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No question from me, absolute fake fantasy piece. Not sure what the maker was attempting to reproduce. Looks like a blending of the trop type with the white type and failing on both counts. I like the cute white painted buttons on the shoulder. I dont read German, is it listed as a real piece? If so, a contract should be taken out on both the seller and the maker. Regards Bill Bourque

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Addendum. On all issued zippered flight jackets and stepin suits the upper left collar snap and cloth tab are sown and attached along the first inch or so of the zipp, not part of the collar. Here is a pic showing the placement of the snap and tab. I wouldnt trust any example that did not have this feature. Regards Bill

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Hi Billy,

Great thread. Good luck on the hunt!

Ed

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Hello Bill.if you find a nicely made repro..drop me a line..I'll MOST LIKELY never find a real one (and if I did..I'd probably not shell out 10K for one..just not a price I can really justify) but I wouldnt mind owning a decent repro..repros do have their place in my opinion. I know many individuals would consider owning a repro some sort of "taboo".but..lets face it..with the ever escalating prices...and the price of some items approaching (if not already) a downpayment on a modest house in the midwest...there comes a time when the price of something is just not really worth owning the piece..my feeling is that if one can own a nice repro representative of the piece...why not? I know the argument is that it is supporting the demand for such wares..but just as in the gun ownership argument..its people that are ultimately responsible for passing off the items as real ..the item itself if made right certainly has a value in allowing one to own something representative which one financially could not afford.or even want to purchase for the price.


"Its a great thing the destruction of words"...George Orwell...1984
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Yesterday afternoon i discovered an original "white"in a Belgium collection. I shot some pics which I'll be posting later.It was recovered from a shot down and crashed German aircraft. BW Roger

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Here is a pic of the jacket. The condition is amazing, knowing it survived a fatel crash (FW-190) and it survived 55 years underground! It looks as if a standard eagle, in stead of the white (?) one as seen on the b/w pics was fitted.The jacket belonged to pilot Ogefr. Heinrich Zenker. He was killed in the crash. His FW190 was shot down by Col Hubert Zemke of the 56th Fighter Group (Thunderbolt P47)
Heinrich Zenker was rest to peace on February 27th 1999 at the German soldiers cementary in Lommel, Belgium. Don't know if the pic is to grim, but as it is showing a surviving "Great white", I thought it might be interesting. The jacket is now well taken care of in a museum.When I noticed the jacket, they were kind enough to remove it out of the vitrine it was kept in, so I could take some pics. If needed, I can post some more pics of the jacket, aswell as some detail pics of eagle and zipper. BW Roger

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Fasinating pic. Thanks for posting it.


Tim
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Thanks Tim. Here is a side shot, giving some more detail. I wonder why the eagle is a standard one, and all the ones on the posted b/w pics are lighter. Maybe the lighter ones were used for/by higher ranks? BW Roger

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Hello Roger and thanks for your detective work. Another grim reminder of the business of war. Several questions, are there any remains of the floppy wool collar? Are there remains of the sleeves that might show the white buttons on the sleeves? This pic seems to show an inner lining, could you describe it further? The wool skirt where the zipp ends shows a wide border of cloth that seems to indicate an example of the blue/gray type jacket. While I hope it is an example of the white type it maybe a faded blue/gray example. The presence of the floppy wool collar and white sleeve buttons would convince me. Is the breast eagle machine sown? I wouldnt think for any reason the white type eagle would be removed and replaced by a blue backed type. Hope I am wrong. Regards Bill

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Hi Bill, here are some more pics. BW Roger

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Unfortunatly I have to resise and shrink the pics to such low jpgs that most detail is lost.

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Some liner details

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The Eagle

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Hi Bill, At the backside of the color, in the neck of the pilot, there are some traces of a knitted grey woolen collar. The sleeves are gone, I think they were torn of in the crash. The zipper is still closed, and to remove the body of the pilot, the jacket was cut open sideways. As I used a 15 mm fisheye on my lens (I was there to photograph some aircraft , and nor expecting to shoot a jacket), there is deformation due to the lens used, things towards the end looks wider than they are.

The plane crashed in a groundtype that preserved everything. Clothing, papers and the pilot. Everything was very intact. His Kanalhose remained in the right colour, his soldbuch and letters were intact and are still readable, the contents of his pockets survived and the jacket, apart from the crash damage is in a very good condition. Outside is white with grey wool in neck and underside, inside of jacket is white, although a bit more creamy.All the sticking (is that the word?) is done with white/cream thread. The eagle, a pic is posted, looked, was sawed on the jacket right through the upper and lower side of the jacket. From the inside its outlines were clearly visible. I didn't gave the inside a close inspection, as you can imagine how this looks when a death was in here. The inside was dirty, stained and partly rotted, but at the untouched and clean spots, it was a creamy white. I have been, over the last 10 years, at severall crash sides, but the German uniforms always came out holding their blue colours, while English and American fabric often returns to a muddy brownish colour. I am 100% sure this jacket was never another colour than cream/white. BW Roger

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Outstanding. If it were possible I would fly over to maybe examine. You have convinced me that its a white example. Even in relic condition its a valuable referance piece. Did you see any stamps or labels? One mystery as to the inner lining of this type of jacket may have been solved. Any more analyis of the lining would be helpful. The breast eagle is still a mystery, Ive not seen any photo showing a blue/gray breast eagle on the "Great White'. Is there a collar snap still present? On some referance photos the backing of that snap appears to be white also, but have also seen pics showing it to be blue/gray. A somber reminder of the personal horror of war. Best regards Bill Bourque

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Hi Bill,
I'll be going there in again in December or early next year, and then I shall have a closer look and take some more shots.We looked for a label but couldn't find it,must have been at the torned away parts in the neck or arms. I was in this museum, it opened only a month ago, to shoot the pics of the aircraft. After I did this I looked into a vitrine and bang, there it was. As white as could be. I told the museum staff that they had an ultra rare flight jacket in their collection, maybe the only one still around, and they were very surprised to hear this. The pilot came from the Eastern front, and flew with JG 54. I'll post his pic later, aswell as some other info. It was an amazing and very grim found, as I was told by the man who removed the jacket in search of the pilots ID disk. Is this the only known survivor known? The quality of the jacket must have been very high.

BW Roger

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Hello Roger, Im of the belief that there are several surviving examples of this jacket and most certainly a mint one somewhere in the world of collecting(eternal optimist). As stated before there are no examples present in any form of referance. Is it possible for someone to examine the inner stitch lines of the breast eagle to ascertain if another one(white one) may have been present before the blue one? Regards Bill

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Hi Bill,

That was the only thing I looked for, but I didn't see any remains or other stitchings.They might have been there but it was not so pretty on the inside as you may understand.We closed the jacket very quickly.Next time I'll bring a special camera for infra red pics. If there was a white eagle once, it will show. But the blue one was already on it when the pilot was found. BW Roger

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Great pictures..it certainly gives new meaning to a "surviving" example..Im not trying to be sarcastic..the only one I've ever seen...and glad to even see one in this condition..I too share Bill's optimism that there is probably one around in complete condition..so much did survive.why not one of these jackets? Did this plane come out of a bog/marsh? I've seen pictures of a fw 190 out of Russia...the pilot stillin the seat...out of a bog...the body preserved...nails on the fingers..eyelashes on the eye..fairly amazing..Im assuming same thing here..the pics were gruesome.


"Its a great thing the destruction of words"...George Orwell...1984
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Here is a picture sent to me by Alexander Zoller collector of SIGNAL magazine. A color photo of Hendrik Stahl wearing the white jacket. My thanks. Roger,RFAJS could you please contact me per my email address? Regards Bill

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Pics.

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Pic

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I noticed I posted a repeat pic. Bill

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pic

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Here is a pic presented to me that is the only example Ive seen showing a different type breast eagle on the white jacket. Judging by its thickness it appears to be an officers bullion type. The pilot pictured is Hauptmann Carganico.

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If anyone is interesed I'll post two pics of a pilot taken out of a bog/marsh in Russia..the pics are a bit grusome..but explain how these items survive so long in this state.and a testament to the ugliness of war.


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Hi Scott, my guess is pics of that nature only reveal the horror of war. Maybe on another thread if at all.
Regards Bill

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Very informative thread on the white channel jacket! In addition to the variants already discussed (full zip version and the pullover style), I noticed a photo in the Brian Davis Luftwaffe Uniforms book (Vol 2, page 175) that shows Walter Oseau with what appears to be a white channel jacket with knit wrist cuffs. It appears to have the continuous waistband (pullover style). The photo would also possibly suggest the jacket is lined in a dark material -- the interior of the right side is visible.

Thanks for a most informative posting!

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Hello Sprog, sorry I dont have Davis book. Is it possible for you to post that picture. It might be he is wearing a Luft pullover sweater underneath the jacket. Regards Bill

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Bill,
Here's a link to the image I was referring to:
http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1130759882.JPG

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Here's Walter Schuck..
Nice to see he had 2 of these jackets..

Jos.

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This Sunday I revisited the museum. The jacket is now safely shown inside a glass vitrine ( they now realise how rare it is). As I had a better look this time, I noticed that the jacket was fitted with a complete white liner, and that there were remains of grey wool on the collar. I could not find traces/remains that a white/silver eagle was once fitted to the jacket(which was replaced by the grey and blue one). I have shot some detail pics which I shall post in the coming days. BW Roger

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Hello Roger, we look forward to your excellent contributions. Here is a pic that shows the 2 different styles of collars side by side. I believe the collar is the same velour type worn on the elect heated jackets. Thanks to Vomritter for the photo however Im not sure at this time how I aquired it. Regards BIll

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Ok, here are some pics. The jacket is now, after I told the museum of its rarity, kept well preserved after glass. So, all shots were taken through rather thick glass. Here is the eagle. BW Roger

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And a close up of the eagle. Don't know (I am a helmet collector mostly) if it was machine - or hand stitched. The fabric of the jacket is also visible in the 2 eagle shots. BW Roger

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A close up of the collar, note the traces of grey wool. Most of the collarpart of the jacket was orned of in the crash, or rotted away. BW Roger

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The jacket on display. BW Roger

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This one shows the outside fabric, aswell as the inner linner. The entire jacket was/is lined with a very white cotton (I guess)liner. Bw Roger

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Another close up. Note that the breast pocket is also made out of a white (cotton?) fabric. BW Roger

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Sorry, posted the wrong pic, here is another one.

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