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#206255 10/23/2007 06:49 AM
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For anyone who hasn't seen it.....

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=22525&pid=214350&st=0&#entry214350

Plus an earlier discussion of some fake items on which the above item is also being discussed....

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192747

Cheers
Don


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#206256 10/23/2007 03:26 PM
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I have not seen anything like that mark before. Herr Direktor Hechtfischer of the Bohemia works was named technical director of the new Allach works at the end of 1940. To the best of my knowledge, the two marks (Bohemia and Allach)were not placed on any Allach pieces.

This is either an unknown very, very early mark or a total fake.

Mark Roll Eyes

#206257 10/24/2007 10:47 PM
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Kris L has posted on MCF and his opinion is that it is a real mark, very early and I have asked for his source. It would surely help Allach collectors to know of a text showing this maker mark.

The mark does not appear in either the Passmore book nor the 1938-39 Allach catalog.

It may well be a good mark but unknown to many of us...I'll keep you posted.

Mark

#206258 10/25/2007 02:00 PM
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In the 1938-39 Allach catalog there were 4 versions of the piece number 503. It appears they were all from the same mold and the piece in question is a very early version of that same piece with a floral design, not seen before.

I would use a lot of caution on any piece that does not exhibit the generally accepted Allach markings but this piece very well may be a rare early piece, a "transitional" if you will, from Bohemia to Allach. There is no text to support this mark as shown as very little remains to be found regarding Allach in print that has not been found by serious collectors so far.

Comments and questions are always encouraged!

Mark

#206259 10/26/2007 07:34 PM
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I really don't know what to think about this piece. I've been pondering it for a couple of days & am still not convinced it's OK.....

Cheers
Don


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#206260 10/26/2007 09:42 PM
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Don,

A nice piece in the style of 'art deco' it is, but in no way does that etching and dotted circles resemble any Allach works ever seen before, nor do the dual markings on it.

Maybe more will surface like it. After all, it's only been 60-70 years since it was made. If we start seeing a lot of it, that will answer the question. It's a very simple overall design in it's basic form.

That's only my own personal opinion though.

Mark Wink

#206261 10/26/2007 10:20 PM
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Don:
Could you post a picture of it here so I and others who are not members of the forum can see it.
Jim

#206262 10/27/2007 02:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jim m:
Don:
Could you post a picture of it here so I and others who are not members of the forum can see it.
Jim



Gentlemen,

Here's the photos that I posted on the other forum.



Best regards,
John

Allach-Bohemia_Vase__1.jpg (38.89 KB, 444 downloads)
Allach Bohemia Vase
#206263 10/27/2007 02:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by jim m:
Don:
Could you post a picture of it here so I and others who are not members of the forum can see it.
Jim



Here's a photo of the Allach and Bohemia markings.

Best regards,

John



Best regards,
John

Allach-Bohemia_Vase__3.jpg (35.65 KB, 440 downloads)
Allach Bohemia Vase Markings
#206264 10/27/2007 03:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by jim m:
Don:
Could you post a picture of it here so I and others who are not members of the forum can see it.
Jim



Here's a photo of the Allach and Bohemia markings.

Best regards,

John



Best regards,
John


Gentleman,

Here are some additional facts concerning this piece that lead me to believe it is original and authentic:

1) No visible sign of any alteration of the marks under magnification.

2) Piece was purchased from a porcelain dealer in Germany who does NOT normally deal in Allach, Third Reich memorabilia or any military items. This vase was the only piece of Allach he had and the only Third Reich item he had.

3) Item was NOT sold as a rare item, only a "plain Jane" Allach vase. Price paid was 300 Euros. 300 Euros doesn't go very far in Germany for professional restoration/alteration. At the 300 Euro price point, decoration and/or alteration would not be price effective as it would not even probably pay for a mint condition Allach #503 on which to begin an alteration. Profit as a motivation for the creation of this piece is thus non-existent.

4) I can detect no inconsistencies (either in fact or motivation) that cause me to question the authenticity of this piece. In fact, all the available information available to me (low purchase price, transformation of an "Allach" piece into a "Bohemia" piece, utilization of a non-typical Allach decoration, etc.) seems totally counter-intutitive as to what one would expect if profit were a motivation for its creation. From a forensic perspective it would be straightforward to validate it's authenticity using modern analytical techniques. It's just not necessary and not work risking damage to the piece.

5) It seems to me that the only argued to challenge the veracity of the piece is the fact that no other similar pieces are known to exist. To this point I would argue that there is ample evidence for the fondness of the Germans special presentation pieces. Additionally, even if the piece is not totally unique but just part of a very low production there might not be many surviving pieces and it might take 60+ years (and the passing of the WWII generation) for the surviving examples to surface in the market place.

Best regards,

John

6) The piece is not for sale and probably never will be. That being so, it removes profit as a motivation for my sharing this information with the forum.

Best regards,

John

Best regards,

John

#206265 10/27/2007 03:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jim m:
Don:
Could you post a picture of it here so I and others who are not members of the forum can see it.
Jim



Here's a photo of the Allach and Bohemia markings.

Best regards,

John



Best regards,
John


Gentleman,

Here are some additional facts concerning this piece that lead me to believe it is original and authentic:

1) No visible sign of any alteration of the marks under magnification.

2) Piece was purchased from a porcelain dealer in Germany who does NOT normally deal in Allach, Third Reich memorabilia or any military items. This vase was the only piece of Allach he had and the only Third Reich item he had.

3) Item was NOT sold as a rare item, only a "plain Jane" Allach vase. Price paid was 300 Euros. 300 Euros doesn't go very far in Germany for professional restoration/alteration. At the 300 Euro price point, decoration and/or alteration would not be price effective as it would not even probably pay for a mint condition Allach #503 on which to begin an alteration. Profit as a motivation for the creation of this piece is thus non-existent.

4) I can detect no inconsistencies (either in fact or motivation) that cause me to question the authenticity of this piece. In fact, all the available information available to me (low purchase price, transformation of an "Allach" piece into a "Bohemia" piece, utilization of a non-typical Allach decoration, etc.) seems totally counter-intutitive as to what one would expect if profit were a motivation for its creation. From a forensic perspective it would be straightforward to validate it's authenticity using modern analytical techniques. It's just not necessary and not work risking damage to the piece.

5) It seems to me that the only argued to challenge the veracity of the piece is the fact that no other similar pieces are known to exist. To this point I would argue that there is ample evidence for the fondness of the Germans special presentation pieces. Additionally, even if the piece is not totally unique but just part of a very low production there might not be many surviving pieces and it might take 60+ years (and the passing of the WWII generation) for the surviving examples to surface in the market place.

Best regards,

John

6) The piece is not for sale and probably never will be. That being so, it removes profit as a motivation for my sharing this information with the forum.

Best regards,

John

#206266 10/27/2007 03:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jim m:
Don:
Could you post a picture of it here so I and others who are not members of the forum can see it.
Jim



Here's a photo of the Allach and Bohemia markings.

Best regards,

John



Best regards,
John


Gentleman,

Here are some additional facts concerning this piece that lead me to believe it is original and authentic:

1) No visible sign of any alteration of the marks under magnification.

2) Piece was purchased from a porcelain dealer in Germany who does NOT normally deal in Allach, Third Reich memorabilia or any military items. This vase was the only piece of Allach he had and the only Third Reich item he had.

3) Item was NOT sold as a rare item, only a "plain Jane" Allach vase. Price paid was 300 Euros. 300 Euros doesn't go very far in Germany for professional restoration/alteration. At the 300 Euro price point, decoration and/or alteration would not be price effective as it would not even probably pay for a mint condition Allach #503 on which to begin an alteration. Profit as a motivation for the creation of this piece is thus non-existent.

4) I can detect no inconsistencies (either in fact or motivation) that cause me to question the authenticity of this piece. In fact, all the available information available to me (low purchase price, transformation of an "Allach" piece into a "Bohemia" piece, utilization of a non-typical Allach decoration, etc.) seems totally counter-intutitive as to what one would expect if profit were a motivation for its creation. From a forensic perspective it would be straightforward to validate it's authenticity using modern analytical techniques. It's just not necessary and not work risking damage to the piece.

5) It seems to me that the only argued to challenge the veracity of the piece is the fact that no other similar pieces are known to exist. To this point I would argue that there is ample evidence for the fondness of the Germans special presentation pieces. Additionally, even if the piece is not totally unique but just part of a very low production there might not be many surviving pieces and it might take 60+ years (and the passing of the WWII generation) for the surviving examples to surface in the market place.


6) The piece is not for sale and probably never will be. That being so, it removes profit as a motivation for my sharing this information with the forum.

Best regards,

John

#206267 10/27/2007 03:06 AM
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Sorry for the double posting Wink

#206268 10/27/2007 09:37 AM
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John,

Thanks for posting the pictures here.

Please do not think that I suspect your motives at all. You have obviously found an odd item & are quite understandably & correctly enquiring about it. At 300 Euro, I would also have happily taken a chance on it.

If it turns out to be definitely good, then you have a very rare & valuable item on your hands, much, much more than the 300e you paid. However if it's a clever fake & becomes accepted as original it could open the gates to who knows what. This is why I am so cautious. However, that said, it is a lovely design & a very attractive piece.

Cheers
Don


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#206269 10/27/2007 02:55 PM
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Don,

Thank you for your post.

I am not taking offense to this discussion at all!

As I posted on another board, my profession is science and being in this profession I have come to accept (and embrace!) challenge and questioning as a necessary, and desirable, part of the process of establishing truth!

If one can not adequately defend their positions how can one expect others to accept them?

As I stated above I believe the piece to be genuine and authentic. Initially, as I'm pretty new to collecting Allach porcelain, while aware that Bohemia and Allach had a relationship during WWII, I did not realize the the uniqueness of the dual marking prior to purchasing. In fact, my initial motivation for purchasing this piece was that my wife said she thought the decoration on this vase was more attractive than the common colored bands seen on the #503 and she liked it-sometimes it pays to listen to your wife Big Grin

I fully understand the confusion regarding the double marking. However, as a newcomer to this field, Allach's marking system (with 5 or more different markings that are well accepted) seems to be, in itself, either incredibly complicated or confusing. Add in the cultural and political turbulence of the time (for example, Czechoslovakia's planned exhibit of "free" Bohemia porcelain at the 1939 World's Fair) and to me there is little wonder why it is so difficult to decifer a coherent marking system and motivation for a double marking of a piece? After all, I'm not sure we understand why Allach would mark its own pieces with so many different markings?


Go to go now. I'll be on again later.

Best regards,

John

#206270 10/27/2007 04:29 PM
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I think Don has better put into words what I felt about the vase. At the price you paid, I also would have bought it. It certainly is a piece for discussion and learning!

Mark

#206271 10/27/2007 05:40 PM
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Reexamination of the photos indicates that the green BOHEMIA mark was placed over the green Allach mark. Thus the process to produce this vase seems to be:

1) Production of an Allach #503 vase (including the “503" impressed mark and the raised Allach octagon)
2) Application of the usual period Allach green markings
3) Application of the usual period "Bohemia" Ceramic Works AG marking over the usual period Allach markings inside the Allach octagon
4) Application of glaze over both the Allach and "Bohemia" Ceramic Works AG markings

I apologize for any inconvenience. Apparently, exicitement and advanced age are not a good combination Big Grin

#206272 10/28/2007 06:22 PM
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Gentlemen,

I posted some additional comments on this topic on another forum but I thought there might be interest so I am including them below as well:

I just wanted to compliment Kris on his excellent summary of how to identify real vs. reproduction Allach marks-very professional!! With this work I think we can all agree Kris has, and is contributing immensely to our hobby and helping to keep us from spending our hard earned money on fakes and reproductions. Kris, I just hope the forgers aren't tuning in Big Grin

As I mentioned to some of you in PMs, I used to collect Third Reich pistols. After a while I did not feel it necessary to disassemble a pistol (remember towards the end of the war authentic guns were created with mismatched parts and finishes due to the haste in production) to determine whether a piece was "good" (or not). Rather I would step back and look at the piece in total (tone of blueing, wear patterns, mill or polishing marks, etc.). Taking this "totality" approach, recognizing pieces that were not original (or "messed with") became easy after gaining experience in the field. I became more confident of conclusions I reached on this basis than any other indicator. On this basis, I never got burned on a gun but I did come into possession of some pretty unique and interesting items that I might have not purchased had I taken taken a no risk, go by the textbook approach. Kris is taking such a "totality" approach in his critical ( and fact based) assessment of the veracity of this vase under discussion.

I therefore strongly agree with Kris that the strongest argument for the originality of the piece is the "totality"of the piece itself (i.e. the total sum of the the artistic design, the marks, the quality of the execution, etc.). After the destruction of many of the Third Reich's records (in many cases intentional) and more than 60 years of time past we will probably never understand WHY a particular piece may have been produced. It is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to have an objective argument about the WHY a particular piece may have been created unless the appropriate documentation has survived. It therefore seems the best we can do is have a objective argument on the veracity of the piece based upon the artistic design and physical characteristics of piece itself .

On the above basis, the questions I would then ask myself are:

1) IF Allach and Bohemia, decided to jointly create a piece, would this piece meet the high technical and artistic standards of both individual companies (and the overseeing SS)?

2) Would the artistic contributions of each company in the work be consistent with the individual company's expertise and would the piece, in total, be artistically unique and better than either company could produce by itself. Otherwise why would two companies (or the SS) choose to do a joint project at all? Shouldn't the offspring of a joint effort contain the DNA of both parents?

3) Does the piece possess markings that are period and technically correct for both companies.

I believe in the case of this particular vase the answers to these three above questions are "yes":

1) In my humble opinion, the quality of this piece does not only meet Allach's high standards of design and execution for vase production and design, it EXCEEDS them (please see original photo posted above). The cut decoration clearly requires a different (and probably higher) skill set than that used on typical Allach vase production and is typical for Bohemian artisans.

2) Allach is unsurpassed for its porcelain quality and the clean, modern design of its vases. Similarly, Bohemia (as a region) is well recognized for it high level of skill in creating cut designs. Together, the two companies produced a piece that unquestionably unique, very high quality and could not have been as well by either company independently.

3) Kris has very professionally addressed the veracity of the Allach markings on the piece. Based upon Bohemia reference markings available with firm "time stamps", the Bohemia marking is correct (can be discussed more if desired).

Then, WHY was this vase created? I don't think we will ever know. Do I none the less objectively believe (as opposed to wishful thinking) that this vase was the joint work of Allach and Bohemia Ceramics Works as its markings indicate? Based upon all the totatalty of the facts surrounding this piece and the piece itself, I do believe it is original and authentic.

Because my wife and I don't intend to sell this piece, to us our peace with the veracity of the vase is the most important validation. From an historical perspective however I would hope this piece is not easily dismissed based upon dated reference works as in doing so we might lose some clues to the past and impede our advancement of knowledge in the future.

Best regards to all,

John

#206273 10/28/2007 06:45 PM
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Why does this not surprise me? Big Grin

You are the owner of the thing and want it blessed no doubt. Roll Eyes

John, you have 9 posts here and are a new member on the W-A forum. There is much more to be learned in the world of Allach than one guy knows. Give it some time and see what develops.

There are some fine pieces in Latvia that have never before been seen as well, you just gotta know who to ask! Wink

Credibility does not come instantaneously nor with that particular guy's blessing...he can't post here as he was banned and for good reason.

Mark Eek

#206274 10/28/2007 07:10 PM
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Mark,

Do we disagree on any of the factual content in my recent post-including the value of Kris' detailed analysis of how to differentiate genuine vs. facsimile Allach markings? If so, please let me know-perhaps I overlooked something or I didn't well represent my argument..

I know we have some disagreement on the final conclusion but we'll probably have to respectfully agree to disagree. Short of coming up with a time dated photo or original documentation on the vase it hard to "prove" anything that is unique to be original and authentic. If that standard of requiring was applied to paintings we would't ever discover any previously unknown works.

On the other hand, if forgery were the objective of this piece why would you create a unique design that would beg for a higher level of scrutiny than if it had a plain white glaze finish (would be less work and less chance to make a misstep that might be detected as well)?

Mark, as we have not met and really don't know each other's educational and professional experience I think it's pretty difficult for us to judge each other's qualifications or authority to comment on any topic. One life lesson I know well however is that the volume of writing (or number of posts for that matter) does not necessarily correlate well with the quality of content which needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Best regards,

John

#206275 10/28/2007 08:40 PM
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Hello John,

this vase is just lovely! I love it and you should be proud to own it - if you want to sell it once you can count on me Wink.

Enjoy Sunday!

#206276 10/28/2007 11:41 PM
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John,

I have taken the position that it is "either a very, very early piece or a total fake" right from the get go.

If you look in the Allach catalog, there is a piece that is possibly incised in it's exterior design albeit not as much as your example; Kugelvase model 503 in fact. It may have been painted or it may have been incised or carved on it's body..too hard to tell from the one picture of it.

We are on the right track I think but I would rather err on the side of caution than jump to a "no question about it" conclusion on this one vase. It deserves more. We just can't jump 60-70 years of history in two weeks or so.

That's all it is for me, nothing more.

Best Regards,

Mark

#206277 10/29/2007 04:47 PM
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Has it occurred to anyone that the Bohemia mark could be wrong? The Allach mark looks ok to me but I've been looking on the net & can't find a Bohemia mark that matches properly.....

Here's a reference site with all the accepted marks http://www.collectorscircle.com/bohemian/porcelain/marks_table1.html The Bohemia are about half way down.

In all of the marks the lions tail loop is different as is it's raised back foot. The font used in the word Bohemia is also very clean on this piece compared to all the reference marks shown on the site.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Don


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#206278 10/29/2007 07:12 PM
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Hello Don,

Thank you for your very astute observations and comments!

Interestingly, if one looks at the various similar export markings associated with "Bohemia" Ceramics Works at this web site it is clear that there is substantial variation within these marks as well. For example, in some cases the rearmost portion of the back leg extends past the loop of the tale and in other cases the reverse is true. Similarly in some cases the top of loop of the tail is more rounded (like the one on the Allach/Bohemia vase) and in other cases the top of loop of the tail is more flattened. Perhaps, we're simply observing the latitude of variation of Bohemia's markings.

Regarding, the fidelity of the font in the word "BOHEMIA" I expect their would be difference (although I don't how much) resulting from the printing in one case on Allach porcelain and, in the other case, printing on Bohemia china (with a potentially different composition and texture). Additionally, the resolutions of the images on Ginni's website are such that for me it's difficult to tell how sharp the images might be under direct observation.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any contemporous non-export markings for Bohemia that we might be able to use for a comparison.

I have sent copies of photos of the Allach Bohemia vase and its markings to Ginni Snodgrass (the lady whose website contains the Bohemia porcelain information and reference markings) asking her for any information, comments, observations, etc. that she might have in this matter. Unfortunately I have not yet received a reply (2+ weeks since trying to establish contact). If I do receive such a reply I will be happy to share it with this forum.

Thank you again for your observations and thoughtful comments.

Best regards,

John

#206279 10/29/2007 07:26 PM
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Hi John,

Thanks for your reply. Indeed it will be very interesting to see Ginni's reply if/when you manage to get one (let's hope she reads her email eventually).

I was contacted by email just now by Kris, he says that he has some non export Bohemia marks so perhaps he will post them for us here. I shall ask him.

Cheers
Don


"Much that once was, is lost, for none now live who remember it"

Galadriel, LotR.
#206280 10/31/2007 06:29 PM
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Gentlemen,

Dennis Porell has posted some comments on this topic on another forum. The link is provided below:

Porell Comments on Allach Bohemia Vase

Best regards,

John

#206281 11/01/2007 06:06 AM
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Hi John1919,

Not saying it's good or bad but needs to be researched further. I do like it and I'm certainly glad that you decided to show this unique double mark/vase to the collecting community. Without individuals like yourself willing to show their finds, we wouldn't learn much would we or learn anything new.

This a very interesting double mark to say the least. Normally double marks are seperate and normally are a varient mark or a similar mark from the same manufacturer. Normally manufactures don't like their mark defaced or messed with, without permission. Strange things happen when the human hand gets involved.

I wish you much joy with this unigue piece and please dig into the history of Bohemia Ceramic and let us know what you find. Here is another cool mark from Bohemia Ceramic.

BOHEMIA-MARK.jpg (65.42 KB, 289 downloads)
#206282 11/01/2007 02:03 PM
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Hello Mikee,

Thank you very much for your nice comments.

In response, I had a couple more thoughts:

1) The overstamping of Bohemia onto Allach stamp might actually have been an early (transitional) attempt to fabricate a prototype (or just early) wartime Bohemia mark similar in style to that you posted. If the vase was one of the first pieces produced by Bohemia under SS authority, it could be Bohemia was improvising creating the Bohemia wartime mark by overstamping the two marks until the actual Bohemia wartime mark printing stamps were either approved or fabricated. Interestingly, the runes on the vase have been positioned in the vicinity of the center of the big Bohemia "B" in a manner similar to that on the wartime mark.

2) By the time the vase was fabicated it might be that the politics of Bohemia company overstamping Allach's mark might have been greatly simplified as the SS had operational control of both Allach and Bohemia after mid-1939.

3) Alternatively, as Dennis Porell suggests in his post, the overlapping of the stamps might have been considered a flaw and the vase actually did not leave the factory until the factory was liberated by the Allies.

Thank you again for your kind words and thoughtful comments!

Best regards,

John

#206283 03/21/2008 05:31 PM
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A while back I purchased Gabriele Huber’s Allach book (German language).
Since receiving it I have (with the kind assistance of friends who speak
fluent German) initially reviewed the books discussion of the relationship
between the expansion of Allach (PMA), the relationship Allach between
Bohemia, etc.

Interestingly, Huber states on page 37:

“Dabei war das Verhältnis zwischen PMA und Bohemia prima facie nicht ganz
eindeutig, Innerhalb der DWB bzw. des HAVW hat die PMA ebenso wie die
Bohemia die Stellung einer Tochtergesellschaft bzw. bilden beide ein
gemeinsames Amt; gleichzeitig stellt sich die PMA "im Innenverhältnis" als
Hauptunternehmen dar, dem in der Bohemia gewissermaßen eine "Filiale" zur
Verfügung steht. So wird beim Abschluß der Übernahme der Bohemie- Aktien im
Monatsbericht der PMA für Mai 1940 vermerkt: "Der Betrieb in Neurohlau
[Bohemia] wurde am 16.5.1940 übernommen”; ebenso vermittelte die
Geschäftsführung der PMA Großaufträge an die Bohemia - etwa
Kantinengeschirre - wie in den Geschäftsprüfungsberichten 1940/41 belegt,
und überließ ihr "Mutterformen für Vasen" zur Herstellung”

This text indicates that in 1940 Allach (PMA) provided “mother forms for
vases” to Bohemia. To date, this is the only reference I have found in
Huber’s (or any other book) book to Allach providing its molds to Bohemia
(or any other porcelain factory). Huber cites a reference to the document
NS 3/vorl281 (Werkbericht des Amtes III B für Januar 1940) to substantiate
this information.

Interestingly, Huber’s text and this reference is VERY specific to Allach
providing VASE (and, by inference, possibly only vase) molds to Bohemia on,
or before, 1940. I have not yet been able to determine if the full
connotation of the word “mutterformen” in German might extend to include
molded, but unfinished (undecorated) pieces. Irrespective of the exact
latitude of the meaning of “mutterformen”, Huber’s book and the
corresponding cited contemporary German document unequivocally indicates
that Allach and Bohemia had a very specific (and possibly unique)
relationship to cooperate to JOINTLY produce vases for the SS.
Given this
additional information, at least for me, it is not much of a stretch to
conclude that Allach and Bohemia, at least in the beginning, cooperated
closely to jointly produce prototype or presentation examples of vases.
Moreover, I think it is fair to also infer that despite Bohemia’s acquiring
“Mutterformen für Vasen" from Allach, Bohemia never produced (or finished)
vases using Allach mold designs on a large scale as otherwise other
surviving examples of “Allach Bohemia” vases would have come to light.

The above text from Huber’s book also indicates that there seemed to, at
least initially, some confusion regarding the corporate relationship between
Allach and Bohemia. Accordingly, it seems that Allach producing vases that
might be finished (decorated) at Bohemia might have been a business model
that the SS explored through limited joint production of prototype vases,
etc. that was abandoned as the definition of Allach’s and Bohemia’s became
better defined.

#206284 07/05/2008 05:18 AM
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John1919,
I love to read stuff like this..Good research and great information. Thank you and great job.

#206285 07/09/2008 04:12 AM
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This is never a German III Reich area art syle vase at all and would be the first overstamped logo with Allach that I have ever seen too, whats anyhow the sence to overstamp it? Only facts are counting and the points like 2) Piece was purchased from a porcelain dealer in Germany who does NOT ... 3) Item was NOT sold as a rare item ... are absolute worthless.

#206286 07/09/2008 02:21 PM
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Robert,

We all know EVERYBODY has an opinion.

In the field of Allach porcelain, I (and, I would venture to say, most people) value the opinions of people with extensive expertise and experience in the field (Kris Lindblom, Dennis Porell, Robin Lumsden, etc.) more than people who just get on a forum and state an opinion without any fact (and who also don't apparently read the available literature, i.e. Gabriele Huber’s Allach book). In this regard, perhaps you should re-read the thread itself. The conclusion that the vase is authentic is based upon the TOTALITY of the arguments, not any single argument.

Specifically, you state: "This is never a German III Reich area art syle vase at all..."

Just after purchasing the vase, I showed photos of the vase to a German friend of mine who conducts research in art history at a German university and has written many books on the topic. I asked him for his opinion of the style and authenticity of this Allach Bohemia vase. This is what he wrote:

"the vase is produced in a very common style of the german thirtees, a look in "Die Schaulade" offers that a lot of factories produced vases of this kind (also in stripes like the other allach vases, very common in these days, the allach production (stripes) were a kind of "modern" (in the sense of the nazis, yes, you are reading right, the nazi-modernism and the bauhaus-modernism where NOT very different in the eyes of the people of the thirties, OF COURSE, the SPIRIT behind were VERY DIFFERENT). An Example: the work of dr. hermann gretsch, very modern, but not in the sense of the bauhaus-style....

Art Deco it is for me the wrong term, because in germany we use it more for products from france and england in the thirtees and a central aspect: art deco items are often produced for rich people, very luxury etc., in a special way: the decoration of your UNUSAL VASE is very usual."

Are YOU also a Professor of German art history?

We all know you have an OPINION. Now please state your FACTS. Or move on, like the rest of us.

Best regards,

John

#206287 07/09/2008 04:35 PM
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There will be always a difference in seeing art and knowing art. Your German friend is right with the art time frame, but Allach did not made their Art in that way. I know Gabrieles book very well and also got it several times in the past.

Anyhow be happy with it when you like it.
And you know Germans love also German art as it is a part of their culture, also please say greetings to Kris next time.

#206288 07/09/2008 07:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert H.:
Your German friend is right with the art time frame, but Allach did not made their Art in that way.


Robert,

Yes, I think EVERYONE agrees that this vase was NOT decorated in the typical style of Allach but RATHER in the typical style of Bohemia Ceramic Works.

But this fact strengthens, not weakens, the case for the veracity of the vase as a bona fida Allach/Bohemia cooperative effort and the accompanying presence of BOTH makers' marks.

As Dennis Porell comments in the link referenced earlier in this thread: "Now we have two entities, Allach known for it's porcelain and Bohemia which is known for it's cut glass artistry. Obviously there had to be a transition phase between the two manufacturers. This particular Vase has both of the makers markings as well as the manufacturing strengths of both companies, porcelain and cut decorations. Allach had never made this type of decoration before so it is plausible that this Vase has the combined artistry of both manufacturers during this early transitional period." (emphasis is mine)

Best regards,

John

#206289 07/09/2008 07:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John1919:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert H.:
Your German friend is right with the art time frame, but Allach did not made their Art in that way.


Robert,

Yes, I think EVERYONE agrees that this vase was NOT decorated in the typical style of Allach but RATHER in the typical style of Bohemia Ceramic Works.

But this fact strengthens, not weakens, the case for the veracity of the vase as a bona fida Allach/Bohemia cooperative effort and the accompanying motivation for the presence of BOTH makers' marks (which are, interestingly, overlapped in such as a manner as provide a composite marking which stongly resembles the eventually adopted makers' mark of Bohemia under SS ownership).

As Dennis Porell comments in the link referenced earlier in this thread: "Now we have two entities, Allach known for it's porcelain and Bohemia which is known for it's cut glass artistry. Obviously there had to be a transition phase between the two manufacturers. This particular Vase has both of the makers markings as well as the manufacturing strengths of both companies, porcelain and cut decorations. Allach had never made this type of decoration before so it is plausible that this Vase has the combined artistry of both manufacturers during this early transitional period." (emphasis is mine)

Best regards,

John

#206290 07/09/2008 08:52 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by John1919:
But this fact strengthens, not weakens, the case for the veracity of the vase as a bona fida Allach/Bohemia cooperative effort and the accompanying motivation for the presence of BOTH makers' marks (which are, interestingly, overlapped in such as a manner as provide a composite marking which stongly resembles the eventually adopted makers' mark of Bohemia under SS ownership).
/QUOTE]

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