Muller produced blades in a prison. Is there a source for this? Also, where is Herges-Vogtei? I can't find it on mapblast. A quick google search points to a couple railroad related sites.

I thought that was Paul Muller the Damast. artisan. That work out of prison at some point?

Scott..I think the gau mark is according to Fisher's research based on reports and dealer sites (assumed) and with all my experience in SA's, some he has no Gau mark reference at all on and I have one very early SA with no Gau mark at all on it. I really think it's an evolving thing with no concrete basis yet discovered. But, that's just my personal opinion based on looking at hundreds of different makers in hand and comparing them to Fishers Quick Reference. BO (lower Bavaria) and Fr (Franken) were right next to each other actually touching each other's borders. I hope that helps a little. That's all I can make of it.

Mark

Thanks Mark... you know, I didn't even check the map to see if it was at all possible that Muller could have made daggers for both areas.

I keep assuming that since the Germans were so strict, (in those days), that there can't be allowances made, while on the other hand, I keep forgetting that there aren't too many rules set in concrete and that we must keep an open mind.

Thank goodness for the forum.

Gents,

I am not aware of any "rules" that said which makers were distributed in which area. I think it was a convenience thing, with the local SA getting their daggers from the closest manufacturer/distributor.

Again, I would caution collectors about thinking that a specific maker must have a specific gau stamp.

Dave

For some reason I have got it in my head that makers were assigned to different areas for the SA, while there were distribution centres for the SS that daggers could be ordered from.

Adam, Paul Muller worked out of Dachau. I don't know if his shops were in the camp itself or adjacent to it.

TTJ, in either volume I or II said that Gottfried Muller produced blades in a prison. That's always intrigued me. Was Muller an inmate, or did the firm utilize inmate labor? I think that would be an interesting topic for research. A good starting point would be Herges-Vogtei, but that seems to be a dead end also.

re: Group Marks. I'm with Dave on this. Until we can find period documentation, I believe it would be dangerous to judge authenticity on such a mark. I know many makers are associated with a specific group, such as Haenel and Sachsen, but I know of several exceptions.

Thanks, Dwight

Hi,New here but Herges-Vogtei is in Thuringia.Hope this helps to narrow it down.Hugh.

Thuringia is on the Northern edge of both Bavaria and Franken. They are all in very close proximity to each other.

Fascinating. There is much to be learned still on SA's.

Mark

As Karlsrue has stated, Herges-Vogtei is located in Thuringia. This town contained a district prison and the firm of Gottfried Muller used this labor force in the making of their daggers. After the war, the name of the town was changed to Trusetal and can be found on todays maps by that name. Gottfried Muller has no connection with the damastsmith Paul Muller.