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The German 98k bayonet frog can be found with rivets made of copper, aluminium or steel.

To my observation early frogs have copper rivets and late ones steel, but what are (roughly) the change-over years? I.e. from when to when copper, from when to when aluminium and from when to when steel?

it is not easy to say... because the differnet troops had differnet standards...of typs, colour, rivites etc. for example the Police usw copper/brass rivtes very long. The army frogs had until 1935 alu rivets und the luftwaffe use Copper/brass, together with alu ones, up to 1937.

Among the hundreds of original frogs I have in my collection, there is a standard:
Every frog from 1935 and earlier is copper.
Every frog from 1936 and after is aluminium.
Arnaud

As a general outline most of what is described above is OK. But there are some exceptions, and some mixed metals (rivets/washers) equipped frogs. And the parameters can be expanded to include things like brass washers. And blued, and phospahte coated steel. And uncoated (bare)steel, and even some painted ones, with the plain/bare steel ones being generally seen with the last issues. FP

This looks like it might be a very good discussion. Can you please add pictures ?

Thanks
Dave

I don’t have a lot of prepared images but here are few to start.

All of the below are Luftwaffe frogs with one of the copper/brass combination examples to the left. Then aluminum. With the later black leather one to the right having aluminum washers and steel rivets. (The Luftwaffe blue tropical frog to the far right can be seen with either an aluminum or a steel stud. Pictured here is the aluminum one.) FP

This R.F.Nr. coded 1944 dated frog is seen with mixed materials. FP

This German/Italian (combination) frog has steel rivets. FP

This (probable) late war field/small shop repaired frog was aluminum mounted. But now has steel rivets/washers attaching the new back piece (which appears to scrap leather, possibly from an old harness?). FP

Looking in my collection (many hundreds of frogs) it is a fackt, that some markes made cooper/brass until 1937. Police issue used Alu und copper after 1941.

alu up to 1935 is not correct. the most of copper/brass from 1933-35 is ok... but a minorty , most found on Luftwaffe marked frogs are found until 1937.

mixed materials are common since 1940/41... the rest of Alu quantits had been used.

my lastest frog is marked 1945 and used metal rivets.

the blue Luftwaffe canvas frog shon in the picture above is a copy.

Really? The frog has been a private collection for a number of years, and came from a good source. It must be a pretty good copy. It even has a few faint traces of Luftwaffe blue paint on the frog stud. And while it is in reasonably decent condition, it shows a fair amount of actual use consistent with other tropical frogs. And those who have actually seen it in person (including some having a considerable amount of experience collecting Wehrmacht combat items) have never indicated that they thought it was a fake. Nor do I. FP

The Luftwaffe web frog looks perfectly good to me from the photograph. It is exactly what I would expect to see of a used web frog.

Fred,
I've been looking for a fake Luft frog like that for quite a while. Send me your junk!

Denny, I know that you are making light of the situation, but I like my ‘junk’ .

While I really don’t have any idea what it was that prompted the “fake” comment. For comparison purposes here are some tropical frogs from an old photo shoot I did a while back to try and show some of the color variations. As a group the frogs pictured are circa 1942 and earlier. Included are frogs from multiple identifiable makers including those that are named, or have the Fertigungskennzeichen (maker codes). With the bulk of the frogs most regrettably having indecipherable or no discernible markings (the same kind of thing as seen with especially the more heavily used leather frogs). Not pictured as a group are later examples such as those with the R.B. Numbers.

A few general comments/observations: The example at the far upper left hand corner never had a tie strap and is probably quite early. Also seen is the steel frog stud version of the Luftwaffe blue (alongside the aluminum one) which may (or may not) be a little later. While some dye lots are fairly close in coloration obviously others were not. And a number of different styles of fabric weaving and dimensions are also evident. There is also quite a bit of variation with the frog stud holes - even with examples from the same maker. Also noticeable is the fact that while many frog studs are more or less centered, others are noticeably offset to one side. And pouch size dimensions tend to be all over the place with some seeming to be large enough for the model 98/05 bayonets. I would imagine that the time period, who the maker was, and the skill of the workers had something to do with all of the variations that are seen. FP

Very nice Fred! I like your junk too.
I have some of these but have never been lucky enough to score a Luftwaffe frog.

Hi Guys, In order to provide a more clear answer to Kilian's question, I will throw out my general rule as to the compostion of leather Wehrmacht S84/98 III frog rivets through the years 1934-45. 1934-1935:Copper with 1936 being a transitional year with most being aluminum in 1936. 1937-1941:Aluminum with 1942 being a transitional year with both Aluminum and Steel about equal in 1942. 1943-45:Steel
There are exceptions to all rules but I will submit that my rule will stand at least 90% of the time.
It appears that failures of the aluminum washers under extreme use and Aluminum's value as a strategic metal ended most it's use after 1942 as a leather joining material.
Here is my near mint 1942 frog with both aluminum and steel washers used with aluminum studs. Hope this helps! Jeff Bernsh---Owner Tenmile Creek Antiques Ltd.

I do like the idea of a plus or minus 90% “rule” for most of the frogs which are encountered.

Before this thread I had frogs sorted by type ie: Luftwaffe, Police, Navy etc. The thread has made me rethink that approach and I now use a date sort and am refining it a little to deal with the undated examples. As commented on, there are a number of exceptions which I think makes it even more interesting when setting the parameters. For example: In a quick resort I found two aluminum riveted 1935’s. A 1940 (or later) Police frog using copper rivets with brass washers. A pair of steel riveted black Luftwaffe frogs by the same maker in 1940 (one all steel and the other with aluminum washers). A 1940 dated frog with aluminum washers and copper rivets. And a 1941 dated frog with both aluminum and copper/brass rivets and washers. With all of the different makers involved it seems obvious that some had larger stocks of previously manufactured components than others. And that as they ran out of old stock began to use steel. I also tend to like the “strategic materials” argument a little more because when the frog studs (for tie straps) are looked at by 1942 the aluminum studs seem to have virtually disappeared.

Posted below is another exception: The “no rivet” frog (no holes, no evidence of rivets/washers) which came with my 1941 crs “Tr” marked bayonet, Which when I found it looked like it had been on it forever. FP

Hallo,

first the blue DAK-frog. Yes i think it is a pretty good copy. I see several. They were most made out of original green ones by coulouring (so the price is higher) .
Unfortunately the stitching is often not stainable, because it is colorfast. (.. so it is green... Original ones allways deliverd with blue stitching from factory.
The frog stud hole in the front is very big...

You also can read the Artikle of Franz Ehle in: Deutsches Waffenjournal (DWJ), 10/2003 ex Page 58. "Achtung, Fälschung" (Beware of Fakes).

the other one you show on the picture is like my one... i get two frogs from a paratropper how had joined the Afrika campain.

I get the webbing... and frogs in blue and yellow, the boucles and the bayonets.

he also carried yellow canvas belt and frog with a LW boucle with yellow canvas strap.

Luftwaffe used frogs in overview from right to left:

DAK frog yellow, DAK-frog blue, copper/brass 1935,
copper/brass 1936, copper/brass 1936 ( very rare long stiching, alu 1937, alu 1936, alu 1937, alu 1938, steel 1940, steel 1940 with hollow rivet inset short line of stichting, steel 1941, steel 1942, steel 1943, steel 1942 and steel 1944.


Many makers had quantetis of produced alu rivets
in stock... they used them until the alu ones are depletet.
Since 1940 the alu rivets...like alu boucles... had a Stop of producing. At this time always steel ones were made.

The chaning oft producing ist not the same as a stop of using by frog makers... alu rivtes in stock were used until they are depletet. So frogs exists, made after 1940, with alu rivtes oder mixed steel/alu rivets.

so... next example.

Modell98 frogs with strap used parallel until 1937 brass/copper and alu.

top line from right to left:

brass/copper Reichswehreagle navy stamped, brass/copper 1937, and brass/copper 1936.

The brown ones are not Luftwaffe modells... they are stock quantites of never black cloured army isse. all bear the mark B. or B36 / B37 of "Heeres Bekleidungsamt Berlin"

bottom line:

alu 1935, alu 1935 SS-marked frog, alu 1937 (B37), alu 1938 nazi-eagle marked navy frog, alu 1939.

up to the next:

frogs without strap army issu mosttime found with alu rivtes.

Luftwaffe ones with long third stichting until 1937 often found with brass/copper. The ones with short stitching with alu.

From right to left:

1.Very early Reichswehr frog from 1933 "B"-stamp, cooper/brass
2.alu 1935 painted black
3.alu 1936 stock example, unsued B-stamp
4.Luftwaffe 1936 brass/copper, long stitching
5.frog with strap, 1940, mixed rivets
6.+7. frogs with steel rivets 1942

1936 frog, stock, B stamped

Luftwaffe frog 1936 cooper/brass

So...next example.. police frogs.

you can not say, that the produktion "until 1935 brass/copper", until 1940 alu, than steel or mixed".

from right to left.

1. frog of 1925 with steel rivets
2. frog of 1929 copper/brass
3. leather frog 1936 alu
4.+5. A.Fischer 1937 Leather/canvas frogs in brown and withe with alu rivets.
6. frog out of 1940 with steel rivets
7.+8. Frogs from J.de Valk Adam. made 1941/42 with copper/brass.

The army issued frogs from Valk ADAM to the same time 1941-1943 were produced with steel rivtes.

italian captured ones allways exist with steel rivets.

End of war production, poor quality ones out of used leather pices were made with steel rivets.

from right to left:

1.made out of poor quality pig leather, painted black, steel rivets

2.code stamp marked with date 1945

3. ink stamp marked with date 1945

at last... some examples with hollow rivets.

from right to left:

1. police frog out of 1936 with steel hollow rivtes

2.+3. RzM frogs, possible SS or a other staat organisation, nickel plated steel hollow rivets...one with brass, the other with alu stud.

4. Brass hollow rivets, produced 1941 by v.D.Horst Leiden.

5.+6. late war R.B.Nr. marked frogs with and without strap, hollow steel rivtes.

7. frog leather/canvas, late war time, found on kommercial bayontes, maby produced in czech for the support of german allis in the east. Not common in german army.


not shown: many frogs with brass hollow rivets were produced before the war.

i forgot the pic

only less examples of german altered austria/czech frogs most can be found without rivets or with steel ones. rarly such frogs can be found with alu rivets.

in every pic... the frogs shown from left to right!!

Hello gardist,
You do have some very nice frogs. I used to get DWJ, but have not done so for a while and don’t have the issue you mentioned, so I cannot comment on it.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. If all (or most) of the other (non-blue frogs) from that period have white or light stitching. Why did they make an exception for only the blue frogs?? Might that not be a sign of something being dyed using modern dyes? Also, these frogs are over 60 years and have a tendency for the color fade somewhat - especially if they were used. Is that also not a factor?. As for hole size. Sometimes they get a little stretched from having a bayonet in them. And sometimes it seems to be from something the sewing machine operator did, as seen from the wide variety of hole sizes in my earlier picture.

Also, as a general matter, they did not normally date stamp reworks. Therefore I would tend to be suspicous of such frogs, and even more if they had 1945 dates.
Regards, FP

Not pictured as yet are the frogs for use with the folding shovel which often use a different kind of rivet/washer assembly. FP

Regarding J de Valk Adam. J. de Valk was a Dutch manufacturer based in Amsterdam. A´dam is a Dutch abbreviation for Amsterdam.

How do you tell the difference between army, navy, police and luftwaffe frogs? By the markings is obvious, but are there other ways to tell?

hmmm. the pic is not the best. the stiching of the blue one is a little bid darker because of a litle bit dyrt. the edges are used... tomorrow i will make better ones.

the 1945 frogs are original. with a little bit luck in germany you can find. i found them with serval other stuff in a farm...dirty but in a good shape. nerver been sold... not from a trader.
one has a strap cut oft.

They did sometimes use a darker thread, and the Luftwaffe with the steel (tie strap) stud to the left uses a blue thread around the perimeter of the hole. And at times it seems they used whatever seemed to be at hand. Like the black thread on this late issue tropical frog, which also uses a doubled over lightweight canvas instead of webbing. FP

so now i take time to post pics of the frog. After i get them...i try to clean it carefully.
but the stitching now is more brown than white.
a litle bit damaged und some parts of the stiching is gone.
The frog is the same type and colour shown at Ehles artikle.

A little better look at the front of the pouch. I thought I had an image from the front of the entire frog, but if I have it, I can't find it at the moment. FP

else...

Gardist, With your latest images your frog looks a lot more like my steel stud mounted one. Take a look at my first image of the tropical frogs and the two Luftwaffe frogs together. Then to the right look at the others with lighter and darker thread for the holes and straps. If a tropical frog was postwar dyed it is going to be a solid blue not a variety of colors. And looking at the tie strap again Does it look like it has been dyed, or is it slightly faded in places like your frog?

PS: (The picture was taken with fluorescent lighting so the color is slightly off.) FP