UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Names, Documents, Photos and Translation Forum Sword Blade Inscription

Why do you try to jump on people so hard,JR ? We don't need this. It don't get answers, just anger. Ask Donnie.

Joe

OK Joe, I'll tame it down for you especially; and use some more please's, thank you's, and get more on the touchy feely side of discussions. More of what you would like to see, Sir ?? The tamed down JR ?

I like the regular JR.

Mark

The wording without any doubt should be
"Treuer Heinrich. Es wird dir gelingen .....! Adolf Hitler" (one word before the "!" is missing, I cannot read it how hard I try).
Transl.: (my) Loyal Heinrich (prenom of H.H.). You will succeed ....! A.H."
No question about that it SHOULD BE A.H.´s signature! You might discuss if it conforms but no discussion that it "should be".
A better pic of the section "Heinrich" perhaps would help as there are letters and combinations included which I assume to see also in the missing word.
As I am (beside other respectable members) doing here requested hard work I think of having the right also to give a statement about the overall of the blade and inscription: For my personal opinion and due to my experience from decades of collecting these item does not conform in quality to doubtless period items I have seen. The writing itself in certain details does not conform to what I have seen of doubtless A.H. hand-writings. Although I would not be astonished to see this certain writing (hand writing or faximile of hand writing) perhaps in any book or so. Nevertheless the "character" of the writing is quite different (each person who has done in hand writings easily knows what I mean). This also could be a result of unskilled transformation of the original writing to etching (which I personally mostly assume is). In my humble opinion this transformation was done by a person who had not the least knowledge on "Kurrent"-script (which it is) and could only transform the lining so so without knowing WHAT he is transforming. Therefore also the big difficulties in reading.
As we are a living forum even in these special segments (here "translation") I think we members have the right to express an experienced opinion and lead a disciplined discussion.
Just my thoughts. If I am wrong, please tell me.
Regards,

It is now my serious assumption that the missing word is "siegreich!" (transl: "victoriously") which
1.) would come next to how it (truely) is written in Kurrent-script
2.) would make sense and
3.) fully does conform to my personal statements about the whole thing.
Regards,

I suppose any member has his "right" to express himself on any topic. In the broad view, that is fine, but there is a time and place for everything and there are such things as respect, courtesy and common sense in expressing one's opinions. I will reiterate the purpose of my inquiry was to obtain a translation. Nothing more, nothing less. This is the translation forum, after all. I don't give a hoot about opinions on this sword. Opinions are cheap and even the lowest moron can have an opinion. Even "learned" opinions can and do vary. It is always easy to criticize, even out of ignorance, jealousy or other reasons, such as demonstrating one's vast and superior knowledge, which may, in fact, be just the opposite. Wotan, I appreciate what you have added, as far as the translation is concerned. I also appreciate what appears to be your belated interest in the topic. When I first sought help, it appeared from your post that you were not that interested and a bit irritated by it. No more photos of, or other information on, this sword will be posted here or elsewhere on the site. I will happily share information privately with those with a genuine and objective interest. Opinions are welcome when sought. I will make no further comment here. That is my right.

quote:

The wording without any doubt should be
"Treuer Heinrich. Es wird dir gelingen .....! Adolf Hitler" (one word before the "!" is missing, I cannot read it how hard I try).

( I'm doing a little bow and curtsey for joeblow personally, as I type this post)

Cliff, since the sword is off limits for discussion, and opinions are basically nothing, you've asked for one thing initially......... the translation of the etch.

Wotan has given you that in his translation above. He discusses and is familar with Kurrent script. From the German language, the inscription doesn't make sense as even words are missing from the text. I think that this and only this were we allowed to comment on, and that's what he gave you.

With regards and respect the new kinder gentler........... JR

Grumpy, I am glad you appreciate the (now full) inscription (of one side) and it´s translation.
Be sure that it is not my intention to to make anything good bad. When I make a statement (and naturally all of us can make a mistake) I do it carefully and with respect. It should HELP the current owner or the potent buyer to make any decision not to slam any item.
I understand your fear quite well, it HAS happened more than once that an good item has been corrupted during discussion. I hope you also understand my point of view.
There also might be high interest even it LOOKS belated .

Wotan, good job in deciphering this hard riddle .. and I really hate to raise some new questions ... but I have some:

#1
Do you think this sentence does make sense in German language:

"Treuer Heinrich! Es wird dir gelingen siegreich!"
(Loyal Heinrich! You will succeed victoriously!)

To me the order of words in the second part is not correct for German language. The correct order should be: "Es wird dir siegreich gelingen!" Don´t you think?

#2
What is your opinion? But the letters "d" from the word "wird" and "dir" look to me quite different? Look at the picture "Number 2".

Sorry for raising these questions and for maybe continuing this discussion.

You should take and rub a tube of semichrome over the blade to clean it up a bit, hell grab a wire wheel and go over it to smooth out the etching. Just can't read it in this state, i would expect anything that bares himmlers or hitlers name on a sword like this to be true damascus, with an easily legible name so you could show it off to your buddys. Did you get an inspection period? get us some more pics that are clearer.

... not good enough photos for me. Last 2 words are maybe in German "jemandem zuwink!"
(zugewinkt). Very very strange etching surface when the name AH is included...

For english-german translation on the side I can recommend:
http://dict.leo.org/?lang=de&lp=ende

Please send me better and larger photos to: robertcollectibles@gmx.net

Right now I am sitting in CA and have not the time to work on it, coming weekend I can work on it.

With all due respect I don’t know that I would use Simichrome to clean the blade. While it’s abrasive is very finely divided, I've seen too many etched blades where the frosting was removed by abrasive polishing. Also, sprayed on nitric acid? I’ve seen shallow etches on a number of items. But the idea of pressurized nitric acid being atomized while forced through a nozzle does make me wonder how the operator survived to spray again? FP

Fred:
I'm pretty sure Roy was being facetious here! If he was being serious he'd have recommended soaking it in beer overnite!
Jim

ivbaust,
Grumpy, as the owner of the blade does not want it discussed. Beside a general statement in the intention to help him in any decision that might come, I do respect the wish of the owner. Therefore I answered and explained detailed per PM.
But I want to emphasize in public that I am sure about the text and I hold on my personal opinion mentioned.
Regards,

I know I am renegging on my earlier statement, but I feel further comment is appropriate. First, I again thank those who were helpful in the translation. Second, I was told by Don Swanson, a master restorer of edged weapons and extremely knowledgeable about how they were produced, about the spraying technique. I do believe he knows a good deal about etching. Certainly, that helps explain the shallow etch on later examples. Third, have you noticed that nearly every comment in this thread, except those directly involved with the translation, are negative, challenging and/or, a few, smarmy? That is why some are reluctant to post photos, ask questions, etc., on this site. This has been said many times before. I made it clear early on I simply wanted help with the translation and did not care to hear opinions otherwise. If I wanted opinions, I would have asked for them or posted a request elsewhere and shown the entire sword. I do not object to the observations of wotan and others as regards the nature of the inscription, questionable aspects, etc. I agree that goes with the translation and, I think is desirable. I made it clear there are several possibilities regarding it, including questions regarding authenticity of the etch, etc. Fourth, I will note sword blades with "script" inscriptions are all but unheard of. Usually, any writing on them is in printed or block letters, as is the writing on the obverse of this blade. Check TW's SS book for examples. While you are at it, note there are presentation blades there pertaining to SS higher up's with very "Plain Jane" inscriptions and dedications. As far as damascus, I again would state this is a later blade. The Dachau forge was running on empty and damascus was probably all but out of the question. The occasion may well have not called for more than as represented. Fifth, I think it unreasonable to assume Hitler sat down and wrote out an inscription to precisely fit the blade. The etcher practically had to enlarge whatever he was given to work with. It may have been written by Hitler or one of his assistants. I doubt the Fuhrer would have given a lot of time and thought to a project of this nature, especially later on. If you receive something from a high politician or celebrity today, you can just about bet it was signed with an auto pen or someone trained to imitate his signature. When I was in the FBI, there were several at headquarters who signed Hoover's signature dozens of times a day in fountain pen and no one knew the difference. Sixth, why put the Hitler inscription on the blade at all? Seems a lot of unnecessary trouble when Himmler's name prominently appears in the etching on the other side of the blade. There are other aspects that are attractive about it, as well, without the inscription. Seventh, the sword is obviously old, needed some light work and was bought for a very low price. Not the kind of thing a scammer would deceive someone over for tens of thousands of dollars. So, that's about it. Think what you will. Criticize, mostly in ignorance, if you must. I'm sure some would grind off the inscription to make it "correct." I will not. I like this old sword and consider something special. As Forrest Gump would say: "That's all I have to say about that."

Grumpy, Regarding: “Second, I was told by Don Swanson, a master restorer of edged weapons and extremely knowledgeable about how they were produced, about the spraying technique. I do believe he knows a good deal about etching. Certainly, that helps explain the shallow etch on later examples.”

Having etched blades from the very early mid 19th century into the postwar period and some technical background. I would respectfully suggest that it is more a function of time and the concentration of the acid which affects the depth of the etching. Not the method of application. And while it’s difficult to see, I’ve seen other examples that resemble this kind of etching. But that is not something that you want to discuss. And I am here to help not argue.

For Wotan and Ivbaust: Here is image # 2 cleaned up as best I could. And inverted in the hope that that the inscription can be seen more easily. FP

Sure, the depth of the etch depends upon the length of time the metal is exposed to the acid. It could be dipped or otherwise. Later etches seem to be much more shallow than earlier ones. That alone does not mean the acid was sprayed. Don simply pointed out the spraying technique was used later on, without further comment. I think most would agree the later examples of everything, including etching, do not come close to the earlier ones in quality or precision. There are well-known reasons for such.

A portion of the obverse etch. Frosted background, polished highlights, nickel-plated.

Grumpy, I think we´re very close to finally decipher the inscription ... which was the one and only objective of your post!!!

My mother in law was unfortunately not able to read and thus to confirm the complete inscription, as she was not sure about single letters.

But then ... I have asked her to write the sentence Wotan has deciphered in the "Sütterlin" script:

"Treuer Heinrich! Es wird dir gelingen siegreich!"
(Loyal Heinrich! You will succeed victoriously!)

And this is the result. Compare this writing to the inscription on your blade. If it approximately matches ... that´s it!

Thank you very much! It is not precisely the same, but, allowing for minor differences in the handwriting of individuals, I have no doubt the wording is the same. I do not read nor write German in any form, but this script is really something. No wonder it is difficult to sort out.

Although I am a German ... I can´t read that scribble either

Interesting how a script of a language changes nearly completely in less than a century.