UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Runes button question

On a early ss officer degen,how can you tell if the rune button is the type that is pinned through the tang (other than taking it apart)?
Thanks

Usually, the pinned type will have a bit of wiggle, but no always. The glued type are found on the "Dachau" ("Muller") type swords, which may also have pinned buttons.

Sorry, Dean, my response above is incomplete. You can remove the pommel cap. If the grip does not slide off with a little pressure, the insignia is likely pinned through the tang. The very early "Krebs" swords are not pinned, although the later ones are. Most early swords have caps on the end of the tang, which should not be tampered with. The caps prevent removal of the grip. The very early "Krebs" examples have nuts on the tang end that can be easily removed. However, in my experience, these types have insignia attached to the grip and they are not pinned through the tang. As a general rule, the earlier SS swords, save the very early "Krebs" models, will have pinned insignia.

Thanks for responding Grumpy.

The sword in question has the 1st style Krebs maker mark.

Once the pommel caps off there appears to be a nut over the tang's end but I dont want to mess with turning it (plus looks like you'd need a specialized tool for this).

So is it a safe bet to assume the rune button is the type attatched to the grip and not pinned?

Also,is this type supposed to have the protective cap as this one does not?

Can you tell me if the assembly on your Krebs is the same and does it have the cap?

Thanks, Dean

I have a very early Krebs. It is the type with the "police badge" trademark and squared off handguard. All fittings, hilt and scabbard, are nickel-silver. Even the screws are nickel-silver. The whole thing is held together with two tang nuts. They are odd looking things, thick with heavy slots on either side of the threaded holes. The bottom one does the work and it appears the top one acts as a lock nut. There is no tang hole and the emblem is attached directly to the grip. I also have an early "no maker mark" example. That one has the tang cap you describe. This type almost always has the emblem pinned through the tang. The only way to determine that for sure is to remove the cap and try to take the hilt down. If the tang is pinned through, you will not be able to remove the grip without seriously doing some damage. This also usually results in destroying the cap, so is not recommended. I understand replacement caps can be found, but I would leave well enough alone. If the cap appears to be undisturbed, it is all but certain the emblem is pinned through the tang. This is a positive sign and should mean the hilt has not been disasembled to replace the grip with a fake or altered SS one. Police swords do not have this feature. The Dachau or Muller degens are taken down like a police degen. You simply remove the pommel cap and the grip assembly slides off the tang. These swords can have the emblem pinned on, though not through the tang, or glued on.

Grumpy-
Thanks for the good comparison information.

Sounds like a early Krebs like the one I'm asking about.

I was'nt aware there were 2 sloted tang nuts though as I can't see past the first one.
Did you discover there were 2 after taking the first one off?

Is this non-pinned early 1st makers mark Krebs textbook in not having a protective cap.

I was under the impression that ALL ss officer degens(except Dachau)were supposed to have this cap.Is this early Krebs model with lock-down nuts a exception?

Thanks, Dean

It has long been said that all early SS degens should have the capped tang. Most do. However, the earliest Krebs models do not. Yes, I removed the first nut to find the second because I erroneously had believed the "conventional wisdom" about the caps. At first, I thought I had bought a sword that had been monkeyed with. I was relieved to find no tang hole and that the emblem is held to the grip wires by clips.

Grumpy-
I'm very glad to hear this,as I thought the same thing you did.
I appreciate your knowledge and sharing your experience about your degen so I won't have to go thru the same thing.
I always wondered why there would be a cap there if it served no purpose.
Have you compared this issue against any other early 1st m.m. Krebs square guard ss officer degens?
Thanks for the valuable info. Dean

No. Mine is the only one I have seen, other than photos in books. A few months ago I read or saw a description of a similar degen that described the grip securing as we have discussed. It is my opinion only, but I suspect the cap and pinned-through emblem were added as a kind of "security device" to prevent removal of the grip. It seems to me to have been impractical and almost bizarre to secure the emblem through the tang. There had to have been a specific motive for doing so. Given the special status of the degen, it was probably decided by Himmler or someone under him that the honor degen would not be tampered with without causing serious damage.

Maybe there are some others who own the early Krebs w/1st makers mark that could describe if their degen has the lock downs as mentioned or do their examples have the protective cap in place.
I know of another example like the one described above.I'll try to send a p.m. for comparison, and if sucessful, will post the response.

I know on mine there is no room for a cap once the nuts are secured. The pin through the tang method could also have been a result of the emblems falling off or being knocked off. It does not appear to be the best method of securing the button (clipping it to the wire). Considering the almost "holy" nature of the runes and the degen, Krebs may have 'overkilled' on securing the button after one or more was lost and upon complaint from the SS higher up's. My particu;ar sword is a vet bring back {bought it from his daughter}, uncleaned and in very nice condition. It took quite a bit of effort to remove the pommel cap. I could see no sign of tampering. If there was any, it would have had to have beeen long, long ago, the patina being undisturbed throughout. I think the lack of a tang hole in itself is pretty good evidence there never was a button secured through the tang on these very early Krebs examples.

Here's the response to the question regarding if there was a protective cap by a owner of a 1st m.m. early krebs ss officer degen that was nice enough to help out.

quote:

Originally posted by pvluger:
"Ok Dean, I was able to get home early today. I was hoping to take a picture but I cant find my camera. In any case, what I see on the top of the tang is what I think you mean by "The nut". I cant see around the nut but I THINK its threaded? and sits flush and flat with the top on the tang. It has two trapizoidial shaped groove cutouts, one on each side of the nut. Anything similar to yours?

So that makes 3 early 1st m.m. Krebs ss officer swords that I know of,all w/o protective cap.
If there are any other owners of this 'type' please describe if this situation is textbook on your example.

Thanks for the help.

Hi Dean,

i have an early SS Officer Degen by Krebs in very good condition.Bought last year directly from the vet's family .Cap is present.

Hi TOBAU-
Thanks for posting your input on this issue.

Can I ask if the Krebs degen your referring to has the 1st or 2nd style makers mark?

What are your thoughts on the 1st m.m. Krebs that don't have this cap?

Also, can you describe what is the situation supposed to be under this protective cap(is there a lock nut assembly or what holds the tang in place)?

Thanks for helping.

Gents,

I have an early Krebs SS-Off Degen with the scalloped lobster shield TM that has the protective cap present. I have had this sword since the 1960s.

For info, those with caps have the cap there to cover a nut that holds the grip securely. The reverse of the runes button has a hairpin-like device attached. The pins are pushed through the grip and through a hole in the tang. The pins are then spread apart, securing the grip to the tang. The nut helps prevent looseness and "wiggle" in the grip. To remove all of this, the cap must be pried off and the nut removed. Then, it takes brute force to pull the pins loose out of the tang to allow the grip to be removed. Obviously, the cap should be left alone and no effort should be made to force the grip off the tang. The very early types, as discussed, have a nut securing the grip, with a second lock-nut on top of the first nut.This double nut system secures the grip quite nicely. As noted, these swords have no tang hole and the button is affixed to the grip only. I doubt that trademark type alone delineates whether there is an original cap or not. It would appear the "two nut system" was short-lived, being quickly replaced by the "cap system." The original-to-the-sword short officer's portepee on mine has a tag dated 1935.

Orpo-
Thanks for your input.
So, in trying to make sense of the protective cap issue I'm wondering what's right or wrong with this style degen.Were there some manufactured without a cap?
Plus do these capped Krebs examples have the same type of harware securing the tang as the examples without the cap.
Are both types textbook but just different variations of manufacture or is there something wrong if the cap is not present on this particular type?
Thanks for any information on this.

Grumpy-
Besides the hole in the tang and the pinned runes button,am I understanding correctly that your saying there are 2 different hardware set ups under the pommel for these degens and not just the same type of hardware with the addition of a protective cap?

Yes. They are all but totally different. It appears the earliest degens have no tang hole and two nuts to secure the grip. Although still of earlier manufacture, the "Krebs" examples mostly seen have the cap and tang hole attachment arrangement. The earliest Krebs, at least some, have the squared off handguard, rather than the rounded type. Again, the one I have has all nickel-silver fittings, including the screws. Also, it has a built-in "step fitting" without the screw-in type of step fitting seen on most early swords. The original owner was an SS-Standardenfuhrer and his initials are beautifully engraved on the pommel cap. This degen appears to have never been cleaned and has a nice, even patina throughout.The 1935 dated portepee and presentation date aid in establishing the early manufacture of the sword.

My Krebs has the early all nickel fittings as well as the squared D guard. I am not certain of what/where the step fitting is. I hope this info is helpful.

Thanks Grumpy for clearing up some info that I had no clue about.

It seems your therory on securing these runes buttons more securly with a pinned through tang method to avoid loose or lost highly regarded runes buttons would make some good sense to me.

The issue about protective caps vs. no protective cap always confused me also and I appreciate you helping to shed some light on the subject as no reference books seemed to have any detailed information on this.

Out of curiosity,did you ever get your degen belonging to the Standartenfuhrer researched?

Dean

The "step fitting" is the area directly beneath the pommel cap. Most earlier SS swords have one that is removable, but it cannot be removed due to the tang cap. If you remove the pommel cap, the fitting can be "jiggled" or turned a bit, if the tang cap is in place. The example I have has a "built-in" step, that is, it is cast into the upper part of the handguard, as is seen on police swords.

Dean, I guess you could say I had it partially researced by Bernie Brule. Thankfully, the owner's initials are very unusual and were immediately narrowed down to two individuals. Bernie was able to eliminate one, due to a number of factors. I have not had him thoroughly researched, but did some "light" research on my own. I was fortunate to find out quite a bit about him and even have a couple of photos of him. He was one of the "old guard" and somewhat brutish in appearance. I suspect his rise in the SS was due mostly to his having been an early member with connections.

ORPO-
Your information is very helpful as it gives other examples to compare with.
I appreciate your time and effort in helping out.
I believe the step fitting is the area on top of the D guard that your pommel cap screws into.
From what I understand these can either be seperate fittings or built directly into the cast of the D guard.
You can see a pretty decent photo of this on bottom of page 352 in Tom Wittmanns SS book.

Yes, the early Krebs models came with both removable and built-in "step" fittings, Dean. As you note, Wittman's SS book has photos of both types. I don't know why the "two nuts" secured types haven't been described, but suspect they are rarely seen. They undoubtedly exist. Maybe Tom can address this if he writes a follow-up SS book (hope he does).

Grumpy-
Sounds like a real nice degen that has alot going for it.All the better to know who it belonged to and that he was "old guard".

Thanks for the explanation of the different step fittings guys. My sword has the integral step fitting it seems.

I am aware about two emblem attachment styles, one is the nail style and the other one is the two-prong style on the SS F�hrerdegen. The Degen with the protective cap has normally two screws and the protective cap (in German it is named "Z�ndpille") is on top from the upper nut. Maybe I am wrong but for my view all Junkerschule awarded Degen have this protective cap. I have also one very early example without this cap.

Robert, you may be right about the school awarded degens having the cap. The recipient of the one I have discussed was already an SS officer and had been a while prior to his receiving the degen.

For checking the Rune's Emblem mode of attachment, I have found that the safest & most reliable method is to X-Ray the grip from a couple of angles - almost always shows the type of metal (or lack of) attachment.

All you have to do is know your local Doctor / Dentist / Vet who is also a TR collector, and you'll get it done OK. Dave/dblmed

Ignore.Made in error

Great Idea dblmed.
Thanks for sharing it.

This has been a super topic as I have an early degen without the cap. Thanks for fueling it up Dean!

I have a plated ss degen with the second style krebs trade mark. The pomel nut unscrews the same as the police sword but it cannot be striped down. The runes button is pinned through the tang. Has anyone seen this configeration on a plated sword before. Most other plated degens can be striped down when the pomel is removed.

I'm not familiar with such, bit it's interesting to hear about it. I would guess it was made in the late "early" period, about the time the police swords were introduced and before the Dachau forge took over the majority, if not all, of the SS/police sword production. I have always thought there are "legit" plated maker-marked swords, other than the Dachau types.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
It has long been said that all early SS degens should have the capped tang. Most do. However, the earliest Krebs models do not. Yes, I removed the first nut to find the second because I erroneously had believed the "conventional wisdom" about the caps. At first, I thought I had bought a sword that had been monkeyed with. I was relieved to find no tang hole and that the emblem is held to the grip wires by clips.

Hy Grumpy,

where do you know that the earlyst SS Leader Degens do not have a cap and why ?
OK,in my archive i have a similar Degen as Deans Degen and there is not a cap too !But this degen is denazified.However,your opinion is a technical and can be correct as there !
The early Krebs-Logo Degens are all in nickel,the second logo mostly found in steel-nickel plated.I mean Deans Degen are complete right here.

As earlier mentioned, I acquired an early sword similar to Dean's, at least externally. I have no idea what Dean's looks like under the grip. My sword was acquired from the vet's daughter and has never been cleaned, based on its appearance. All hilt and scabbard fittings are nickel-silver, including the screws. The top of the tang has no cap. The pommel screws down on the tang like most police swords. There is no hole in the tang to accomodate the "pin through" SS button, as commonly seen on early SS officer swords. The button is attached to the grip wires by two clips on the back of the button. The sword came complete with a short SS portepee with a 1935 dated cloth tag. It also has initials engraved on the top of the pommel cap, which are attributed to an early SS officer, who rose to high rank. I am only reporting what my degen looks like under the grip. I have a second one with the tang cap (no maker). I only know what I see on the first degen mentioned. It is real and it is made the way it is. I cannot explain further, other than to note this degen is of very early manufacture with the Krebs "police badge" logo and "squarish" handguard. I would speculate the tang cap may have been added to production early on in order to prevent the removing of the grip without damage, for reasons only known to the SS at the time. If you have further questions, I'll be happy to reply. I hope this information is of help.

On the topic of grip runes buttons, the late '60's/early '70's repro degens have the grip button which is simply pressed into the plastic/celluloid type grips recess hole. When popped out one will see the reverse side of the button is crude and clearly indicates the button was cast, and cast poorly. I may have some photos of this somewhere since I had owned one of these in the past.

Didn't mean to digress. A guy in Reno has a seemingly never ending supply of these earlier repro degens.

All of my swords are the early nickel-silver types and all have the 'Cap' covering the two set screws to the blade tang.

I would highly suspect that all SS officer swords originally had these 'caps' over the set screws for a specific and intended purpose and any swords absent of these caps may have had them removed post war or by U.S. G.I.'s looking for the preverbal German diamonds hidden in the handles.

I�m not casting any aspersions against SS swords not having these caps where these are only my thoughts with no substantive information.

To get an expert or more definitive answer, I believe that Tom Wittmann would be the go to person in these regards.

Out of curiosity, how would one determine how the runes button is attached to the handle with out opening the sword and removing the handle? (I am too much the purist and not brave enough to venture therein!)

b