UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum SA-Reserve II.

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Don Scowen started this thread with this image.

Thanks Don, --dj--Joe

reverse

Fancy meeeting you here Don! Nice detail on the pin!

Thats a lovely little pin you have got there Don.

Thanks lads.

Hi Dion, it's a small world isn't it

Cheers
Don

The SAR is a nice pin. It's unusual to find one with a nice maker's mark like yours.

By the way, most people don't realize the central device is an old style military hat (shako).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gold Party Pin Guy:
The SAR is a nice pin. It's unusual to find one with a nice maker's mark like yours.

By the way, most people don't realize the central device is an old style military hat (shako).

---

Stephen.
I've had one of these for years and always wondered what the middle bit was. You're right - it's a shako! Do you know what significance the wings had for the SA reserve??

Nice score Don.

I didn�t notice that before, but now that you mentioned it! Thanks for the info Stephen.

Good addition to your collection.
What is the makers mark if you don't mind? What I can make out looks like a crown atop a shield enclosing a letter.

--dj--Joe

Well I never..... A shako indeed, so it is, I hadn't seen it either, thanks Stephen.

The maker mark is HB under a crown, I couldn't get a decent shot of it, sorry.

I also have a neat pic of one in wear.

Cheers
Don

I suspect the wings are simply eagle wings taken from the Hoheitsabzeichen (party lapel eagle), and have nothing to do with flight.

Next I suppose you'll want to know what the G-H-L on the early Frauenschaft badges stands for (and JR Cone says are unknown)

OK Stephen, you knew I'd bite didn't you?

I've often wondered what this stood for..... Please enlighten me

Cheers
Don

Hi Don,

Sorry to be such a tease.

Cone in "One People, One Reich" says no one knows what the G-H-L stands for on 2nd pattern Frauenshaft badges. Drum roll please...

It stands for "Glaube, Hoffe, Liebe", otherwise known as "Faith, Hope & Love" taken from Saint Paul's Letter to the Ephesians (often mistranslated as "Faith, Hope & Charity").

One collecting mystery down, a couple million to go...

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for clearing that mistery up for me. As I mentioned before, I had often pondered over the meaning of those letters.
Cheers
Don

How does this one look ? The enamel is good, you'll see a glare under the swastika (from the scanner).

thanks

Jamie, from what I see it appears good. Congrats.

--dj--Joe

Same with me, looks fine. I haven't yet seen one of these that looks like it's a fake. bet they have been thou'.....

Cheers
Don

Thanks for the comments.

Any others out there? Different maker marks?
Show 'em if ya got 'em.

--dj--Joe

Gents,

I'm glad to be able to add to this interesting thread.

Don - same maker but check out the differences.

Best to all!

Bill

2/2

Nice one Bill.

I doubt that the differences are as much as they seem. When I took those images 3 years ago I was trying to get used to a new camera & took the pix in direct sun

Bye the way, not sure if you saw it on an recent post but I think we can now safely say that this maker was Hermann Bauer, Schw�bisch, Gm�nd. They used an identical mark on their silverware.

Cheers
Don

I'll take this opportunity to add my images. Same maker though.
Obverse.
--dj--Joe

Reverse.
The spiral marks on the pin are different.
--dj--Joe

Nice one Joe.

In fact, now that you mention it we have three different knurling types with the same maker. Mine, Bill's & yours are all different.

I have often suspected that many of the badge/pin manufacturers bought in the attaching pins & fixings in bulk from specialist makers. Somewhere (although at the moment it escapes me exactly where ) I've seen a period add for them... I'll have to have a hunt around.

Cheers
Don

Just picked up this one for Christmas. Can give more details, particularly regarding the maker's mark when it arrives. ~ Ian

Reverse

Now that does look interesting, can't say I've seen that mark before.....

Looking forward to seeing more.

Cheers
Don

Don, did you have any luck finding the period add for knurled pins? Sounds interesting.

Ian, could you give us a close up of your maker mark? It's a new one for me.

--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by derjager:
Don, did you have any luck finding the period add for knurled pins? Sounds interesting.
--dj--Joe

Indeed I did Joe, but only about two weeks ago!!

It was an ad from "Der Uniformen-Markt" shown in Frank Heukemes book on the General Assault Badge to illustrate the same point.

Here's a scan from page 414 of Frank's book.

Here's a closer shot of the ad.

As it's taken from a period paper the illustration in the book isn't that good due to the "dot print" used during that period.

Again credit to the book "The General Assault Badge" by Frank Heukemes.

Thanks for passing along this information Don. I wonder if there are other manufacturers adds out there somewhere that show different pins and pin retaining bases?
This is most usefull. I recognize most of these attachments. I can picture them now on enamel badges, stickpins, tinnies, red cross and RAD broaches etc.

Regards,--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Don Scowen:
Well I never..... A shako indeed, so it is, I hadn't seen it either, thanks Stephen.

Hello there,

Well, I don't see it and would appreciate some help....

William Kramer

William, perhaps this picture seen head-on will help..the depiction of the Tschako on the pin is actually closer to a French style than German..image from military heritage.com

Here's another maker I found in my files. Don't seem to have the actual pin anymore

Cheers
Don

Rev

Maker mark �

Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?

Funny that there aren't more inwear pictures of this pin about.

--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by derjager:
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?

Funny that there aren't more inwear pictures of this pin about.

--dj--Joe

Ah, now that would be telling

Here's another pic I have.

. That's a nice picture. I do not recognize the cap emblems.

--dj--Joe

Here you go. It looks slightly different but I think it's the same type. I think that the outer line/border of the EK has blurred out in the period image......

Ahh, RKB. I never would have gotten that.

Thanks Don.

--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by derjager:
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?
--dj--Joe

Here you go Joe......

Other side

mark

Was hoping it would find a home.

The nagging critter in the back of my mind tells me I have seen the AE mark before somewhere, someplace, but where?

--dj--Joe

Any thoughts as to who the maker 'S' surounded with dashes was?

--dj--Joe

Unable to post a picture of my SAR now, but it has the standard Ges. Gesch on the wings, but the maker mark is the letter C superimposed over a T or F (or a T or F over a C). Haven't the slightest idea of who it is, and always thought the design was a searchlight beam.

Dan

Dan, what comes to my mind is Franke & Co. It would be F,C,L in a circle. L = L�denscheid.

--dj--Joe

Joe - Thank you for your reply.

It probably is Franke & Co. In taking a close up look with a loupe, it appears to be a definate "T" (with a small cross mark halfway up - so most likely really an "F"), with a smaller "C" superimposed on it. No circle or "L".

As far as I am concerned, Franke & Co. - F&C is it.

Thank you again, Dan

Here is a drawing of the FCL mark attributed to Franke & Co.

Joe -Thanks for the picture - it's worth a thousand words!

Looking at the pin, the "F" leans slightly to the left, and the drooping lip on the top right end of the bar is barely visible. Center bar is in the same place but is equal on both sides. The "C" is the same right down to the small lip on top. But there is no "L" or circle.

I'm comfortable with Franke & Co. since the designs are really very close. It is probably just a trade mark variation, possibly because of the small available size area on the bottom of the pin.

Thanks again, Dan

Back around, hoping for more makers marks.

--dj--Joe

Might as well drag this back into the light of the day. 2024 smile

Any new ones?

--dj--Joe

Do you know whether the SAR II were covered by the RZM Joe? All the pins I've ever seen have individual makers marks. However, whilst flitting around the net the other day I came across one with an early transitional RZM mark.... RZM 96.

Questions;

1: The RZM mark looks as though it may have a lazy M so is it a fake?'
2: If not a fake, when did the SAR II disappear? Did they go around the time the RZM was introduced explaining why we do not see the pins marked with it?

Don

can't answer your questions but.. I had a couple of these over the years. One was with a RZM.. It sure enough looked authentic.. Like this one,,good twist on pin,,details good. Can't really see the enamel but mine was real enamel..

I'll have to do some reading up on the subject of your question Don.
As to the lazy M in RZM I have noted some sloppy letters in the GES. GESCH. markings of some badges. Almost free hand lettering.

--dj--Joe

Having a time nailing down a date for the decree of a visible RZM copyright protection symbol/code, on Reichszeugmeisterei controlled items.
1934 for the codes? 1929 for the establishment of the Reichszeugmeisterei body? Will keep reading but it would be good if someone more knowledgeable on the subject would comment.

1934, with Röhm's death. The influence of the SA began it's decline?

If I recall correctly I have seen a document with dual service images of the SA reserve II and the Kyffhäuserbund or the NSRKB. (?). Not sure where I saw the document. (If I could locate it there might be a visible date).
--dj--Joe

Neither here nor there, I have read that the SA Reserve II was for SA members over 45 years of age.

The more I read the more confusing it becomes with date timelines and the absorption of other units.

--dj--Joe

That's very interesting Gaspare. I don't suppose by any chance you can remember whether it was a transitional (like the one above) or whether it had the M1 designation?

Thanks Joe, sorry I was out all day yesterday so unable to partake in the discussion....

I've had a good hunt around the net & with dealer sites to see whether that are any documents. I'm starting to suspect that they were a short lived group.... I found an invitation to join the SAR II dated 1934 (sign up was 10th Feb through 12th March)...

There are a few membership cards shown on various sites. Interestingly, I could not find one dated past July 1934.... This site has a short description on the group towards that bottom of the page & also shows two documents (dated June & July) https://moonwheel.eu/dues%203/sub%20nsdap%207/sa.html

Going back to my original question. I believe that the SA were covered by the RZM, so it is possible that the SAR could have been as well, although generally vet groups were not. It could also be that as the piece above is transitional, the manufacturer made a mistake & used an RZM number in error, making it an anomaly...

Good find on the documents Don. I never did locate the one I recall. Must have sold.
I did read that the badge was approved in March 1934, but cannot confirm that.

--dj--Joe

Whilst meandering around the net I came across another RZM marked piece, RZM 39. Quite roughly marked on the reverse, but otherwise looks OK.

Don,
looks OK to me. Good sighting.

--dj--Joe

Badge | The badge for the members of the SAR II, designed by Colonel (ret.) Reinhard as the colonel commandant of the SA Reserve II and federal leader of the Reichskriegerbund, in the design of a Landsturmtschako from the time of the Freedom Wars with a swastika and two wings, was approved by the Supreme SA leadership on 25 March 1934. Reinhard owned all rights to this badge, it was protected by law and could not be obtained commercially

Delivery problems on the part of the manufacturers meant that the badges were not delivered until 24 June 1934. As the majority of SAR II men had further requirements in addition to the pins supplied free of charge, all sales outlets authorised by the Reichszeugmeisterei, which was responsible for production and distribution, were approved for sale in agreement with the Supreme SA leadership. The procurement office of the Reichskriegerbund took over the production and distribution until the end of October 1934. These badges bear the inscription "GES. GESCH." for "legally protected" and the mark of the manufacturer licensed by the Procurement Office of the Reich Warriors' Union. In the bulletin of the Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM) No. 23 of 3 November 1934, the RZM announced that the badge could now only be obtained from the RZM and that it must bear the protection mark and the RZM approval number on the reverse. Procurement via the Reichskriegerbund was no longer possible. The membership badge was only available in silver colour. Gold-coloured pieces are forgeries of the original badge.

The quality of the badge repeatedly caused major problems for the wearers and after numerous complaints, the Reichskriegerbund pointed out in the "Parole Book" that the badge was a relatively delicate object that had to be treated accordingly. If the metal plate on the back of the badge had become detached due to faulty soldering, it was exchanged free of charge. On 1 December 1935, the Oberstlandesführer published the measures for the dissolution of the SAL (formerly SAR II) on 31 December 1935. The badge with the winged tchako and swastika was no longer allowed to be worn. Permission to continue wearing it as a commemorative badge was refused by the Supreme SA leadership.

1. Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid
2. Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid
3. Ferdinand Hoffstädter, Bonn
4. Hermann Bauer, Schwäbisch Gmünd

unknown marker

unknown marker

Two tinnies with SA-Res II sign

Peter, very informative. Thank you. I understand the timeline now. You have answered many questions.
Two of the unknown makers are new to me. ( With a vivid imagination one looks like a Chimera standing on an E ).
Do I see correctly that the second tinnie/day badge has a 1936 date?

--dj--Joe

Hi Peter,

Welcome back!

This is great information, thank you so much. So if I understand you correctly RZM marked pieces were available from November 1934?

Don

Good Morning. Yes, RZM started in November 1934. And, the second tinnie has a date 1935.
Its nice to be here again!

Thank you for your quick reply Peter. I learn so when you are here

Peter, thank you.
--dj--Joe

Bringing this topic back to the top. Anyone have anything to add?

--dj--Joe

Joe,, at this years MAX I saw SO much U.S. stuff.. Still plenty of nazi but gone are the days you would see 3 dealers with just nazi stic pins! They like everything else getting hard to find...........

The E under the Griffin is Erhard and son A.G. Schwabisch Gmund. I will take a look at the others when I can get some time. Best!

The last row, second to the last. Do you have a better picture can't see all of it. It could be Wilhelm Binder. Best!

I do believe you are correct on both. Erhard and son A.G. Schwabisch Gmund and Wilhelm Binder GmbH - Schwäbisch Gmünd. Excelent detective work.

--dj--Joe

Thanks Joe

Thank you. I incorrectly assumed the maker mark on the Wilhelm Binder piece was WTB. Now I see it is W (hammer) B.

--dj--Joe

Sorry to come in late, but the very last unknown looks to be the Raymond & Nichols mark....

Don, I can't make out an R on the example in question. I recall you have a sharp image of the Raymond & Nichols mark. Did Raymond & Nichols have variant marks to your knowledge?

--dj--Joe

It may not be for them, I’ve not seen one with the circle before, but the large “N” looks to have a letter “R” in the centre.

This is the only image I have access to at the moment.

The second B inside a circle looks to be Bauscher & Co. Gmbh

On the first page, has that mark been identified? Better closeup please.

I'm sure I have a reference that shows some attachments. I wll have to dig it out.