UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Names, Documents, Photos and Translation Forum Sword Blade Inscription

Please help if you can. I know this is difficult. Will post photos showing sections of the inscription. The etch is light and areas are dark with age. Thank you.

Next

Photo 3

Photo 4

Photo 5

Photo 6

Photo 7

Photo 8 (last)

Photos 3,5,6 & 8 are the beginning of the inscription. That area is the most difficult to make out.

As one reads down the blade, after the beginning, the order is photos 2,4,1 & 7.

I have tried to copy the inscription. I am sure it is filled with errors, but it is not easy to read. Perhaps this and the photos will help in the translation. Thanks, again!

For my feelings this part of our forum more and more seems to turn into a solving-miracle-forum .
I have to admit that it is for sure very difficult to photograph a blade! But I am sorry for me personally these pics are much to unclear to be able to read the text. Perhaps (I am sure about it) other forum members are better in doing it.
BUT: I at least clearly can see A.Hitlers signature in pic #7. I assume that the whole text is any saying of A.H.
Regards,

Thanks for trying, Wotan. I knew it wouldn't be easy. I have done a bit of cleaning and am pretty sure the first word of the inscription is "Treuer." You are right about the signature. It appears to be Hitler's. I'll keep working on it and try to provide more meaningful information.

Not a great deal of improvement, but some, I think.

The words in pic 2 could stand for "Es wird der ..." ??

Wow, that´s difficult. Could it be?

"Treuer ____ Es wird der ____ _ich! Adolf Hitler.

Can you try to post more pictures like #2?

BTW - here´s the alphabet in Sütterlin script. Maybe it helps?

Many thanks for the alphabet conversion. It sure helps me in other documents, etc.

Mark

Thanks for the interest and the input. Yes, it could be "Treuer __ Es Wird, etc. Would someone please translate that part? I have cleaned the blade some more and it is easier to see what is there, but I suspect the handwriting itself is the big problem. Apparently, "Der Fuhrer" could have learned better penmanship. The second word could be "Himmler." It starts out that way, but ends in letters that don't appear appropriate. Will post another stab at the remainder of the inscription.

Treuer ___ Es wird der ___ ___

means

Loyal (or faithful) ___ It will be the ___ ___

but depending on the 2 missing words (noun or adjective) it could also be

Loyal (or faithful) ___ The ___ will be ___

I don´t think the second word is Himmler. I would interpret the first letter as "N", not as "H". The last letter could be "h".

Some other letters in the last words I would see as "g" and "e".

Treuer N___h Es wird der ge__g__ jeg_ich!

For the moment this doesn´t make too much sense to me, as I cannot figure out any words which are similar to this. It´s also difficult to see how many letters are missing inbetween.

I think we need some more pics. Maybe from other angles with different light. The best would be pics of each single word in large format (plus a copy in your handwriting).

Maybe we´ll figure it out ... step by step.

Let's try some new photos. Please refer to the hand-drawn inscriptions above to help tie it together. Thanks.

Number 2

Photo 3

Photo 4

Photo 5

Photo 6

Photo 7

Grumpy, thanks for the much better pics. But it´s really tough. I will show the inscription to my mother in law. She can read Sütterlin and I hope she can solve this brainteaser. Gimme just a few days more time. I´ll be back soon.

Grumpy, didn´t forget you. I showed the inscription to my mother in law on my laptop screen. She was taught Sütterlin script at school and she can write and read Sütterlin still today. Even she had problems to decipher the inscription. I will print out your pics in my office within the next days and give them to her. She will try it again. I hope we can decipher the inscription.

Is there any additional information available related to this inscription? Is it on a sword? If so, which type of sword? From which period? Anything else which can add some information to it?

Thanks for your extraordinary efforts and continued interest! The inscription is on a presentation SS sword blade (not damascus) from Hitler to Himmler. So, the inscription would likely be somewhat personal and lauding Himmler's loyalty and service. It is a "Dachau" or "Muller" blade, so the earliest it would have been etched would have been the late 1930's. However, I believe it was more likely etched in the 1940's. On the other side is a date of 1934, which, of course, could not have been the year of presentation. I believe the sword was prepared for an anniversary. Five years would be 1939; ten years, 1944. Looking at the quality, etc., I think the 1944 date is more likely. I hope this is of help. It may take an expert on Hitler's handwriting to "break the code." Again, I am very appreciative of your assistance.

Grumpy:
How about posting pics. of the whole sword? It might give us a feel for what you have here.
Jim

Hi, Jim. I'm a little reluctant to do that right now. I would like to get a good translation of the inscription before doing anything else with it. I just don't care to read a lot of "I don't like the look of's," etc. I am not interested in opinions on authenticity. As you can tell from this thread, photographing the blade is extremely difficult. If we can get the inscription translated, I will consider posting more photos here or in the sword thread. I appreciate your interest.

It would be much easier examine this sword if we saw the entire thing, instead of pieces and parts of an etch that looks very sketchy to begin with.

Ok Grumpy:
I understand your position. This certainly sounds like a very interesting sword! I'll await further developments with interest.
Jim

Cliff, Muller was all but shut down in 1943 as the demands for the war effort had put the big hand on his last 2 SS apprentices, as they were drafted. Along with an etch that I feel doesn't come close to even reflecting something that we see done during the period; a dedicated blade from the Fuhrer to the Reichs Fuhrer SS on a standard stainless blade by the master of Damascus ? ................. truthfully I just can't see it.

Hamilton's book on 3rd Reich personalities has 50 pages of the Fuhrer's signature and none so even come close to what is seen on this blade.

If you study the documents and letters actually written by Hitler, you will see that the pen strokes of his words are very decisive, angled, sharp and swift. Nothing like the very smooth and round dedication that you see on this blade.

JR, with all due respect, you have established my point. Very little of this blade has been shown, much less the entire sword. There are other aspects to it thus far not disclosed. I know the blade was made at the Dachau forge, along with the other parts, at some point. It is very old, including the etch and, in places, worn. It required much cleaning just to get it to a presentable state. The "grunge" was real, not artificially added. There are a few nicks on the blade edges and other signs of being around a long time. It could have been made postwar, like many other German WWII edged weapons, some accepted as "real" today. If it was, it was about 1944 or 1945. I own this sword and have no intention of selling it. Someone I respect immensely has examined it and is somewhat mystified by it, as am I. He could detect nothing that indicates it is anything but period. The etch on the other side of the blade is "classic" late Dachau. The same person above who examined it advised the etching solution was sprayed on the metal in the later period, resulting in a shallow etch, especially when compared to etching from the 1930's and prior, which was done by immersing the metal in the solution. It is also lightly nickel-plated, which turned black in areas before cleaning. As to Hitler's handwriting, I will leave that to a recognized handwriting expert. Handwriting analysis is not an exact science. Hitler's health was very poor in the later war years and he was injured in the bomb blast. These factors could have significantly altered his handwriting. This also could explain why the writing is so difficult for those who read such to decipher. Then, there is the etching itself. The quality was nowhere near what it was later on and the transfer of the actual handwriting to the etch was likely less than seen when the Dachau forge was at its height. The handwriting may also be something of a facsimile, as opposed to an exact reproduction. Really, JR, some of the points you bring up tend to confirm the sword is a very late piece. It could have been assembled postwar from pieces, including the blade, that never left the forge prior to that time. I don't think it would matter when it occured, if Hitler wanted such a sword made, Muller would have found a way to get it done, even with less quality than he would have desired. He probably didn't have the wherewithall in talent or supplies to make up a fancy sword, as seen earlier. Muller may have also made it on his own and the idea was rejected by Hitler or someone else. It is entirely speculative when this degen was made. It could have been made at any time while the Dachau forge was operating, but it has the classic signs of a later piece. None of this really matters to me. I find it a most interesting sword and there is more pointing to it's being made during the war than after. Remember, I have it and have examined with a great deal of skepticism, as have others. I had to perform some minor restoration work on it to get it up to a reasonably decent condition. It was approaching "doggy" when I received it. All I wish here is to have the inscription translated, if possible. I appreciate the genuine interest collectors may have in this sword, but I did not seek assistance to open a debate or defend the sword's authenticity. I am happy to accept it for what it appears to be. I make no claim it was ever presented to Himmler or that Hitler authorized its production. I don't know its history and, I'm sure, never will. Whenever it, or its components, were produced, they are classic late "Dachau" in every respect and there is every indication they were produced during the Third Reich period.

Very good Sir, lets get some of the pros on here to see if they can make heads or tails of the words on the blade, to begin with. And let see if the grammer is correct for such a piece.