UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Grips attributed to certain makers.

I just went through a discussion with a collector regarding identifying, "parts daggers". There are many ways of identifying these pieces. An educated buyer knows what to look for. In particular I thought it might be useful to discuss grips that are absolutely attributed to makers. Some grip wires for example were only used by certain makers. I thought this might be a useful thread for all of us. Please feel free to add to this thread we are all here to learn.

Tiger 2nd Luft:

C&J

Klaas Funeral:

Klaas Woody:

GREAT stuff there Paul!
Thanks for sharing! Klass just could not make up their minds on grip material could they?

Rich Herder - twisted brass wire on this example, but variations can be seen as parts were bought in from other suppliers.

Yes Degens Nice Herder. What I am attempting here is to document grips that unquestionably we only used by one maker.

Reverse Holler:

BTW Holler is the only maker who used the springy type wire:

Hey Guys

Great thread here. I have a question about a holler i own. I have owned one in the past and it had the classic springy wire on it. I recently purchased this navy at the max show, and it doesn't have the classic spring wire on it. The pommel hasn't been turned at all. Would like to know what you guys think.

Thanks Spencer for your post. I can not make a judgment on your dagger from what I see rather I will speak in generalities. Here's what I was trying to say:
In my experience no one but Holler used this brass springy type wire on their Navy daggers. Were I to see this wire on any dagger but a Holler I would suspect it's a parts dagger. Same goes for the reverse twist Holler grip shown above.
As to your question, When I see any grip wire other than the springy copper wire on a Holler I wonder if the wire is a replacement. It's just a question I ask. See, the brass replacement wire is widely available. The springy copper wire is not, at least not that I know of. Did Holler use a double wire similar to the other guys? I don't know for sure. Perhaps some more experienced guys can speak to this. Lots of funky things happened as production came to an end. Companies were sharing parts and if Holler run out of wire I have no doubt they sent somebody down the street to borrow some grip wire from the competition. I guess I would see that wire as a reason to look a bit harder at the piece.
Help me out here guys. I think this is a very relevant topic. There are lots more examples. Pack Navy dagger too had a specific grip wire. I'll check my archives....

My Pack-Pictured in the navy book

Nice PAck Navy Tom. The rest of the dagger is classic holler. Any one elese out there have a Holler with this type of wire.

It seems that PACK has loved the tripple tristed wired grips on several of their daggers .
Regards,

@ spencer victory: It does not seem impossible to me that H�LLER has bought some of these yellow grips (I personally believe in intended light yellow manufactured grips), already wired, from any other firm which would explain the different wire.
PS.: This dagger once came from Pvon and if I had seen the dagger for sale before the collector who finally had bought it I would have bought it myself .
Regards.

I think what I see is that certain grip wire configurations are attributed to given manufacturers rather than the grip itself.

Great detail and intersting new info.

I have to agree with Wotan about the possibility of components being bought and sold amoungst the Solingen makers. In one of TJs books there are some invoices documenting this.

Daev

An interesting thread. While the wood grips are a question mark (?) - there is no question that the molded phenolic grips for the combat bayonets were purchased from outside suppliers. Which included Clemen und Jung, R. Herder, E. Pack, F.W. H�ller etc. The point being that besides sales amongst dagger makers, the use of outside suppliers should not be discounted versus makers manufacturing grips themselves. FP

Fred can you clarify:
1- Wood grips are a question mark? I don't understand what you mean? That they are atributted to a maker or that they are real?
2- I expect that grips were purchased from outside suppliers and in my opinion, were wire wrapped in-house. Were there exceptions? Of course, as there is with just about everything in this hobby.
The point of the thread is that many grips have characteristics that point to specific makers. It is useful for collectors to know these characteristics. If we just write off discussions because there are exceptions, we would have little to talk about!

Paul, For molded products the Materialpr�frungsanstalt Berlin-Dahlem assigned maker codes to identify makers and the materials used. From the codes seen all of the blade makers I mentioned used outside suppliers for the Bakelite grips cited. None of them made them in-house.

The point I was trying to get across with the the wood grips was that they could have been done in-house, but they also very easily could have been made by outside suppliers. There is some evidence that some of the early wood grips on combat items were made in-house, but it�s not universally conclusive. Likewise late wood grips from multiple makers seem to be closer to a uniform product with one or two minor exceptions which suggests possibly a single or limited number of sources. And the late Bakelite grips also seem to indicate a more limited number of sources. Unless there is some kind of identifiable characteristic like a marking, tool marks, etc. it�s largely a guessing game with the more specimens examined the better that the guess will will be.

During the Imperial era material shortages also forced changes in grip materials - so the idea of a large number of variations especially for later daggers has a significant precedent. There is no compelling reason that a company or companies turning the already cast phenolic rods could not also have installed the grip wire and sold them as completed units. What I would be looking for is grips of dissimilar materials from a specific maker. If the dissimilar grips have identical wiring then I think that it improves the chances of proving that the wiring was done in-house.

PS: I like the technical discussions which are IMO a great help to collectors. If I have a regret it�s that when I started collecting there was a lack of information which could have helped greatly in making the right choices in what to buy and what to stay away from. Best Regards, FP

hi
Here a grip Eickhorn made

grip

..

Fred many thanks for your comments. I tend to agree that in most cases the grips would have been supplied from outside. In my experience though the grips were wired inhouse. Hence the ability to identify who produced a dagger by looking at the grip. I know that exceptions exist. If we don't agree that's fine it won't be the 1st time.
Janjan that is a nice example of an ivory grip. BTW my opinion holds true with ivory as well I believe in most cases the grips were purchased in and wired inhouse.