UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Are 'Transitional' SAs and NSKKs valued or respected by Dagger enthusiasts?

I am new to the dagger hobby, so please forgive the elementary nature of the question...

Can you guys explain the significance of the Transitionals? How long were they produced?
Are they considered desirable?

any info is really appreciated...

robert

Hello, Robert! In 1935, when the RZM took over quality-control issues, dagger makers were required to mark their product with their assigned RZM numbers. The dagger makers of Solingen[and elswhere] were quite proud of their heritage and quality. It is my understanding that some of them chose to mark their daggers with the new RZM numbers and also their old "maker-mark" as well. These "double-marked" daggers are what most collectors consider "transitionals". This way, their daggers would still be associated with their earlier, quality product. I, personally, like them and value them. I have two NSKK transitionals, an M7/33 F.W. Holler and an M7/66 Carl Eickhorn dated 1939. Not sure if there are any dated later than this. Perhaps other members can add to this. Hope this helps! Regards

I think transitionals are under appreciated by the collecting community. Here's my transitional NSKK by Eickhorn. They don't come much nicer.

Maker Mark

Bernie, that's a sweetheart! Here's my Holler, finest crossgraining I've ever seen! Regards

Pic-2

Pic-3

WOW!
the quality of your daggers leaves me speechless! thanks for the pics!

what was the window of time during which these transitionals were produced? 6months? a year?

Sweet daggers!

I would take those any time!

Bernie what a honey! Send to the USA!

PVON

Top quality those ones.

I often read that the RZM era daggers lack the craftsmanship and quality of the earlier maker-marked ones...
Do the 'transitionals' more closely resemble the earlier daggers or the RZM daggers in terms of quality?

Nice dagger Leipzig.

Bernie... your dagger is extremely nice!

Transitionals can have early or late characteristics. For example, Leipzig's has what appears to be plated fittings and an aluminum eagle. Mine on the other hand has all nickel silver fittings and eagle. So it exhibits the qualities of an early dagger with the only difference being the addition of the RZM mark to the blade and the painted scabbard (as opposed to anodized). It really depends on when it was made during the transitional period.

Bernie, Here's my transitional Eickhorn. Probably a little later than yours as the fittings are all plated and I noticed mine has the date 1938 under the rzm mark.

2

3

Very cool dagger reds. That probably makes mine circa late 1936 or early 1937.

I remembered this very interesting paragraph on transitional daggers in J.A. Bowmans book, THIRD REICH DAGGERS 1933 - 1945: Page 479

"Daggers produced after 1936 will be encountered which still bear the RZM logo and makers name and logo: however on these pieces the date normally appears in full. Daggers with these post-1936 markings were specially ordered items and were usually of very high quality,far exceeding the regular RZM specifications. These daggers if still in good condition always command a higher price than the regular RZM models."
The one SS transitional I own by Eickhorn seems to bear this out!
Jim

The challenge with 'transitional' daggers is much the same as with the RZM dagger - lack of dependable quality. Let me explain:

- The early maker-marked daggers are predictable in their quality components, assembly, and finish. Some makers are esteemed above others, but those daggers are in a class by themselves.

- The RZM and transitionals are a very mixed bag. Some have all the quality of the early daggers mentioned above. At the other end of the spectrum, some have zinc plated crossguards that decay almost as you watch. Some have anodised scabbards with lead weights and nickel silver fittings and other have painted scabbards with no weight and steel fittings.

Dave

I agree with Bernie, transitionals are underappreciated by most collectors. They're a minefield in terms of finding an early example that has pre RZM quality despite the transitional markings. They can be most beautiful and can sometimes be gotten at a bargain as compared to the pre RZM pieces.

I've got only one transitional, and a later piece at that, dated 1940. It's a Wingen NSKK with copper grip eagle and beautiful crossgrained blade that has just a few runner marks. I'm sure this one didn't see too many torchlight parades. It does unfortunately have the plated scabbard fittings. I guess you can't have everything, but this was from the glory days of Eban so you know the price was right.

Billy G,
I must admit, I really really like your dagger..the combination of maker mark, RZM, and date of manufacture (1940) is really a cool looking group..I guess to be a dagger 'purist' you have to prefer the early stuff, and maybe because I havent handled very many daggers yet I am not in a position to state with authority,
but on a purely aesthetics level, I think the transitional dagger you have posted is pretty freaking cool..
Hopefully most will disagree, and I can start acquiring these on the cheap!

By the way,
Bernie, Leipzig, and Reds, you guys have some
awesome daggers too...
its amazing to me that after 70 years of existence, daggers of this quality still survive...
A testament not only to the quality in manufacturing, but to the caretakers of the daggers over the years...

After collecting TR stuff for years and successfully avoiding the dagger aspect, I get the allure now...They're amazing! I'm hooked!

Tex,

Many thanks for the kind words. I picked this one up from an upstate NY antiques dealer who had picked it up from a vet's estate sale, it had never been in a collection before mine. I was new at the time and liked the whole shebang despite the bad pics at the time.

I took a chance since there were no returns from the seller. I was happy to find it was all original although I had hoped it to be one of those later Marine SA/NSKK pieces since the grip had a gold eagle and the fittings had a gold sheen to them, attached was a 1 piece late war OLC marked black hanger. A good deal for the money if I remember correctly. It was my first experience with nicotine patination and unfortunately I rubbed most of it off with a rag since it had "that stink" to it and I was disappointed it wasn't the gold wash I initially thought it was. I realized the error of my ways shortly thereafter and haven't cleaned anything since, except for a quick wipedown for blades only. Keep looking, you'll find something nice and maybe even underpriced. They're still out there.

I started collecting with an early SA by Voos I bought at a gun show over 25 years ago. The guy had 2 SA's, one early, one later RZM which was in better condition. I knew nothing, but instictively like the early Maker marked one. Nevertheless, I like the transitionals, though I only have one left. Dated 1939 with tag, bag, even the string to go around the bag. I like it because this Herder made many SS daggers. I've only seen this maker mark on Transitional SA's, never seen an early SA without RZM with it.

Maker Mark side

MM closeup

Very Nice John,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

A beauty!!!
Seiler (Yank in UK

John, a truly superb set! Never seen a rectangular shaped bag before! The one I have[and all others I've seen]] are "tapered" on one end. Regards

Boy, that is one nice looking dagger!

Mark

Fine pieces all--but transitional- NOT special order as quoted by Bowman.

Stunning daggers and many of Bowman's statements have to be taken very lightly.

I agree in general Pat r.e. Bowman. He has mistakes in his book but so do all the other authors on 3rd Reich items. But I've never seen this statement anyplace else and there's a lot of repro crap that's pictured in his book that you won't find anywhere else. I've always wondered why that might be?
Jim

my transitional dagger

Very nice kaiser. What maker mark is that one?

kaiser's dagger appears to be a Klittermann & Moog.

hello william, my dagger is klitterman & moog M7-29-1939

And another from Klitterman & Moog - interestingly also from the same year

Ya gotta love those K&M pieces. Stunning.

I just love that Klitterman & Moog mark!! I think it is interesting how the rzm & maker mark is flip-flopped between the two examples shown! Wonder wich is the earlier configuration?? Kevin.

I must admit I am intrigued by the transitionals...anybody wanna post anymore pics of theirs?

Unfortunately it only photos....
m7/10

m7/10 another

m7/11

m7/112

m7/118

m7/25

m7/28

m7/30

m7/5

m7/53

m7/6

m7/85

Between the two threads, there are two that I would like to see in person:

- The HACO with the non-matching number. I am not even sure of the number as the pict is poor

- The M7/1 because of the quality of the RZM etch

The others I have seen before and they are OK.

Dave

I think I'll cry now. I sent some SA's to TTW to photograph for his new SA book, including my Herder transitional shown here. Apparently Tom has someone else unpack his daggers, and the guy didn't see the bag protected by cardboard(and clearly marked Bag inside, do not throw away).

After 4 weeks, I got the daggers back, and Tom never even saw the bag and thinks it was thrown out!!

He's going to pay me for it's value, but I'd really just rather have the bag back. There's a chance it was sent to another collector, as he recycles the boxes, so if anyone sees a Herder bag, I'm a major buyer!!!!


John

JOHN!!! OMG!!
As great pictures are that you take and as risky as shipping daggers is today, even when YOU KNOW what is coming, this is why I ACCEPT photos from those qualified to photograp to supply ones for my publications.
We, who publish, all need help from the collecting community, but to not accept what can be supplied is understandable, but also a great risk to the hobby period.
Those who supplied photos to me followed my instructions well enough to warrant NOT sending the pieces via carrier.
In the past where someone couldn't photograph well or could not have a professional follow my instructions often brought the items to a show and Margaret and I photographed them at the show.
A problem: yes, but I also understand why Tom W. wants to have the continuity of photographs and the presentation is better, but the risk is greater.
This is a problem, regardless of the answer.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Ron, I remember thinking, wow, my pictures are good enough for Ron's new book...that's cool!!
I also remember you brought your Dutch HJ to the SOS for me to compare mine with, instead of mailing mine to you. I guess even traveling with them is a risk, as TTW lost a whole Cadillac trunk load full of daggers early on in his career.

It will make me think twice before mailing more rare daggers away for photographs. I'll have to ask myself, can I live without these? Well, yes, but how upset will I be?

Thanks, John

I'm VERY sorry to hear about this John. A terrible loss. I remember seeing a dagger identical to yours being sold many years ago by Joe Pankowski. It was bought by Jason and was in his collection for a long time. Could this be the same one?

Houston, I'm not certain. I have had 2 of these over the years. The first set I bought from Tom Johnson, perfect except there were pits where the runners rested on the blade and it had more bubbling at the cross guard wood grip interface. I found a second one, which is this one, which was in much better condition, and sold the first one. Now I don't remember where I bought the second one. At least I know there is another bag out there somewhere. Sadly, the pictures TTW had taken do not even include the bag since it was lost upon arrival.


John

Ilya, it would be great if you ask a permission or at least say thanks to the owners of the daggers and pics when you post them at the forums.

Thank you for the reminder. I am really very grateful to the authors of the photos. By the way, none of them has reproached me for using their photos. I hope they all understand that these photos were gathered from different threads of the forum and afterwards united under one topic in order to facilitate the usage of this complex data for all collectors.

Thanks to all for your understanding.

John, WOW that is a REAL loss to the hobby! I to hate sending out rare daggers as I have had several STOMPED on buy UPS and USPS. A-Holes!

UPS Quality

Even saw the UPS man toss it on the door step like is was soooooooooooo hard to bend over to lay it down. Just think they get paid 80k a year?????

Moral of the story........DON'T SKIMP ON THE PACKAGING MATERIALS!

Eric,
Thats a tragedy, I love see-ing these personalised pieces and its amazing to see how many are dedicated to Dr's. It looks like a great dagger and certainly not KLAAS treatment by the postie.
Can you claim for damages?.

QUite a few of the Dr.s are PhDs.

Dang Eric, I guess it could be called a train car dent...sounds more exotic than a UPS footprint.

John