UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Names, Documents, Photos and Translation Forum Sword Blade Inscription

Please help if you can. I know this is difficult. Will post photos showing sections of the inscription. The etch is light and areas are dark with age. Thank you.

Next

Photo 3

Photo 4

Photo 5

Photo 6

Photo 7

Photo 8 (last)

Photos 3,5,6 & 8 are the beginning of the inscription. That area is the most difficult to make out.

As one reads down the blade, after the beginning, the order is photos 2,4,1 & 7.

I have tried to copy the inscription. I am sure it is filled with errors, but it is not easy to read. Perhaps this and the photos will help in the translation. Thanks, again!

For my feelings this part of our forum more and more seems to turn into a solving-miracle-forum .
I have to admit that it is for sure very difficult to photograph a blade! But I am sorry for me personally these pics are much to unclear to be able to read the text. Perhaps (I am sure about it) other forum members are better in doing it.
BUT: I at least clearly can see A.Hitlers signature in pic #7. I assume that the whole text is any saying of A.H.
Regards,

Thanks for trying, Wotan. I knew it wouldn't be easy. I have done a bit of cleaning and am pretty sure the first word of the inscription is "Treuer." You are right about the signature. It appears to be Hitler's. I'll keep working on it and try to provide more meaningful information.

Not a great deal of improvement, but some, I think.

The words in pic 2 could stand for "Es wird der ..." ??

Wow, that´s difficult. Could it be?

"Treuer ____ Es wird der ____ _ich! Adolf Hitler.

Can you try to post more pictures like #2?

BTW - here´s the alphabet in Sütterlin script. Maybe it helps?

Many thanks for the alphabet conversion. It sure helps me in other documents, etc.

Mark

Thanks for the interest and the input. Yes, it could be "Treuer __ Es Wird, etc. Would someone please translate that part? I have cleaned the blade some more and it is easier to see what is there, but I suspect the handwriting itself is the big problem. Apparently, "Der Fuhrer" could have learned better penmanship. The second word could be "Himmler." It starts out that way, but ends in letters that don't appear appropriate. Will post another stab at the remainder of the inscription.

Treuer ___ Es wird der ___ ___

means

Loyal (or faithful) ___ It will be the ___ ___

but depending on the 2 missing words (noun or adjective) it could also be

Loyal (or faithful) ___ The ___ will be ___

I don´t think the second word is Himmler. I would interpret the first letter as "N", not as "H". The last letter could be "h".

Some other letters in the last words I would see as "g" and "e".

Treuer N___h Es wird der ge__g__ jeg_ich!

For the moment this doesn´t make too much sense to me, as I cannot figure out any words which are similar to this. It´s also difficult to see how many letters are missing inbetween.

I think we need some more pics. Maybe from other angles with different light. The best would be pics of each single word in large format (plus a copy in your handwriting).

Maybe we´ll figure it out ... step by step.

Let's try some new photos. Please refer to the hand-drawn inscriptions above to help tie it together. Thanks.

Number 2

Photo 3

Photo 4

Photo 5

Photo 6

Photo 7

Grumpy, thanks for the much better pics. But it´s really tough. I will show the inscription to my mother in law. She can read Sütterlin and I hope she can solve this brainteaser. Gimme just a few days more time. I´ll be back soon.

Grumpy, didn´t forget you. I showed the inscription to my mother in law on my laptop screen. She was taught Sütterlin script at school and she can write and read Sütterlin still today. Even she had problems to decipher the inscription. I will print out your pics in my office within the next days and give them to her. She will try it again. I hope we can decipher the inscription.

Is there any additional information available related to this inscription? Is it on a sword? If so, which type of sword? From which period? Anything else which can add some information to it?

Thanks for your extraordinary efforts and continued interest! The inscription is on a presentation SS sword blade (not damascus) from Hitler to Himmler. So, the inscription would likely be somewhat personal and lauding Himmler's loyalty and service. It is a "Dachau" or "Muller" blade, so the earliest it would have been etched would have been the late 1930's. However, I believe it was more likely etched in the 1940's. On the other side is a date of 1934, which, of course, could not have been the year of presentation. I believe the sword was prepared for an anniversary. Five years would be 1939; ten years, 1944. Looking at the quality, etc., I think the 1944 date is more likely. I hope this is of help. It may take an expert on Hitler's handwriting to "break the code." Again, I am very appreciative of your assistance.

Grumpy:
How about posting pics. of the whole sword? It might give us a feel for what you have here.
Jim

Hi, Jim. I'm a little reluctant to do that right now. I would like to get a good translation of the inscription before doing anything else with it. I just don't care to read a lot of "I don't like the look of's," etc. I am not interested in opinions on authenticity. As you can tell from this thread, photographing the blade is extremely difficult. If we can get the inscription translated, I will consider posting more photos here or in the sword thread. I appreciate your interest.

It would be much easier examine this sword if we saw the entire thing, instead of pieces and parts of an etch that looks very sketchy to begin with.

Ok Grumpy:
I understand your position. This certainly sounds like a very interesting sword! I'll await further developments with interest.
Jim

Cliff, Muller was all but shut down in 1943 as the demands for the war effort had put the big hand on his last 2 SS apprentices, as they were drafted. Along with an etch that I feel doesn't come close to even reflecting something that we see done during the period; a dedicated blade from the Fuhrer to the Reichs Fuhrer SS on a standard stainless blade by the master of Damascus ? ................. truthfully I just can't see it.

Hamilton's book on 3rd Reich personalities has 50 pages of the Fuhrer's signature and none so even come close to what is seen on this blade.

If you study the documents and letters actually written by Hitler, you will see that the pen strokes of his words are very decisive, angled, sharp and swift. Nothing like the very smooth and round dedication that you see on this blade.

JR, with all due respect, you have established my point. Very little of this blade has been shown, much less the entire sword. There are other aspects to it thus far not disclosed. I know the blade was made at the Dachau forge, along with the other parts, at some point. It is very old, including the etch and, in places, worn. It required much cleaning just to get it to a presentable state. The "grunge" was real, not artificially added. There are a few nicks on the blade edges and other signs of being around a long time. It could have been made postwar, like many other German WWII edged weapons, some accepted as "real" today. If it was, it was about 1944 or 1945. I own this sword and have no intention of selling it. Someone I respect immensely has examined it and is somewhat mystified by it, as am I. He could detect nothing that indicates it is anything but period. The etch on the other side of the blade is "classic" late Dachau. The same person above who examined it advised the etching solution was sprayed on the metal in the later period, resulting in a shallow etch, especially when compared to etching from the 1930's and prior, which was done by immersing the metal in the solution. It is also lightly nickel-plated, which turned black in areas before cleaning. As to Hitler's handwriting, I will leave that to a recognized handwriting expert. Handwriting analysis is not an exact science. Hitler's health was very poor in the later war years and he was injured in the bomb blast. These factors could have significantly altered his handwriting. This also could explain why the writing is so difficult for those who read such to decipher. Then, there is the etching itself. The quality was nowhere near what it was later on and the transfer of the actual handwriting to the etch was likely less than seen when the Dachau forge was at its height. The handwriting may also be something of a facsimile, as opposed to an exact reproduction. Really, JR, some of the points you bring up tend to confirm the sword is a very late piece. It could have been assembled postwar from pieces, including the blade, that never left the forge prior to that time. I don't think it would matter when it occured, if Hitler wanted such a sword made, Muller would have found a way to get it done, even with less quality than he would have desired. He probably didn't have the wherewithall in talent or supplies to make up a fancy sword, as seen earlier. Muller may have also made it on his own and the idea was rejected by Hitler or someone else. It is entirely speculative when this degen was made. It could have been made at any time while the Dachau forge was operating, but it has the classic signs of a later piece. None of this really matters to me. I find it a most interesting sword and there is more pointing to it's being made during the war than after. Remember, I have it and have examined with a great deal of skepticism, as have others. I had to perform some minor restoration work on it to get it up to a reasonably decent condition. It was approaching "doggy" when I received it. All I wish here is to have the inscription translated, if possible. I appreciate the genuine interest collectors may have in this sword, but I did not seek assistance to open a debate or defend the sword's authenticity. I am happy to accept it for what it appears to be. I make no claim it was ever presented to Himmler or that Hitler authorized its production. I don't know its history and, I'm sure, never will. Whenever it, or its components, were produced, they are classic late "Dachau" in every respect and there is every indication they were produced during the Third Reich period.

Very good Sir, lets get some of the pros on here to see if they can make heads or tails of the words on the blade, to begin with. And let see if the grammer is correct for such a piece.

Why do you try to jump on people so hard,JR ? We don't need this. It don't get answers, just anger. Ask Donnie.

Joe

OK Joe, I'll tame it down for you especially; and use some more please's, thank you's, and get more on the touchy feely side of discussions. More of what you would like to see, Sir ?? The tamed down JR ?

I like the regular JR.

Mark

The wording without any doubt should be
"Treuer Heinrich. Es wird dir gelingen .....! Adolf Hitler" (one word before the "!" is missing, I cannot read it how hard I try).
Transl.: (my) Loyal Heinrich (prenom of H.H.). You will succeed ....! A.H."
No question about that it SHOULD BE A.H.´s signature! You might discuss if it conforms but no discussion that it "should be".
A better pic of the section "Heinrich" perhaps would help as there are letters and combinations included which I assume to see also in the missing word.
As I am (beside other respectable members) doing here requested hard work I think of having the right also to give a statement about the overall of the blade and inscription: For my personal opinion and due to my experience from decades of collecting these item does not conform in quality to doubtless period items I have seen. The writing itself in certain details does not conform to what I have seen of doubtless A.H. hand-writings. Although I would not be astonished to see this certain writing (hand writing or faximile of hand writing) perhaps in any book or so. Nevertheless the "character" of the writing is quite different (each person who has done in hand writings easily knows what I mean). This also could be a result of unskilled transformation of the original writing to etching (which I personally mostly assume is). In my humble opinion this transformation was done by a person who had not the least knowledge on "Kurrent"-script (which it is) and could only transform the lining so so without knowing WHAT he is transforming. Therefore also the big difficulties in reading.
As we are a living forum even in these special segments (here "translation") I think we members have the right to express an experienced opinion and lead a disciplined discussion.
Just my thoughts. If I am wrong, please tell me.
Regards,

It is now my serious assumption that the missing word is "siegreich!" (transl: "victoriously") which
1.) would come next to how it (truely) is written in Kurrent-script
2.) would make sense and
3.) fully does conform to my personal statements about the whole thing.
Regards,

I suppose any member has his "right" to express himself on any topic. In the broad view, that is fine, but there is a time and place for everything and there are such things as respect, courtesy and common sense in expressing one's opinions. I will reiterate the purpose of my inquiry was to obtain a translation. Nothing more, nothing less. This is the translation forum, after all. I don't give a hoot about opinions on this sword. Opinions are cheap and even the lowest moron can have an opinion. Even "learned" opinions can and do vary. It is always easy to criticize, even out of ignorance, jealousy or other reasons, such as demonstrating one's vast and superior knowledge, which may, in fact, be just the opposite. Wotan, I appreciate what you have added, as far as the translation is concerned. I also appreciate what appears to be your belated interest in the topic. When I first sought help, it appeared from your post that you were not that interested and a bit irritated by it. No more photos of, or other information on, this sword will be posted here or elsewhere on the site. I will happily share information privately with those with a genuine and objective interest. Opinions are welcome when sought. I will make no further comment here. That is my right.

quote:

The wording without any doubt should be
"Treuer Heinrich. Es wird dir gelingen .....! Adolf Hitler" (one word before the "!" is missing, I cannot read it how hard I try).

( I'm doing a little bow and curtsey for joeblow personally, as I type this post)

Cliff, since the sword is off limits for discussion, and opinions are basically nothing, you've asked for one thing initially......... the translation of the etch.

Wotan has given you that in his translation above. He discusses and is familar with Kurrent script. From the German language, the inscription doesn't make sense as even words are missing from the text. I think that this and only this were we allowed to comment on, and that's what he gave you.

With regards and respect the new kinder gentler........... JR

Grumpy, I am glad you appreciate the (now full) inscription (of one side) and it´s translation.
Be sure that it is not my intention to to make anything good bad. When I make a statement (and naturally all of us can make a mistake) I do it carefully and with respect. It should HELP the current owner or the potent buyer to make any decision not to slam any item.
I understand your fear quite well, it HAS happened more than once that an good item has been corrupted during discussion. I hope you also understand my point of view.
There also might be high interest even it LOOKS belated .

Wotan, good job in deciphering this hard riddle .. and I really hate to raise some new questions ... but I have some:

#1
Do you think this sentence does make sense in German language:

"Treuer Heinrich! Es wird dir gelingen siegreich!"
(Loyal Heinrich! You will succeed victoriously!)

To me the order of words in the second part is not correct for German language. The correct order should be: "Es wird dir siegreich gelingen!" Don´t you think?

#2
What is your opinion? But the letters "d" from the word "wird" and "dir" look to me quite different? Look at the picture "Number 2".

Sorry for raising these questions and for maybe continuing this discussion.

You should take and rub a tube of semichrome over the blade to clean it up a bit, hell grab a wire wheel and go over it to smooth out the etching. Just can't read it in this state, i would expect anything that bares himmlers or hitlers name on a sword like this to be true damascus, with an easily legible name so you could show it off to your buddys. Did you get an inspection period? get us some more pics that are clearer.

... not good enough photos for me. Last 2 words are maybe in German "jemandem zuwink!"
(zugewinkt). Very very strange etching surface when the name AH is included...

For english-german translation on the side I can recommend:
http://dict.leo.org/?lang=de&lp=ende

Please send me better and larger photos to: robertcollectibles@gmx.net

Right now I am sitting in CA and have not the time to work on it, coming weekend I can work on it.

With all due respect I don’t know that I would use Simichrome to clean the blade. While it’s abrasive is very finely divided, I've seen too many etched blades where the frosting was removed by abrasive polishing. Also, sprayed on nitric acid? I’ve seen shallow etches on a number of items. But the idea of pressurized nitric acid being atomized while forced through a nozzle does make me wonder how the operator survived to spray again? FP

Fred:
I'm pretty sure Roy was being facetious here! If he was being serious he'd have recommended soaking it in beer overnite!
Jim

ivbaust,
Grumpy, as the owner of the blade does not want it discussed. Beside a general statement in the intention to help him in any decision that might come, I do respect the wish of the owner. Therefore I answered and explained detailed per PM.
But I want to emphasize in public that I am sure about the text and I hold on my personal opinion mentioned.
Regards,

I know I am renegging on my earlier statement, but I feel further comment is appropriate. First, I again thank those who were helpful in the translation. Second, I was told by Don Swanson, a master restorer of edged weapons and extremely knowledgeable about how they were produced, about the spraying technique. I do believe he knows a good deal about etching. Certainly, that helps explain the shallow etch on later examples. Third, have you noticed that nearly every comment in this thread, except those directly involved with the translation, are negative, challenging and/or, a few, smarmy? That is why some are reluctant to post photos, ask questions, etc., on this site. This has been said many times before. I made it clear early on I simply wanted help with the translation and did not care to hear opinions otherwise. If I wanted opinions, I would have asked for them or posted a request elsewhere and shown the entire sword. I do not object to the observations of wotan and others as regards the nature of the inscription, questionable aspects, etc. I agree that goes with the translation and, I think is desirable. I made it clear there are several possibilities regarding it, including questions regarding authenticity of the etch, etc. Fourth, I will note sword blades with "script" inscriptions are all but unheard of. Usually, any writing on them is in printed or block letters, as is the writing on the obverse of this blade. Check TW's SS book for examples. While you are at it, note there are presentation blades there pertaining to SS higher up's with very "Plain Jane" inscriptions and dedications. As far as damascus, I again would state this is a later blade. The Dachau forge was running on empty and damascus was probably all but out of the question. The occasion may well have not called for more than as represented. Fifth, I think it unreasonable to assume Hitler sat down and wrote out an inscription to precisely fit the blade. The etcher practically had to enlarge whatever he was given to work with. It may have been written by Hitler or one of his assistants. I doubt the Fuhrer would have given a lot of time and thought to a project of this nature, especially later on. If you receive something from a high politician or celebrity today, you can just about bet it was signed with an auto pen or someone trained to imitate his signature. When I was in the FBI, there were several at headquarters who signed Hoover's signature dozens of times a day in fountain pen and no one knew the difference. Sixth, why put the Hitler inscription on the blade at all? Seems a lot of unnecessary trouble when Himmler's name prominently appears in the etching on the other side of the blade. There are other aspects that are attractive about it, as well, without the inscription. Seventh, the sword is obviously old, needed some light work and was bought for a very low price. Not the kind of thing a scammer would deceive someone over for tens of thousands of dollars. So, that's about it. Think what you will. Criticize, mostly in ignorance, if you must. I'm sure some would grind off the inscription to make it "correct." I will not. I like this old sword and consider something special. As Forrest Gump would say: "That's all I have to say about that."

Grumpy, Regarding: “Second, I was told by Don Swanson, a master restorer of edged weapons and extremely knowledgeable about how they were produced, about the spraying technique. I do believe he knows a good deal about etching. Certainly, that helps explain the shallow etch on later examples.”

Having etched blades from the very early mid 19th century into the postwar period and some technical background. I would respectfully suggest that it is more a function of time and the concentration of the acid which affects the depth of the etching. Not the method of application. And while it’s difficult to see, I’ve seen other examples that resemble this kind of etching. But that is not something that you want to discuss. And I am here to help not argue.

For Wotan and Ivbaust: Here is image # 2 cleaned up as best I could. And inverted in the hope that that the inscription can be seen more easily. FP

Sure, the depth of the etch depends upon the length of time the metal is exposed to the acid. It could be dipped or otherwise. Later etches seem to be much more shallow than earlier ones. That alone does not mean the acid was sprayed. Don simply pointed out the spraying technique was used later on, without further comment. I think most would agree the later examples of everything, including etching, do not come close to the earlier ones in quality or precision. There are well-known reasons for such.

A portion of the obverse etch. Frosted background, polished highlights, nickel-plated.

Grumpy, I think we´re very close to finally decipher the inscription ... which was the one and only objective of your post!!!

My mother in law was unfortunately not able to read and thus to confirm the complete inscription, as she was not sure about single letters.

But then ... I have asked her to write the sentence Wotan has deciphered in the "Sütterlin" script:

"Treuer Heinrich! Es wird dir gelingen siegreich!"
(Loyal Heinrich! You will succeed victoriously!)

And this is the result. Compare this writing to the inscription on your blade. If it approximately matches ... that´s it!

Thank you very much! It is not precisely the same, but, allowing for minor differences in the handwriting of individuals, I have no doubt the wording is the same. I do not read nor write German in any form, but this script is really something. No wonder it is difficult to sort out.

Although I am a German ... I can´t read that scribble either

Interesting how a script of a language changes nearly completely in less than a century.